My Illarion Suggestions

[Arkadia Misella]

After playing this game since 2003 and lurking in the backgrounds of the forums for just as long, I am going to toss a few suggestions out. These are not intended to be flammed, insulted, or even cheered for. These are merely here for others to contemplate over.

These come from solely me, a normal player, who does not recieve gm support for anything and probably never will.

#1) Illarion is not based on skills or experience points.

PART A - VIEWABLE SKILLS

This has long gone out the window. Anyone looking through the forums is bombarded with exactly what numbers their attributes should be. In game they have color meters to go by to tell how far along they are in gaining skill in a certain aspect.

Rid the system of the colored words. If players need to know how good they are at something, they can use a little logic.

"Charlie can kill a skeleton with 3 hits from his club, yet I need 20 to kill him. Obviously he is better at club-warfare than I am or he is much stronger."

I am sure there would be many complaints at the end, but this alone would help stimulate RP more than leaving it there.

The developewrs also need to keep their numbers a little more hidden. All that can be seen right now is


You need 30+ in the magic stats to do this and that
and
To be a thief you should have at least 15 in this and at least 10 in this

Keikans long post on breaking down the numbers and how well you would perform in that area was perfect. Simply you were weak, average, or strong in that area. As long as a list like that is kept CURRENT AND UPDATED there should be no problems at all.

You could even post each attribute (Strength, Agility, Perception, etc) and keep a CURRENT AND UPDATED list of what exactly each one will affect.
Example : Stength : Affects damage dealt with swords, maces, axes, clubs. Affects lumberjacking, mining, yadda yadda yadda.
You get the idea, right?

Illarion has long since left this ideal place where XP and Skills mean nothing. Anyone with half a brain can easily tell not only do 80% of the players cherish their skills and strive to gain more, but the developers are making it extremly easy for this to happen.

#2) Magic, Fighting, Trade occupations, Heroes, and Villians

This is a large one, but it intertwines. Hopely some system like this would actually help cure some of the powergaming, extremly make RP more rampant on the island, and make life a little more interesting for us illarionites.

I will lump Fighting, Magic, and Trade occupations into one class at the moment, to simply make this easier. For now we can call this Occupation.

Any occupation has its level of difficulty. They are broken down here (I know, this is so dumb sounding and a complete oxy moron to what I wrote above but I persoanlly cannot explain it any easier way) by XP points

Simple Tasks -0-100 XP- are easily done and even the unskilled can actually pull it off once in a while.

Moderate Tasks 101-200 XP - Require some skill in that specific area, but with practice can be performed with some bit of ease.

Difficult Tasks 201 and above XP - Require an expert touch in the specific area. Only a few in the known lands have mastered these specific tasks.

Now then....
Anyone can do a simple task, and each time they accomplish it they gain XP. Once they hit 100, they are isntantly capped and can gain no more skill. They cannot preform any moderate tasks until another player "Yes, a human player" teaches them how using your teaching system. From there they can go from 101-200, being able to accomplish the moderate tasks. Once at 200 they are again capped until a GM has recognized their ablilty to RP extremly well and have noticed the player is more of an addition to illarion than a hinderance. Once bumped up they can continue on.

Examples :

Magic -
Simple = Simple illusiary tricks such fake fireballs, opening/shutting a door/etc.
Moderate = True healing spells, True destructive spells, Teleportation
Difficult = The few remaining most powerful spells that even the GM's are wary about giving out.

Fighting =
Simple - grab an item and whack something with it tactics, whether it be a sword, axe, pitchfork, chicken, etc. No true artform to it.
Moderate = Tactical training such as parrying forms, the most efficient ways to use a shield, how to looks for weaks spots on an enemy, etc.
Difficult = Godlike in their ability to weild a weapon. They have an uncanny balance and always know exactly when to strike.

Are you getting the idea....this system lets anyone in the game do anything they wish to do...to a point. If they wish to advance another player must teach them how. If they wish to become renowned across the lands, they would need to rove themselves to the mods/developers themselves.

This would help create help create a better Hero/Villian system. Villians can actually have a chance to become a little more powerful without walking on eggshells the entire time. Also now not everyone good walking around is a true hero. Simply because you powergame at the skeltons should not make you into a hero status. Hero status should be more of a reward for great roleplay, and not for how many monsters you have killed.

#3) Racial ablities

If you guys can prgram each race to start with their own racial language, you can start each race with other starting attributes I am sure.

Dwarves can be more magic resistant. Elves naturally have the ability to wield a bow. ETC. This is limitless and still unknown as to why it has not be done yet.

#4) GM's/Dev's creating more RP

Do not get upset yet, but read first. We all know the GM's plan these great elaborate quests and they are usually all good fun. For this, I thank them.

I do however think they need to stick their hands into the pot a little more. Perhaps actually have a King in Northerot/Silverbrand/Trollsbane that is GM controlled. Control a little more of the politics. I know you want the players in control, but frankly it does not have seemed to work.

I feel if the right people could get behind this, they could add alot to Illarion. Have these people take the game and view it as a story, and begin adding chapters. Get some racial tensions built up. Start a true War with true battles. Have the GM king walk around in town with his GM guards to make an appearance. If done correctly, and the key word there is CORRECTLY, the world of Illarion would be a much more interesting/fascinating place. It would get more of a story book element to it as opposed to feeling like you are just playing yet another "The Sims" game.

I am tired, so that is all for now.

[Fooser]

I think there should be a way to view skills, maybe back to the library book which stated a certain level ('journeyman'), but to get rid of it 100% would leave the person in the dark a bit.

For creating RP I've never liked the idea of GM controlled rulers, especially when its the player who made the town (which is most of them, even the new Varshikar, which was repaired by player resources and RP). But on a side note, I think too much attention is placed on the big quests, and not on small things, even if it's just a 2-5 minute thing, it's something in between the larger stuff, and could make those periods less 'sit around doing nothing with no one talking/interacting' as we all encouter about 90% of the time logged in.

[Lrmy]

First off, I am not trying to criticize, but I am trying to post my views on all this.

Skills -
You mentioned powergaming?
I think powergaming is repeating a skill for a long period of time yo learn in it a video game. Yes, it is in every game. Actually, it is the objective in most games. In Illarion we balance true role play and skill gaining into something everyone that seems to spend time at and play enjoys. I do not think powergaming is even a slight issue right now in the game. Besides, why the muffin do you care if so and so spends eight hours killing skeletons a day? You could ignore them and go role play if that is what you are in the mood for.(I have had a fighter for 3 months, and I do powergame him by my definition I posted. He has less than 70% skills. It used to be one month for 100% skills back when you started playing, so I do not get why you complain about it now...ahh well.)

I agree with Mr. Muffin about the...

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject:
I think there should be a way to view skills, maybe back to the library book which stated a certain level ('journeyman'), but to get rid of it 100% would leave the person in the dark a bit.

For the occupation thingy you posted.. I fear we would have the exact same problems we are having now with the magic system if we had the teaching system for every skill.

Player-run towns are more fun for me. It is more realistic. I think of Illarion as like a country being built. So many leaders and legal systems have failed, we just haven't found the right one for our unstable little country. Don't get me wrong, I do want more large roleplay events in game. Just not political leader gms. A short tyranny of the island from a quest wouldn't hurt much though.

[Ellaron]

#1) Illarion is not based on skills or experience points.

PART A - VIEWABLE SKILLS

Rid the system of the colored words. If players need to know how good they are at something, they can use a little logic.

"Charlie can kill a skeleton with 3 hits from his club, yet I need 20 to kill him. Obviously he is better at club-warfare than I am or he is much stronger."

Sorry it won't work. Player X will just keep at it until he can kill skeletons in 3 hits instead of 20. There will always be players who need to be the best, in whatever skill. RP'ing being the best is soon sorted by someone who has the skills to prove otherwise. The only answer, if you're serious, is to take away skills altogether or give everyone max skill in everything. Then all that's left is RP. Nothing to work for.

#2) Magic, Fighting, Trade occupations, Heroes, and Villians

I will lump Fighting, Magic, and Trade occupations into one class at the moment, to simply make this easier. For now we can call this Occupation.

Any occupation has its level of difficulty. They are broken down here by XP points

Simple Tasks -0-100 XP- are easily done and even the unskilled can actually pull it off once in a while.

Moderate Tasks 101-200 XP - Require some skill in that specific area, but with practice can be performed with some bit of ease.

Difficult Tasks 201 and above XP - Require an expert touch in the specific area. Only a few in the known lands have mastered these specific tasks.

Now then....
Anyone can do a simple task, and each time they accomplish it they gain XP. Once they hit 100, they are isntantly capped and can gain no more skill. They cannot preform any moderate tasks until another player "Yes, a human player" teaches them how using your teaching system. From there they can go from 101-200, being able to accomplish the moderate tasks. Once at 200 they are again capped until a GM has recognized their ablilty to RP extremly well and have noticed the player is more of an addition to illarion than a hinderance. Once bumped up they can continue on.

Sorry but I dislike this idea as well. Popular people such as yourself, and I mean that with great respect, would prosper while new or unpopular people would not. I do not let people I have RP'ed with know any of my other characters just so that they do not treat me differently. If someone knew it was me playing 'X' they would be far more helpfull. Who cannot imagine the scenario:
player 'X' "Greetings, I'm looking fo a teacher to help me become a better Smith".
Player 'Y' "Do not disturb me foolish one. Can you not see I'm busy?".
Player 'X' (("Hey Sam it's me Bill)).
Player 'Y' "Hmm, Perhaps I am too abrupt in my old age. You seem to have something about you. Come And I'll help you."

#3) Racial ablities

If you guys can program each race to start with their own racial language, you can start each race with other starting attributes I am sure.

Dwarves can be more magic resistant. Elves naturally have the ability to wield a bow. ETC. This is limitless and still unknown as to why it has not be done yet.

This I like.

#4) GM's/Dev's creating more RP

Do not get upset yet, but read first. We all know the GM's plan these great elaborate quests and they are usually all good fun. For this, I thank them.

I do however think they need to stick their hands into the pot a little more. Perhaps actually have a King in Northerot/Silverbrand/Trollsbane that is GM controlled. Control a little more of the politics. I know you want the players in control, but frankly it does not have seemed to work.

Again we disagree. The only people who can create the RP is "us" the players. The Devs can create situations that make life more interesting or difficult but the RP still comes from "us".

I think the main obstacle to RP is the size of the island. When we were all bundled into a much smaller space we had more people to RP with. Think about it. We have:
SilverBrand.
Varshikar.
TrollsBane.
Vanima.
BloodSkull Cave.
Greenbriar.
Lizard city?
Druid place?

All a fair way from each other. Divide the max number of players, with bias towards TB and GB, among that lot. You'll be lucky to bump into 4 people on a good week. Not easy to have a King and 2 subjects. And don't get me started on the cliques.


!! Arkadia Misella Quotes heavily edited by me, but I hope the spirit of the messages was kept. If not then you have the full message above.!!

[Poots]

1. I agree with fooser that not knowing anything could get frustrating. maybe a simpler system? the game could just automatically rank you as good or bad (maybe a few more terms than that but you get the idea)

2. I don't know anything about the teaching system, but I love the idea of gm's rewarding good rp.

3. sounds good.

4. I think this could make an interesting story, yet I also don't want all the towns controlled by gm's and us not having a say in anything. It would be perfect if a gm got elected (without everyone knowing he was a gm) into the position, but since that isn't easy, the only thing I can think of is leaders having visions, or help from the gods/gm's? I don't know how muc they help them now, or even if they do at all.

[Gro'bul]

#3) Racial ablities

If you guys can prgram each race to start with their own racial language, you can start each race with other starting attributes I am sure.

Dwarves can be more magic resistant. Elves naturally have the ability to wield a bow. ETC. This is limitless and still unknown as to why it has not be done yet.

I heard once something like this already exists, not sure if that was true or not, but they said it only applied to skills.

[Nalzaxx]

Racial Abilities already exist.

[Thorvald]

#4) GM's/Dev's creating more RP

Do not get upset yet, but read first. We all know the GM's plan these great elaborate quests and they are usually all good fun. For this, I thank them.

I do however think they need to stick their hands into the pot a little more. Perhaps actually have a King in Northerot/Silverbrand/Trollsbane that is GM controlled. Control a little more of the politics. I know you want the players in control, but frankly it does not have seemed to work.

It's not like some of us GMs don't want it. It's more like ~90% of the players are against it. I agree with Fooser on his point, that most of the towns were built by players and just having a GM popping up and suddenly rule it all, would be unfair and probably frustrating.

In this case I could only imagine Trolls Bane run by a GM. The town would really need it as well. But apart from creating RP, it would also destroy RP, because where would be the putschs or revolts? The attempts to get off of the current government/king to set a new one in place. Players would think: 'Well, it's run by a GM, we can't take over anyway'. - and you probably really can't.


Edit: I mean, if the current government again fails and does not work out in Trolls Bane (which yet doesn't seem to be the case). We could still go for a try and see what happens and how players enjoy it or not. Nothing wrong with try.

[Cassandra Fjurin]

i really agree in point one viewable skills. But because of another point. If you see a concrete number you don't know when you are the best, you only see you better than xyz but not what is the maximum. In the current system you know, if its totally blue you have full skills. But in a numeric system you don't know which number is the best.

I really like to bring up a old tibia story from Martin, he said a long time the most players thought skill 100 is the maximum in tibia. They trained for over a year to reach skill 100 but then someone reached skill 101. if you don't know when you are the best its enough to know you are currently the best. Nobody knows if there is a possibilty to reach level 200 if you are currently with level 101 the best. So most people start powergaming until they are really good but not until they reach the main goal because nobody knows the main goal

[Llama]

Point 4 is to utopic...

The others I can agree on, i infact lyke the seperation of skills; would make sooo many people happy

Number 1 I can't understand/. sorry

[Korm Kormsen]

Arkadia,

Once at 200 they are again capped until a GM has recognized their ablilty to RP extremly well and have noticed the player is more of an addition to illarion than a hinderance.

wouldn't that give a lot stress for the staff?
from players, that do not accept, that their RP is not found adequate?

Perhaps actually have a King in Northerot/Silverbrand/Trollsbane that is GM controlled. ... I know you want the players in control, but frankly it does not have seemed to work.

here i strongly disagree.
in the time i have played, we had good and bad rulers. like in RL.
stephen rothman was a strong leader, who had TB in his grip.
Dusty bottoms was a diplomatic leader, who lead the briar in the direction, he wanted, with most of the citizens not even understanding, what he did.
Nalzaxx led the temple in a souvereign way.
thurbert and now thorwald are leading silverbrand effectively.

we as well had Fooser, and Grant and his alterego.... (whatever he was called)

and in varshikar or orc-city everything grinded to near no movement.
but look nearer: varshikar consisting of only two active chars is starting over. and that orc-lady seems promising as well.

just because Trollshome has been a battleground for strong egos since stephens downfall, does not mean, that leadership by players has failed game wide.

korm

[pharse]

I don't like the idea of GM controlled leaders. But perhaps the current leaders of the towns/of revolting groups could discuss OOC the way of further politics in order to plan and create some conflicts.

[Aegohl]

Hopefully this helps this proposal. If not, feel free to ignore:

A tested and workable way for GM's to be more active inside the game:

A method that I invented to keep myself active ingame when I was a GM is that I renamed my GM character and changed his race to reflect a certain character. The purpose of this character was the entertainment of players. I developed several routines in which he would interact with players before going ingame with him.

Once ingame, first I would see who's online. I would skip around from player to player invisibley for a bit, just to make sure there's no trouble going on.

Then I would stop where there was a particularly large group of players and this is where I would use one of my routines and interact with the players with this special character. Once done, I could dissapear again and check on players invisibley again.

However, occasionally you'd find players doing something that might inspire a quest, and I would try my best to interact with players that way also.

In the end, this method made the usually boring task of sitting in the client and babysitting into a fun opportunity to play a character, interact with players, and an opportunity for quests on the fly. My only regret is that I didn't have time to pass this off to the new GM's just as I learned questing from Estralis before. Well, better late than never.

[Keikan Hiru]

The flaw in your idea was the character ID.
Since the ID is static, once introduced to a character this character would always see this name, even after you changed your characters name again.
Thus creating confusion amog the players, when spotting a known characater in a new shape.

[Aegohl]

I fixed that by not changing the character back again. The character was static and returned and people recognized him. When I did GM work I used the same character only invisibley, so no one saw him.

[Fooser]

I don't like the idea of GM controlled leaders. But perhaps the current leaders of the towns/of revolting groups could discuss OOC the way of further politics in order to plan and create some conflicts.

Or just randomly accuse people of tampering with the electoral process