A rant about wrestling

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:41 pm

Well thats the thing about fantasy. everyone should be able to be what they want to be, but like the magic system (when it's not fucked up) it should be possible to become a great martial artist in illar but be difficult to do so. What wrestling the skill needs is more potential to be a great offensive skill, without making it completely unblanced.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:42 pm

Athian wrote:without making it completely unblanced.

Noting in Illarion is really balanced.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:42 pm

Mr. Cromwell wrote:Rapier? Can you get more elegant than that?

Chords?

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:43 pm

Knocking weapons out of hand thing would be nice, but with a good hit, a sword, mace or what ever could do it too.
But, scripting scripting....

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:44 pm

Kevin Lightdot wrote:Knocking weapons out of hand thing would be nice, but with a good hit, a sword, mace or what ever could do it too.
But, scripting scripting....

In fact, it would be a lot easier to do with a sword or mace I think.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:45 pm

Maybe if a high wrestling skill could get a weapon out of some one's hands then the weapon should be able to cut off the wrestler's hand.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:46 pm

How about giving unarmed fighters a better critical chance? and making their criticals hurt more?

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:46 pm

Depends where you hit and how hard.

Plain steel swords and such as in that time where really fucking heavy, and rather hard to aim with I'd reckon.

However, with a little hand eye coordination, and a good punch at the wrist or such(If it's unarmed) would I think do the trick.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:48 pm

But it would be very hard to get close enough. And the force of your sword hiting your oponent's would maybe even be enough in itself.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:49 pm

Kevin Lightdot wrote:Depends where you hit and how hard.

Plain steel swords and such as in that time where really fucking heavy, and rather hard to aim with I'd reckon.

However, with a little hand eye coordination, and a good punch at the wrist or such(If it's unarmed) would I think do the trick.

If that were true than an army of unarmed men could defeat an army of swordsmen in the time(wonder why that never happened).

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:49 pm

Cuthalion wrote:As you know they exist, I supose you know one?;) There is a league for this these fighting arts. First place I think, is something called Crow Maga. Wich is from somwhere in europe. Seckond is plain boxing...
This is just like people thinking that asian katanas (I know katna simply mens sword, but you know what I mean) were so much more efective than european longswords, wich is not true.
The grass of your neighbour is allways greener...

What you wrote here is really hard to understand...

You don't consider boxing a martial art? It's unarmed combat Same thing applies. someone with short arms and a small frame probably wouldn't be the most ideal boxer. there are simply some people who will be able to do certain things better then others.
Whats anything got to do with european vs Asian arts? Two of the most effective martial arts ive seen are russian and African in in origin. Martial arts doesn't just equal asian

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:50 pm

Yes those swords are really heavy, but if you trained for one day after day you wouldn't feel it just like if you trained weights every day.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:52 pm

Because boxing is mainly about being strong and taking a lot of pain. Asian martial arts are pretty much about hiting voulnaruoble areas, but it hardly works very well. A boxer would have no chance against somone armed, or at least a very small one.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:53 pm

Lrmy wrote:
Kevin Lightdot wrote:Depends where you hit and how hard.

Plain steel swords and such as in that time where really fucking heavy, and rather hard to aim with I'd reckon.

However, with a little hand eye coordination, and a good punch at the wrist or such(If it's unarmed) would I think do the trick.
If that were true than an army of unarmed men could defeat an army of swordsmen in the time(wonder why that never happened).

Any place that is armoured is largely unable to be hurt.

I was talking about a 1 on 1 fight, also.
In a huge fight, there'd be difference.

And of course, a successfull hit with a blade does much.
But, of course it has happened that hand-to-hand pwned some dude with a blade.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:54 pm

true, but that doesn't stop the law of inertia. If you put all your force into swinging a bat and miss, does the force behind the swing suddenly vanish? Nope your body is continues to move, even when your used to a certain weight doesn't mean you beat out physic's

@ Lrmy

illarion hand to hand people would probably wear steel gloves. And no they wouldn't defeat an army of sword weilding people swinging many weapons at once, one on one might not be to impossible.

Arien Edhel · Post by **Arien Edhel** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:00 pm

@ Grant

If you don't stop your massiv spamming you will risk another boardban.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:00 pm

Athian wrote:true, but that doesn't stop the law of inertia. If you put all your force into swinging a bat and miss, does the force behind the swing suddenly vanish? Nope your body is continues to move, even when your used to a certain weight doesn't mean you beat out physic's

Well, that depends on the blade. Allso, the unarmed fighter would not have a very long time to hit the armed warrior who is out of balance. If you add that with the armed warror being armored, the unarmed fighter's odds do not look good. However, it is posible, and if the "warrior" was not armored, the unarmed one would have a lot better chance.
Again: What if the unarmed fighters had a bigger chance to do criticals, and their criticals hurt more?

Taliss Kazzxs · Post by **Taliss Kazzxs** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:02 pm

As always when we discuss the wrestling skill we start on debates that really have little relevance to how the devs should balance the game.

First off we don’t know if the devs care enough about this post, or well they could think the systems fine as is and we could just be blabbing for no reason. The players of unarmed fighters say its a bit unbalanced and its up to the devs if they care. Like I said there is a few solutions:

1.leave it alone
2. increase dodge chance
3. increase damage
4. have crits do more dam or come more often

In all discussions about real life will more than likely have no weight here and discussing new scripts such a disarming is pointless. I personally would like to have to go with the suggestion of 4."better crits" or 2. "dodge".

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:04 pm

first thing to remember is there unarmed, not unarmored, so we have to people who generally have the same options in defensive gear. and not much time doesn't really matter to much. a few second is more then eough time if you know what your doing. since we're talking about swords generally the rule applies.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:05 pm

Dunno on the Crit thing, but it has a point.
+ an unarmed fighter would pretty obviously try to hit those small, unarmoured parts such as the face.

And to my knowlage, any swords they had back then where heavy, a friend of mine has a full steel dagger with a 15 cm or so blade, and even the force on it drags on a bit(Yes, I'm only about 15, but still, a sword is a lot heavier.)

And the unarmed fighter, would as I see it have plenty of time.
The time is the time between hits, and with most weapons that's a while, no?

(Yarr, took a little while to post itself)

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:06 pm

Taliss Kazzxs wrote:As always when we discuss the wrestling skill we start on debates that really have little relevance to how the devs should balance the game.

In all discussions about real life will more than likely have no weight here and discussing new scripts such a disarming is pointless. I personally would like to have to go with the suggestion of 4."better crits" or 2. "dodge".

I agree: Better crits.
More crits.
Better dodge.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:08 pm

then id say.

slightly more damage, Slightly mind you

and agree with the rest above.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:10 pm

Kevin Lightdot wrote: The time is the time between hits, and with most weapons that's a while, no?

Acctually it would be even more time, as he misses and looses ballance.
But in real life the sword wielder would kill the unarmed man if he DID hit. I do not say that it should be like this in Illa, as the fighter has less to gain, so should the unarmed. Facts are that unarmed men very seldom would win a fight against an armed enemy in real life.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:11 pm

Not really, since he'd have to regain his balance before hitting again, no?

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:13 pm

Kevin Lightdot wrote:Not really, since he'd have to regain his balance before hitting again, no?

Not if he hits what he aimed at. It is like when you walk down a stairway, and you think there is one more step than there acctually is. you misscalculate, and likely fall.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:15 pm

But in real life the sword wielder would kill the unarmed man if he DID hit

keep in mind that we already know that sword had difficulty piercing thick knight armor. in irl today people don't wear armor. Major difference, again both people are armored in our scenario. For some reason everyone seems to think unarmed fighters are walking illarion naked.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:19 pm

Athian wrote:
But in real life the sword wielder would kill the unarmed man if he DID hit
keep in mind that we already know that sword had difficulty piercing thick knight armor. in irl today people don't wear armor. Major difference, again both people are armored. in our scenario. For some reason everyone seems to think unarmed fighters are walking illarion naked.

An unarmed fighter would not use more than leather armor. A sword would have little or no problem penetrating it. Add that with him not being able to block, and the armor taking some of his dexterity. Seriously. in real life an unarmed combatant would have a tiny chance. illa is not real life...
In real life the unarmed would have many advantages, but would loose a duel most likely. These advantages are hard to represent ingame, and so they should get some others instead.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:23 pm

who says they would only use leather armor? i didn't see that written in the rules of illarion? unarmed people may only use leather. can you post a link? i didnt see that as an irl law either.

Taliss Kazzxs · Post by **Taliss Kazzxs** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:24 pm

I find chainmail useful myself.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:25 pm

You didnt? you must be blind;):P Try hiting somone while wearing heavy metal armor one day. And please film it. im sure it will be a great sight.