the 'suggested' classses

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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Accuracy, Critical percentage, Parry percentage slightly, possibly damage taken and Damage dealt.
Speculations don't help, I know the use of perception in combat and will revise the fighter classes according to this.

By the way, +1/-1 changes are minor changes, everybody can create a char like he/she wants to. The classes are just general guidances, so you can estimate which attributes are important and which are not.

Concerning the barbarian: Dexterity is useful for swift weapons like daggers. A huge club of devastation needs strength much more than dexterity, thus, a barbarian does need STR at max.

The fighter classes are not that big a problem, the mage classes cause much more trouble - I hope those who wrote the concepts for the upcoming magic classes can tell which attributes are important. For bards, willpower, dexterity and essence will matter with willpower being the most important attribute.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Estralis Seborian wrote: By the way, +1/-1 changes are minor changes, everybody can create a char like he/she wants to. The classes are just general guidances, so you can estimate which attributes are important and which are not.
we know. the archetypes are merely suggestions anyway, so it doens't hurt to fiddle around with +1/-1 to much. pluse racial bonuses already make differences. but even a minor change is a change after all :wink:
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Nalzaxx
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Post by Nalzaxx »

Speculations don't help, I know the use of perception in combat and will revise the fighter classes according to this.
Erm, Please tell us then, so we don't have to speculate.

It just highlights the fact that we have no idea what each stat effects.

DEX does? Chance to hit, speed of attacks? Effects using two weapons at once? Does it do anything for parry, dodge?
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Lrmy
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Post by Lrmy »

Athian wrote:Old knight Archetype

STR: 14
CON: 14
DEX: 14
AGI: 12
INT: 7
WIL: 9
PER: 7
ESS: 7

New knight Archetype

STR: 14
CON: 13
DEX: 13
AGI: 12
INT: 7
WIL: 6
PER: 13
ESS: 6

seems a bit better. i'll wait for some opinions.
The other variable you need to consider in a fighting character is the weapons and armor they will use. For instance those stats would be not so good for a concussion user.

STR: 14 (+2)
CON: 13
DEX: 13(-2)
AGI: 12 (-2)
INT: 7
WIL: 6
PER: 13 (+2)
ESS: 6

I think that would work much better for concussion.
Nalzaxx wrote:
DEX does? Chance to hit, speed of attacks? Effects using two weapons at once? Does it do anything for parry, dodge?
Dex helps parry, but perception seems to more. Dex seems to help with slashing where Perception seems to help with concussion.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

not true. the stats are fine for concussion fighters. already tested that one myself and it makes no difference what weapon type there using. it's generally the same effect. the only difference comes in what kind of enemy your fighting.


also don't forget that you can use other concussion weapons other then staff and hammer. clubs, maces, morning star (short version), morning star (long version). and any mix of those.
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Nalzaxx
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Post by Nalzaxx »

Dex helps parry, but perception seems to more. Dex seems to help with slashing where Perception seems to help with concussion.
This is still speculation though, field trials have far too many random variables. And we still dont know to what extent they effect things anyway.
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Cliu Beothach
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Post by Cliu Beothach »

I wasn't stating that the system aids that use of a warlock, but the post before it seemed like as a stand alone character, they are useless when fighting a seperately made character. I was just pointing out my opinion on how they should be used and not that this is the way it is.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

your point was noted, but the simple fact is thatyour way of seperating two types of skills makes mid classes even weaker and more difficult to play.

think of it this way

Mage uses magic which is effectively 100% of it's class use

Fighter uses Melee which 100% of that class use

Mid class uses:

50% magic (any system) + 50% melee which equals 100% of its class use.

in order to effectively use all the classes potential mid types must be able to use both skills in conjunction, because one skill compensates for lack in another. the penality is that it's a hundred times harder to do. using one skill type at a time is like using half your character at a time.
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Cliu Beothach
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Post by Cliu Beothach »

If you just want to swing a sword and shoot a fireball at the same time to get the same effect that you have from a "pure" class, then whats even the point of having a middle class?

Middle classes shouldn't be about being able to stand up to the pure, or else its just redundant. Its like adding a new highway to reach a place that already has two uncrowded ones.
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Grant
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Post by Grant »

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Arien
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Cliu Beothach wrote:If you just want to swing a sword and shoot a fireball at the same time to get the same effect that you have from a "pure" class, then whats even the point of having a middle class?

Middle classes shouldn't be about being able to stand up to the pure, or else its just redundant. Its like adding a new highway to reach a place that already has two uncrowded ones.
so according to you, because multiple options can be used to reach the same goal, there's no need for any other options at all. i really hope you don't live by that kind of rule...

next, i can tell you know next to nothing about the magic system. even if a warlock swing a sword and cast a fireball at the same time. he or she would probably still do less damage then a pure class. but again since you've never played the class i guess you wouldn't know that, or much anything on the matter in that case.

so ya know.

real damage spells take time to can't and can't be cast while your your catching a beat down in melee combat. not to mention i doubt many have the constitution to stand around failing casts and continue to try. the power of the classes comes from being able to make a a choice between what combat option you use when, (without having to make any massive changes to your equipment). the penality to this is lower grades of eqiupment and less power in either individual role.

you must not play alot of games either, because no matter what game you go to, any list of classes with fighter in them, usually have one rundandant goal. "kill things, get stronger, kill bigger things." why just because there are different methods behind doing the same thing makes you feel it's wrong, i don't care to try and understand..
Last edited by Athian on Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cliu Beothach
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Post by Cliu Beothach »

Nevermind, it seems you don't understand (I can play the condescending part too, ya know). Mix classes should be special, not just a different name for the same effect. They should be tougher to "get the hang of", but still valuable when known how to use properly.

Thanks for telling me how to live.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Cliu Beothach wrote:Half classes always have been difficult to play, and I feel they were meant for a reason not to use their abilities at the same time, but to exploit the fact that they have 2 abilities. Now, they may not have the same potential but they have much versatillity. They aren't to be used as a formidable stand alone character, but a strong point in a group.

They have a buffer between each ability, but still they have both abilities. It is this which is to be used as the advantage, not to use at the same time. The deal with battle mages, is "mage" magic is offensive, and often times more active, while the other magics are geared toward more passive effects. Battle mages would seem pretty useless, alone (and sometimes in a group), but this is because you are merging two offensive skills. Its a bit redundant, but not useless.

this your idea of a special class...of course nothing you said here, makes them special at all, just pathetic....
Athian wrote: lets say with your style of play your deugoning in the crypts with some friends as a battlemage, in order to be useful you must 'switch' between classes. this requires you, if you are wearing any armor or weapons. to take all these items off, and switch to all your magic based items. meaning you have to stop whatever your doing mid battle and change. now mind you you can't just change gear, as items in your bag will still effect you, you must now hand off your bag to a hopefully trustworthy person. and on the off chance that a sudden situation arises where they need melee back up you must reverse the whole process.

now at any given time between these two skills, you must deal with the fact that if you fail to be useful with melee combat you must stop and switch back to a mage configuration or vise versa. while you may have two skills both skills are much much weakers then those of the full blooded classes. which means even when you do which between either of them your character will only be fighting at half strenght of that ability, which may not be enough, but perhaps if you could use them in conjunction then you might be formidable enough for people to actually want to be around you in that situation.
this is me explaining exactly why and how the current way Illarion works doesn't support your idea.


this is you later.
Redundant,Redundant,Redundant,Redundant,Redundant,Redundant,Redundant,Redundant,Redundant
and claiming these classes should be special but never explaining how your method would be of any benefit to the classes. nor giving any idea's as to how exactly to make these classes special, so yea, you posting here is a bit...well...Redundant

oh and i said i hope you don't live that way, not 'you live that way', you put the statement in the completely wrong context. but oh well...back to topic.
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Cliu Beothach
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Post by Cliu Beothach »

I never brought into the discussion the current situation of illarion's magic and skill system. This is all hypothetical at first. To try and fix a problem without having a clear definition is rather pointless. I was sticking to the idea and not the current situation.

If you want a revamp of the system, you have to start from somewhere and get a clear idea instead of jumping into the details of the actual system.

Having a char with atleast 50% (when compared to pure) fighting and magic, is a speciality. While the CURRENT system doesn't allow it, having the ability to use them in a timely fashion (though not together) is a speciality. If a mage would have 0 fighting and a fighter would have 0 magic skills, then the battle mage would have its own class. While I'm not saying this is how I would like it to be exactly, it seems to be how you interpreted it. Yet, this is still a class with a special attribute.

I could go on, but it seems you are taking offense. I don't mean any.
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Grant
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Post by Grant »

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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Cliu Beothach wrote:having the ability to use them in a timely fashion (though not together) is a speciality
same point and case, timely fashion in the midst of battle would not force the character to stop, re-requip, and pass his other equipment to another source to store. or be forced withdraw and go to a depot.

again, you assume that battlemage classes his throwing ra kel qwan while melee fighting a warrior. nope, they usually DO ONE OR THE OTHER already, just without having to to what i said above. i see nothing wrong with that.

and again back to topic.
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Cliu Beothach
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Post by Cliu Beothach »

While the CURRENT system doesn't allow it,
having the ability to use them in a timely fashion (though not together) is a speciality.
After saying this, I'm done. I think we should see on the same page now.
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Again, the fighter classes are not a problem, the magic classes are. The problem is that there are concepts but until now, the persons who wrote these concepts didn't make up their mind about the required attributes. Or they don't tell us ;-)

Also, the crafters (including farmers) are a problem because crafting will be redone completely.

btw, the suggested classes are not a guide how to make a maxed / good character. Of course, the best fighter has STR and CON maxed, some points on AGI, DEX and PER and dumps the rest (well, not sure about INT, but WIL and ESS are totally useless for fighters as long as they don't compete with a bard - wait, no bards on Illarion ;-) ). A guy like Arthur the Knight is definatly not the best fighter possible, but the idea becomes clear.

I have revised the fighter classes according to the current fighting system, here are my results. The marked attributes are most important.

Arthur the Knight
*STR: 15
*CON: 14
*DEX: 13
*AGI: 12
INT: 7
WIL: 7
PER: 9
ESS: 7

Robin the Archer
*STR: 12
CON: 8
*DEX: 15
*AGI: 13
INT: 8
WIL: 8
*PER: 13
ESS: 7

Hugo the Barbarian
*STR: 18
*CON: 18
DEX: 7
AGI: 13
INT: 4
WIL: 11
PER: 8
ESS: 5

Also, here is the bard:

Luciano the Bard
STR: 6
CON: 5
*DEX: 16
AGI: 8
INT: 10
*WIL: 16
PER: 9
*ESS: 14

For all other classes, I need the input of the devs.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Whats the willpower for the barabarian used for? aside from that everything looks great. the best fighters now a days seem to need more then just max constitution and max strenght, since at the moment weilding two weapons is far more effective then bi hander weapon, and i believe thats a dexterity thing.

as to the other classes, i don't know how the paladin and ranger will be, but i've been told from the source that battlemage classes is not supprted by the current magic system and that there are no plans to fix this anytime in the near future. but assuming that this fact is already realized the priest magic system may actually turn out to be more balanced. here's hoping.
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Whats the willpower for the barabarian used for?
Nothing ;-) It is just the natural stubbornness - 11 is slightly above average, average is 10.5. One might distribute the attributes in another way, but for me, a barbarian is a uneducated guy, clad in fur who runs towards a dragon, swinging his club and doing a scary battle cry. A at least average willpower might fit this behaviour, no?

Many aspects about magic sucks the way they are now. But as we all know, our devs are more motivated to code new stuff instead of fixing old stuff. And, as we all know as well, fixing old stuff lead to even worse systems in the past...

btw, wielding two weapons is considered wielding a one handed weapon and another one handed weapon by the fighting system. Some penalties apply, but all in all, there is no difference when it comes to attributes between shield+sword and sword+sword.
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Post by Llama »

A barbarian would have a lot of will IMHO

Just for Rp reasons.

It takes guts to do mad things.

ADDED:

Luciano the Bard
STR: 6
CON: 5
*DEX: 16
AGI: 8
INT: 10
*WIL: 16
PER: 9
*ESS: 14

I don't lyke this much.. i'd say

More agility as well, and more intelligence, and less essence

A bard would travel around, and would learn a lot of things as he does so, and would need the agility for his travels. (RP wise)
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Of course, RP reasons might lead to other values. But the marked attributes - DEX, WIL, ESS - are the ones that will matter for bard spells. Thus, they are the ones that have to be above average.

Edit: So, less ESS in favor of more INT and AGI isn't reasonable.
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