A rant about wrestling

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Lrmy
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Post by Lrmy »

Cuthalion wrote:You didnt? you must be blind;):P Try hiting somone while wearing heavy metal armor one day. And please film it. im sure it will be a great sight.
Remember this is a video game and is extreamly far from anything realistic :P
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

yup, likily in a rl scanario if i had to pick mostly chain. but definatly something thicker for my extremities since they act as both my weapon and defense. which is how my character dresses as well. light easy to move in chest peices. thicker armor at the legs and arms since those are most likily to take damage while in a fight. thats the entire of of greaves and bracers after all.

oh and if that person is wearing the same heavy metal armor i'm sure they aren't that much faster.
Last edited by Athian on Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cuthalion
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Post by Cuthalion »

Taliss Kazzxs wrote:I find chainmail useful myself.
Chainmail would be aceptable, but you arms would probably be free, to let you hit better? Well anyway. It is not bloody likely an unarmed combatant would beat an armed one in a DUEL.

Better dodge
Bigger chance of critical
More dangerous critical
???
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Cuthalion
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Post by Cuthalion »

Athian wrote:yup, likily in a rl scanario if i had to pick mostly chain. but definatly something thicker for my extremities since they act as both my weapon and defense. which is how my character dresses as well. light easy to move in chest peices. thicker armor at the legs and arms since those are most likily to take damage while in a fight. thats the entire of of greaves and bracers after all.
Ever seen a martial artist dress like that? You would loose pretty much all agilty.
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Taliss Kazzxs
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Post by Taliss Kazzxs »

With the current system thats the only choice they have :/
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Cuthalion
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Post by Cuthalion »

Taliss Kazzxs wrote:With the current system thats the only choice they have :/
True, but that is because everyone walk around armed all the time. A martial artist would not do well on a battlefield after all?
So, seems most agree on the critical and dodge thingy?:):D Lets hear what the gms say then?
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Mr. Cromwell
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

I think unarmed is fine the way it is; or at least no serious boost is required.

Only way that I am personally going to accept such serious "realism" boosting of unarmed is if, unarmed fighters are going to die from one swing of sword like they "realistically" would. There is no reason to ask for "realistic" improvements for one very specialised part of the combat system, while on the other, the damage-effects of ARMED combat are completely pathetic in comparison to the "realistic" sitiuation.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Arms and legs would definatly be covered. i'm sure you can punch someone just as hard if not harder with metal gloves as opposed to bare hands.

I think the three things mentioned would be enough to improve unarmed combat, but the only way to know would be to test it out.

and to state one more time. unarmed, not unarmored. Cromwell, read a bit eh. anyone unarmored will die from one hit of a sword. Weapon in hand or not, if you got hit with nothing on your body to defend it, you die.
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Korm Kormsen
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

one philosiphical point:
unarmed combat is a result of societies, where the posession of arms is restricted.
on Gobaith arms are not restricted. so there should be no reason for the secondbest way to fight.

i personally have not used anything heavier, than a machete or a sword-cane.
the point about the swinging momentum with a sword is not complete.
with a machete (ca. 70 cm/28" blade) if you miss, you just change direction in the same movement. the backlash is not as hard, but hard and dangerous enough, not to give an opening for the opponent.

allthough it is very tiring, you could hold a machete in constant movement, out of which hits are possible.

and, fighting against an unarmed opponent, you don't need to try to hit hard.
you just aim for giving a superficial wound, everytime he reaches out with arm or leg.
one of my trainers called that the salami tactics. slice after slice....

to the sword-canes, they are nearly as elegant and quick as rapiers.

from all the points made, i could agree only with better dodging for an unarmed char. (if he is light or unarmoured too)
but giving every unarmed fighter more possibilities for critical hits is totally unrealistic.

and an unarmed person walking in heavy armour seems very rare to me.
apart from the fact, that wearing armour robs the unarmed fighter of his sole advantage - speed.
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Cuthalion
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Post by Cuthalion »

Mr. Cromwell wrote:I think unarmed is fine the way it is; or at least no serious boost is required.

Only way that I am personally going to accept such serious "realism" boosting of unarmed is if, unarmed fighters are going to die from one swing of sword like they "realistically" would. There is no reason to ask for "realistic" improvements for one very specialised part of the combat system, while on the other, the damage-effects of ARMED combat are completely pathetic in comparison to the "realistic" sitiuation.
We just want to make it a tiny bit realistic. If not, we might just as well make unarmed combat as good as armed.
Athian, an unarmed fighter using as much armor as that is no martial artist at all. And i think he would not be very efective anyway.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

well good thing this is a fantasy game after all, because i'm speaking of illarion. as i said no one wears heavy metal irl now a days. Thusly i thought it was clear that i was speaking of an ig standard, but it seems due to the fact that we have so much ooc/ig mixing in this conversation, it's probably hard to tell whats what.

chain mail+ metal gloves+chain leggings and knight boots isn't nearly that heavy compared to most armor ig but would be protection enough to live through a few sword blows and manage to block and dodge without loosing a limb. weapons are always going to be stronger offensively then hand to hand combat, that one thing that definatly shouldn't change IMO.
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Cuthalion
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Post by Cuthalion »

Korm Kormsen wrote: but giving every unarmed fighter more possibilities for critical hits is totally unrealistic.
I agree on all but this:
It depends if the oponent has armor. If he has not, there are tons of ways to make him faint or even die. I think even more ways than with for example a dagger. But this is no point. If we want to be realistic about it, there is no way unarmed combat can compete with armed combat. If we want to be as realistic as posible, and make it more balanced, give them more dodge, better critical, and more criticals.
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Korm Kormsen
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Post by Korm Kormsen »

chain mail = 20 - 30 pounds
metal gloves = 4 - 6 pounds
chain leggings = 15 - 25 pounds
knight boots = 6 - 10 pounds

...and then kick him right on the nose!

enough said, i think.
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Cuthalion
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Post by Cuthalion »

There is no way you can compare an armed fighter like that with a martial artist anyway. If you want to arm your martial artist like that, you only lack the sword for him being a normal warrior.

Good night all:)
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Skaalib Drurr
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Post by Skaalib Drurr »

Cuthalion wrote:You didnt? you must be blind;):P Try hiting somone while wearing heavy metal armor one day. And please film it. im sure it will be a great sight.
Why would you be able to swing swords and not hit someone firstly?

Secondly, I agree qith Mr C, arguements of realism can have no bearing in illarion. IT IS NOT REAL LIFE, and therefore the same arguements cannot be applied.
Instead it should just be done on fairness, and I agree it should be weaker because you do not need to buy weaponry, however you still must buy armour etc, and so perhaps it should be strengthened a little more.
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Cuthalion
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Post by Cuthalion »

Hiting with a sword while wearing heavy armor, is very diferent from trying to kick and punch in heavy armor. There is a reason why martial artist never weared armor. But as you said, Illa is not ment to be likely, but if you play a martial artist like that, what is the point anyway. Oh, and Skaalib, that reminds me: Lizards have claws. They should have some serious bonuses in hand to hand, right?
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

@ Korm
chain mail+ metal gloves+chain leggings and knight boots isn't nearly that heavy compared to most armor ig
in case your still missing that point...
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Mr. Cromwell
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

Not if they don't get serious downsides for some other stuff..
It's all about fairness, man. :wink:
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Taliss Kazzxs
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Post by Taliss Kazzxs »

Like I said as the game is now there is no way to play an unarmed fighter with out wearing atleast chain or you will be hacked to peices no matter if the one with an axe, dagger, sword, staff, has any skill. If he says his char wears this or havier its because there is no other option and wearing lighter just does not let martial art role play happen.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

like many a thing in game, i find Taliss to be completely correct in that point.
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Taliss Kazzxs
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Post by Taliss Kazzxs »

I played a monk char, me and fellow monks trained much to perfect and later teach his own form of fighting . The reason being adressed is why Taliss is no longer with the monks and is now often swinging a sword, and thats because wrestling is just not quite there yet. By "there" I mean where monk type role players can be apeased by the combat system and not feel like there getting raped by noobs or others with no training.

*edit What if only highly skilled or near mastered chars of wrestling can "deflect" parry weapons?
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Jori
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Post by Jori »

Since the original problem was that a noob player with no skill beat somebody average at wrestling, I think that there should be a small chance that with low skill and usinga weapon you hit yourself. This would be realistic as well as balancing. In real life, people new to the sword (or axe, etc.) had a decent chance of hitting themselves. My granpa owns a christmas tree farm, and in the summer somebody uses a machete to trim the trees so they look good. Each of my mom's 4 brothers hit themselves with a machete at least once when they were first starting to use the machete to trim. Therefore, it is likely that somebody new with a sword might hit themselves once in a great while. So a small chance to hit oneself while having a low skill level would be realistic as well as balancing.

Also, a note about unarmed fighting and physics: F=ma (force = mass x acceleration) means that although wearing more armor would make your hit slower than no armor or light armor, the increase in mass would be proportional to the decrease in acceleration meaning that the total force would be the same whether or not you had armor on. People with heavier armor would be easier to dodge since they are slower, however. Since the force would be equal, momentum would also be equal. Which means that armor would only change speed, not striking power. So it would perhaps be slightly more difficult to hit somebody while wearing armor, but the hit would be just as hard and you would be better protected having plate mail instead of leather. Since punching power is based entirely on physics, it would be nice if people would back up what they say with proof. Somebody else (I think Athian) did this and, to my mind at least, it really added power to his argument. So, while armor would make you a bit slower and less flexible, you keep the same striking power while gaining defense. So basically, by wearing armor, one is sacrificing mobility for defense. It's the same reason why the army uses tanks instead of humvees with 120mm cannons on them. While tanks are slower, they are also more defensible. And less prone to recoil from the gun as well since they have a greater mass.
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Gro'bul
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Post by Gro'bul »

Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:Found these things:


As late as 1415, the hail of arrows created by massed ranks of thousands of longbowmen was capable of winning battles against plate armoured French knights at Agincourt.
This is incorrect. The reexamination of the iron arrow heads and steel french knights wore was proven it wouldn't penetrate readily enough to kill many people. The arrows would have slowed them down, it was rather attributed to the fact that the light archers were far more mobile in the mud, they even tested mud samples from the correct depth at the exact place the battle happened. Given the Topography formed a funnel to which the french were funneled into, gave the light and mobile english archers with cloth shoes the ability to out maneuver the French for a crushing defeat. The longbow slowed them down for sure, but nothing could penetrate steel plate readily until the crossbow was introduced. There were even armors capable of deflecting gunfire at the dawn of the use of gunpowder. Modern handgun munitions are deflected by this armor too. The reason the english employed so many longbowmen is they were half the cost of a man at arms, royal records showed this.

The superiority of the longbow is defunct and was thoroughly tested by the "battlefield detectives" as close as possible. They even went to a real blacksmith for the stuff they used.
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Taliss Kazzxs
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Post by Taliss Kazzxs »

Taliss Kazzxs wrote:As always when we discuss the wrestling skill we start on debates that really have little relevance to how the devs should balance the game.

First off we don’t know if the devs care enough about this post, or well they could think the systems fine as is and we could just be blabbing for no reason. The players of unarmed fighters say its a bit unbalanced and its up to the devs if they care. Like I said there is a few solutions:

1.leave it alone
2. increase dodge chance
3. increase damage
4. have crits do more dam or come more often

In all discussions about real life will more than likely have no weight here and discussing new scripts such a disarming is pointless. I personally would like to have to go with the suggestion of 4."better crits" or 2. "dodge".
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

I was going to read this whole thing, but Ariens in a funk and is the new ragging nitram.


So,

Why don't you clever martial artists go find a jock with a rather large knife, and try to beat him up. Chances are, he will stab you in the face. Are their disarming techniques? sure. Do they always work? No, not really. Why were many invented? To disarm asian soldiers, who were typicaly not armed in large, metal, outfits.

In short, illarion is not supposed to be realistic, but some form of realism is nessecary. And if you wish to continue to argue, I say kill the retarded sims voting system, the whole regional system, governments, and every other semi realistic thing in the game that balances it, just because its not a realistic game.

This is not dragonballz

This is a fantasy roleplaying game, whats more popular in fantasy roleplaying games, pikachu the monk, or conan the barbarian?
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Taliss Kazzxs
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Post by Taliss Kazzxs »

...what the smile are you talking about. I dont think that aided this conversation in the slightest bit aside from mentioning cartoons and giving you a place to post. We dont need to talk about realism any more "jocks stabing people in the face" we need to simply discuss game balance.
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Farel Leonsepth
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Post by Farel Leonsepth »

Ok game balance

Wrestling should be worth nothing

As the point of any game is to get items, and wrestling can be performed anytime anywhere.

Keep it nerfed, keep it low!


(( But im a lizard * rwar * slash, slash * But ive got plate armour?? ' no no plate can be eaten by lizard claws or fists * slash slash * ))


Unarmed is bollocks ;]
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

Taliss Kazzxs wrote:...what the smile are you talking about. I dont think that aided this conversation in the slightest bit aside from mentioning cartoons and giving you a place to post. We dont need to talk about realism any more "jocks stabing people in the face" we need to simply discuss game balance.
You want to flame? I can flame too.

I just choose not to.

I used to flame, my young nooblet, many, many moons before you ever thought of this forum, now, I am mellow, so to you I say

How does that aid this thread at all? Thanks.


Thank you Farel for this one simple sentence:


Wrestling should be worth nothing
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Cuthalion
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Post by Cuthalion »

@Jori: Only corect if the loss of acceleration is the same as the gain in mass... You simply dont do martial arts very well in heavy armor.

But anyway: I play an armed fighter, if unarmed combat got a little better, I would hardly care. On the other hand, it would make the unarmed fighters very happy. so why not? Most rpg's have some unarmed fighting class, wich does as well as the armed fighter classes.
Why shouldnt Illa?
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The Returner
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Post by The Returner »

Because Illa would have no economy if everyone realized they could beat each other up for free?
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