I leave.

[Taliss Kazzxs]

wtf how did I post here?

[AlexRose]

wtf how did I post here?

You probably had this thread on reply in another window while trying to reply to another thread and posted it here.

[jregan91]

NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO Don't die on meeeee!

Wha?

Oh, reread the title.

NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO Don't leave meeeee!

[Gro'bul]

Sorry to see you go, best of luck.

[Lance Thunnigan]

*sigh* One of the best GMs ever leaves.
Whatever bro, best of luck in 'the real world.'

[Llama]

*sigh* One of the best GMs ever leaves.
Whatever bro, best of luck in 'the real world.'

*removes * "One of"
*removes* ever *replaces it with* always
*removes* 's' in leaves

[Arameh]

He wasnt technically a GM, he coulnt even access GM boards (Maybe cause he cared for players and as such making him see all the **** on there woulnt be too good for the staff.) Not sure my point is any clear but anyway... since we are at it I will do like Markous and just leave, same reasons as him, my main character already left anyway.

[Lrmy]

*sigh* One of the best GMs ever leaves.
Whatever bro, best of luck in 'the real world.'

*removes * "One of"
*removes* ever *replaces it with* always
*removes* 's' in leaves

That took me like 5 minutes to firgure out...well maybe one. And...Arameh...leaving?...hmm...

I am begining to think that the loss of th eaccount system is a good thing, because with it we might only have 20 people playing.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

*sigh* One of the best GMs ever leaves.
Whatever bro, best of luck in 'the real world.'

*removes * "One of"
*removes* ever *replaces it with* always
*removes* 's' in leaves

That took me like 5 minutes to firgure out...well maybe one. And...Arameh...leaving?...hmm...

I am begining to think that the loss of th eaccount system is a good thing, because with it we might only have 20 people playing.

looks very sad as she nods and seems at a loss for words

[Arameh]

Problem is, too many players in a RP game just dosent work, especially if there are too much and they are getting thought by other new players. Since the account system was removed, the following happened :

- SLIGHT decrease in overall RP

- SLIGHT increase in flames on forum

- Players beginning to care less and less about other players, as well as the whole game.

- Staff members becoming less and less caring about each players, since they are more, they dont really give a **** about each individual player anymore, we seen this with the recent bans.

- Lag, it was 'supposed' to get fixed, maybe it gets worked on but currently its horrible after 40 players, and we all know it can get way over that.

- How many old players left after the account system was removed and it was at least partly the reason? 5? 10? 15? 20? Well I dont give a shit if you tell me 20 players is not much, because an active, old player with good RP abilitys is at least 10 times the worth of a n00b that will stay. Why?! Because it will influence new player's RP, teach them the right way and THATs what makes the difference. But the staff only sees them as any player and dont even listen to them, they act like they dont give a smile about illa anymore, really.

- Overall RP again, we now must be dumb to tell that its easy to find someone to RP with ig, I dont mean the usual people you RP with everydays, I mean just someone unknown you want to RP with, loads of them played for long and cant even make #mes, seriously.


Now tell me, what the smile did removing that account system had as advantages? There are more players sure, but they are LESS good RPers than there were before the account system got removed. Why? Because they all fucking left from this n00bhole because of that, those that tell me overall RP ig is good are either new players that didnt see any better, or are just completely nut, totally. There were basically no advantages, its chosing quantity over quality, and in a RP game thats a shit ass choice to take.

Would be simple to make some account system, AT LEAST something, there were even people wanting to check the account acceptation things by free will. Many players left because of that and many more will, until it becomes Runescape, no RP games can get a too large amount of players, its just stupid to even think it can work. I dont think I will come back unless something major is done, not that I think anyone cares in this community anymore where no one cares about anything.

In hope the staff will at least read this post (hightly unprobable),

Dan

[Lance Thunnigan]

Problem is, too many players in a RP game just dosent work, especially if there are too much and they are getting thought by other new players. Since the account system was removed, the following happened :

- SLIGHT decrease in overall RP

- SLIGHT increase in flames on forum

- Players beginning to care less and less about other players, as well as the whole game.

- Staff members becoming less and less caring about each players, since they are more, they dont really give a **** about each individual player anymore, we seen this with the recent bans.

- Lag, it was 'supposed' to get fixed, maybe it gets worked on but currently its horrible after 40 players, and we all know it can get way over that.

- How many old players left after the account system was removed and it was at least partly the reason? 5? 10? 15? 20? Well I dont give a shit if you tell me 20 players is not much, because an active, old player with good RP abilitys is at least 10 times the worth of a n00b that will stay. Why?! Because it will influence new player's RP, teach them the right way and THATs what makes the difference. But the staff only sees them as any player and dont even listen to them, they act like they dont give a smile about illa anymore, really.

- Overall RP again, we now must be dumb to tell that its easy to find someone to RP with ig, I dont mean the usual people you RP with everydays, I mean just someone unknown you want to RP with, loads of them played for long and cant even make #mes, seriously.


Now tell me, what the smile did removing that account system had as advantages? There are more players sure, but they are LESS good RPers than there were before the account system got removed. Why? Because they all fucking left from this n00bhole because of that, those that tell me overall RP ig is good are either new players that didnt see any better, or are just completely nut, totally. There were basically no advantages, its chosing quantity over quality, and in a RP game thats a shit ass choice to take.

Would be simple to make some account system, AT LEAST something, there were even people wanting to check the account acceptation things by free will. Many players left because of that and many more will, until it becomes Runescape, no RP games can get a too large amount of players, its just stupid to even think it can work. I dont think I will come back unless something major is done, not that I think anyone cares in this community anymore where no one cares about anything.

In hope the staff will at least read this post (hightly unprobable),

Dan

I agree with everything Dan. Completely.
And for smile's sake, I'd take time to read the goddamn applications if needed.

[Matholamew Dunsinane]

Problem is, too many players in a RP game just dosent work, especially if there are too much and they are getting thought by other new players. Since the account system was removed, the following happened :

- SLIGHT decrease in overall RP

- SLIGHT increase in flames on forum

- Players beginning to care less and less about other players, as well as the whole game.

- Staff members becoming less and less caring about each players, since they are more, they dont really give a **** about each individual player anymore, we seen this with the recent bans.

- Lag, it was 'supposed' to get fixed, maybe it gets worked on but currently its horrible after 40 players, and we all know it can get way over that.

- How many old players left after the account system was removed and it was at least partly the reason? 5? 10? 15? 20? Well I dont give a shit if you tell me 20 players is not much, because an active, old player with good RP abilitys is at least 10 times the worth of a n00b that will stay. Why?! Because it will influence new player's RP, teach them the right way and THATs what makes the difference. But the staff only sees them as any player and dont even listen to them, they act like they dont give a smile about illa anymore, really.

- Overall RP again, we now must be dumb to tell that its easy to find someone to RP with ig, I dont mean the usual people you RP with everydays, I mean just someone unknown you want to RP with, loads of them played for long and cant even make #mes, seriously.


Now tell me, what the smile did removing that account system had as advantages? There are more players sure, but they are LESS good RPers than there were before the account system got removed. Why? Because they all fucking left from this n00bhole because of that, those that tell me overall RP ig is good are either new players that didnt see any better, or are just completely nut, totally. There were basically no advantages, its chosing quantity over quality, and in a RP game thats a shit ass choice to take.

Would be simple to make some account system, AT LEAST something, there were even people wanting to check the account acceptation things by free will. Many players left because of that and many more will, until it becomes Runescape, no RP games can get a too large amount of players, its just stupid to even think it can work. I dont think I will come back unless something major is done, not that I think anyone cares in this community anymore where no one cares about anything.

In hope the staff will at least read this post (hightly unprobable),

Dan

/signed

[Kaila Galathil Travinus]

Problem is, too many players in a RP game just dosent work, especially if there are too much and they are getting thought by other new players. Since the account system was removed, the following happened :

- SLIGHT decrease in overall RP

- SLIGHT increase in flames on forum

- Players beginning to care less and less about other players, as well as the whole game.

- Staff members becoming less and less caring about each players, since they are more, they dont really give a **** about each individual player anymore, we seen this with the recent bans.

- Lag, it was 'supposed' to get fixed, maybe it gets worked on but currently its horrible after 40 players, and we all know it can get way over that.

- How many old players left after the account system was removed and it was at least partly the reason? 5? 10? 15? 20? Well I dont give a shit if you tell me 20 players is not much, because an active, old player with good RP abilitys is at least 10 times the worth of a n00b that will stay. Why?! Because it will influence new player's RP, teach them the right way and THATs what makes the difference. But the staff only sees them as any player and dont even listen to them, they act like they dont give a smile about illa anymore, really.

- Overall RP again, we now must be dumb to tell that its easy to find someone to RP with ig, I dont mean the usual people you RP with everydays, I mean just someone unknown you want to RP with, loads of them played for long and cant even make #mes, seriously.


Now tell me, what the smile did removing that account system had as advantages? There are more players sure, but they are LESS good RPers than there were before the account system got removed. Why? Because they all fucking left from this n00bhole because of that, those that tell me overall RP ig is good are either new players that didnt see any better, or are just completely nut, totally. There were basically no advantages, its chosing quantity over quality, and in a RP game thats a shit ass choice to take.

Would be simple to make some account system, AT LEAST something, there were even people wanting to check the account acceptation things by free will. Many players left because of that and many more will, until it becomes Runescape, no RP games can get a too large amount of players, its just stupid to even think it can work. I dont think I will come back unless something major is done, not that I think anyone cares in this community anymore where no one cares about anything.

In hope the staff will at least read this post (hightly unprobable),

Dan

I agree with everything Dan. Completely.
And for smile's sake, I'd take time to read the goddamn applications if needed.

Being a fairly new player, just here a few months now (this is not my original char), I would be for anything that would keep the older players from leaving adding that illarion needs all these experienced players and would not be near as good without them.

Another idea to think about adding onto this would be a forum set up for just the older players to post in, possibly if they have been in illarion over a year they could have access. This would help distinguish these PO's and would also be a forum the staff could listen to more closely as far as good general ideas.


PO of Kaila and formerly Gisela among others

[Fooser]

1. Flaming on the forums has been, a majority at least, from older players, or at least people who have been around long enough to have problems with others or various concepts. Flaming has always been around.

2. Slight decrease in overall RP = an argument that has been used almost everyday for years. If it was true all the time there would be zero RP going on, and we are not close to that despite what you may think.

3. Staff not giving more attention = well yes, more players will have that effect. If you want them to keep the same level attention with more players, that'd be multiplying the time they have to spend from their personal time, and I wont ask that of them. This just sounds like you don't want many people around.

4. About overall RP situation and talking to people, and doing stuff. It has been in decline for months, Ive noticed it early just because Fooser was a town leader for a couple months, people don't care about things anymore. From the scale of a town, right down to engaging in conversation on the street. But at the same time, the people complaining about it are still here, a lot of good people are still here. So let's be pro active about this, do stuff, even if you have to do it with no supoort, just do something. Engage yourself and others, that's how it was done in the past, and how it needs to be done now.

[Salathe]

Sorry to see you go =(

i think the problem is the uptight players that are stubborn to the issue. Go in game and RP the way you always did with other people in game.

[Lance Thunnigan]

i think the problem is the uptight players that are stubborn to the issue. Go in game and RP the way you always did with other people in game.

Kind of hard when there isn't anyone there, or who will react to others' RP.

[Salathe]

i think the problem is the uptight players that are stubborn to the issue. Go in game and RP the way you always did with other people in game.

Kind of hard when there isn't anyone there, or who will react to others' RP.

right, illarion is always either empty, or full of people that dont want to RP.

[Lance Thunnigan]

i think the problem is the uptight players that are stubborn to the issue. Go in game and RP the way you always did with other people in game.

Kind of hard when there isn't anyone there, or who will react to others' RP.

right, illarion is always either empty, or full of people that dont want to RP.

You know what I mean **** **** - Arien -

[Salathe]

no need to get your panties in a bunch

and dont be so hypocritical, you know what i meant

[Lianis]

Hopefully I can write a response that makes sense and won't be taken a dozen different ways, most wrong.

First off, the staff *does* read, and the staff *does* make note of pretty much every word said on these forums. Do we react to everything publicly? No. But we do read it, it does have an effect.

Do the staffmembers care less about individual players? I don't think so. But it's hard to be particularly caring or at least seem that way when even experienced players are breaking the rules left and right, or doing nothing but bitch and cut down the staff as a whole.

Yes, the lag is horrible. It drives me nuts as much as it does anyone else. But the person who was working on fixing the interface problem had a real life problem. We all want it fixed, players and staff alike.

The removal of the account system was a test, to see what happened. The results of this test have already come under discussion in the staff forums. But you must remember we're here as volunteers, and we all have lives, most of us have jobs, and so things take time.



Now, maybe I can counter with something.

Today, I went into the game intending to start a quest. Listening to all the complaining about monsters, not a single monster was to be spawned. I waited until there were plenty of characters online, over 40 if I recall correctly. I sent a total of five broadcasts telling people where the quest would take place; I had the help of a German GM who translated my broadcasts into German. I even set up a lovely storm to add to the atmosphere.

Three people showed up. After a short server crash, only one came back. And he ended up abandoning the main character of the quest in the wilderness.


Then there's the request I made about the tutorial island. I got not one single list like I asked. The only 'real' response I got, was almost word for word what I said I did not want. I got a couple of 'count me in' type responses, but not what I asked for.


How can you expect the staff to be excited and gung-ho and highly active, if that's the kind of responses they get, in game and out? You say that the players are getting discouraged by the actions and inactions of the staff... but keep in mind, it is a two way street; and every time you point a finger, one points at the other person... but three point back at you.

[Aurora]

1. Flaming on the forums has been, a majority at least, from older players, or at least people who have been around long enough to have problems with others or various concepts. Flaming has always been around.

2. Slight decrease in overall RP = an argument that has been used almost everyday for years. If it was true all the time there would be zero RP going on, and we are not close to that despite what you may think.

3. Staff not giving more attention = well yes, more players will have that effect. If you want them to keep the same level attention with more players, that'd be multiplying the time they have to spend from their personal time, and I wont ask that of them. This just sounds like you don't want many people around.

4. About overall RP situation and talking to people, and doing stuff. It has been in decline for months, Ive noticed it early just because Fooser was a town leader for a couple months, people don't care about things anymore. From the scale of a town, right down to engaging in conversation on the street. But at the same time, the people complaining about it are still here, a lot of good people are still here. So let's be pro active about this, do stuff, even if you have to do it with no supoort, just do something. Engage yourself and others, that's how it was done in the past, and how it needs to be done now.

signed and signed
yes I am bold enough to agree to this, even though it's only been about 6 months I've been around here.

There are some things which sicken me as well ... BUT the main and foremost fact is that this game is for free, the staff works for nothing, spend their time developing and supporting this game for you and me, while you are ingame and have fun or play some other game or do something else people do in their free time.
Another fact is that that RP quality does not mainly depend on the staff but on the players. Yes, I had to go through the account system, I even liked it and yes, I sometimes rather feel like kicking some new player's behind instead of interrupting an rp in order to explain things to him. But as I wish to keep Illa running, I take a deep breath and help ... again and again and again.

Those picking again and again on the staff should think about this: if you would have to read a board like this every day, with posts like "crappy monsters, shitty system, f***ing lag, stupid noobs" ... how long would you stay and work on all this, how long would you cope with all this?

Where people come together there are arguments, discussions, fights, it's always been like that. If everything runs smooth, they "sit together", talk about it, work their problems out, maybe go back to work after that. But it's not alyways like this, so people part in anger. This is their decision.

Just take it like it is: this is a game run by humans, humans do make mistakes. You don't have to take the "mistake" as final, but ... GOSH stop bitching around, stop picking on everyone having a different opinion and for God's sake, don't take it for granted that everyone supports you, that everything runs the way YOU want it. You are not the center of the universe.

This will most probably be the first and last time I will post something like this. Because those players I care about, whose opinion I care about, are on my msn-list. I had discussions like those before and don't want to spend my entire Illa-time with this. So, yes, my two cents.

[Aegohl]

I've been informed that at the next real life meeting the staff is planning to put together a new account system "of a sort." What that means, I have no clue.

However, we were promised that if this "experiment" was a failure (and it sure does look like a failure to me), the account system would be brought back in full.

What bugs me most is that promise was a lie, a very dirty, dirty little lie. What actually happened behind the scenes is that Nitram, Cassandra, and Martin threatened to leave the staff, thereby ending development of the game, if we don't end the account system permanently. Even as there are individuals listed above that I like a lot (and hell, at the time I agreed with their reasoning and wanted the account system killed) that's a pretty cruel thing to do to, well, us, where us is the community of Illarion.

Notice also that all this is done at the real life meeting. If you take a look at the pictures of the rl meeting what you'll find is a small group of people who, for the most part, don't play Illarion, haven't played Illarion in years, and have no intention of playing Illarion in the future. However, all the big decisions come down to these powerplayers who have nothing in common with the community of the game at all. That's something that needs to change.

-Mitch *bears witness for Dan*

[Miklorius]

- How many old players left after the account system was removed and it was at least partly the reason? 5? 10? 15? 20? Well I dont give a shit if you tell me 20 players is not much, because an active, old player with good RP abilitys is at least 10 times the worth of a n00b that will stay. Why?! Because it will influence new player's RP, teach them the right way and THATs what makes the difference. But the staff only sees them as any player and dont even listen to them, they act like they dont give a smile about illa anymore, really.

Well, it is true that some old players left - that is really sad and maybe that downgraded the overall "game atmosphere" a bit. But the status of the player base today is IMO far better than in the weeks after the removal of the account system in terms of RP/"noobism".

4. About overall RP situation and talking to people, and doing stuff. It has been in decline for months, Ive noticed it early just because Fooser was a town leader for a couple months, people don't care about things anymore. From the scale of a town, right down to engaging in conversation on the street. But at the same time, the people complaining about it are still here, a lot of good people are still here. So let's be pro active about this, do stuff, even if you have to do it with no supoort, just do something. Engage yourself and others, that's how it was done in the past, and how it needs to be done now.

The problem is that you have no disadvantage (and maybe also no real advantage?) if you do not care about greater events in the Illarion world (but otherwise it could be forced RP).
So, it is dissapointing when you try something and not many people care although there characters should care (e.g. Stephen Rothman *cough* as self-declared governor and warmonger).

First off, the staff *does* read, and the staff *does* make note of pretty much every word said on these forums. Do we react to everything publicly? No. But we do read it, it does have an effect.

That is IMO no good public relations. Maybe there should be weekly "press release" about what the staff is actually making/discussing/planning, so all players can inform thereselves and not only some players with "special sources of information" (AKA personal relationship to staff).

[Alytys Lamar]

I agree with Fooser and Aurora.

Playing now a year and few days, seeing much players and much staff gone... it hurts me always.

My Hope: please go back to a Account System... and I think many Problems are solved. Or is it fun do delete any day many Names and Chars ? I think is much work to do, work time which at other place is absent, my thought.

I love this game so much and I love the english players ( not the meaning I agree with all )
But, regrettably, I am not a Dev or something like that, I couldn't help in this way, so my only chance is to see which way the game goes and to decide when its time for me to leave.

[Markous]

Can you all discuss this elsewhere?

We are all adult enough to foresee that Illa is a lost case.

After all, you have to think about how much fun a game gives you, and how much stress. If it gives you more stress then fun and you are still here, it might only be addiction, and I suggest you to leave, for your own health.

And on the "GMs use all their free time" issue: There are thousands, if not millions of other games, where people spend their free time to provide free games for free people. Yet, the athmosphere in this games is a lot better.

[Aurora]

We are all adult enough to foresee that Illa is a lost case.

And on the "GMs use all their free time" issue: There are thousands, if not millions of other games, where people spend their free time to provide free games for free people. Yet, the athmosphere in this games is a lot better.

Markous, adult yes, but maybe not long enough with Illa to be able to follow ... why a lost case?

And regarding those millions of other games: I don't play them, I play Illarion.

[Lahela]

Notice also that all this is done at the real life meeting. If you take a look at the pictures of the rl meeting what you'll find is a small group of people who, for the most part, don't play Illarion, haven't played Illarion in years, and have no intention of playing Illarion in the future. However, all the big decisions come down to these powerplayers who have nothing in common with the community of the game at all. That's something that needs to change.

Just plain right!

Another problem is that nothing agreed on on a rl-meeting comes into action at least not the things the "players" (lets call them non-GMs) are allowed to propose.

Example: (Almost) two years ago ( May 2005 or even October 2004 ) Falk asked the non-GMs for proposals regarding a past-life quest to avoid those "get-killed-and-run-straight-back-to-battle"-things. Many ideas, many nice ideas were proposed. I never heard of any past-life quest again.

Oh well... I know the answer already. "No time, more important things, not that important now, later....maybe ...."

These things just piss me off.

Oh well, just my two cents.

[Samantha Meryadeles]

I agree with Arameh and Lianis

And hell, yes I agree with Lahela. I noticed that aswell since i was too on that discussion. There were many good ideas, not a single one was adopted. and we still have that same old system that annoys us.

[martin]

What actually happened behind the scenes is that Nitram, Cassandra, and Martin threatened to leave the staff, thereby ending development of the game, if we don't end the account system permanently.

I can only speak for myself here:

Illarion is something I put (past tense) a lot of time and passion in. Time is the main factor here. If I say "time", you probably have no idea what I mean by that, of the order of magnitude I speak about. I guess it's about 10 hours/day, including saturday and sunday. That makes about 70 hours/week. A full time job is about 40 hours/week, which is about the HALF of what I spent for this game. Think about that yourself.
Now, I did that for several month, I did all kinds of things, I learnd new things and everything, and I had less time to spend for University, other activities like meeting friends or whatever.

Now, ask yourself: Wouldn't you want some kind of reward for spending so much time? I mean fu**, assume this was a real job, I should have earned several 1000€/month for it (~4000 at least, I'd say). Taking that into account and assuming that I did that for, say, 7 months, that makes 210000€ (~250000 $) that I spent.
What was the effect?
Player numbers *decreased* from a very small level to a even smaller level. Most of the day, we had 0-1 players online, peaks at about 15-20 players once a week, tendency decreasing.
For the money equivalent of about 250000 bucks? I mean, honestly, this is the definition of the word "demotivation", right?

One of the reasons why we repelled players was the AS.

Even without it, we have a very limited playerbase now, and you might have noticed it: We still have the AS but practically I am no longer working on Illarion, at least not currently. One of our main developers, Falk, already left completely several weeks ago due to lack of motivation. Its not that we said "we leave to blackmail you, we leave to hurt you, we leave to punish you for not doing what we want!", as you, Mitch, suggest here, it's like: If player numbers do not increase dramatically, we can't motivate ourselves anymore to spend our time doing these kind of things.

This point is actually reached for me now. I see that, whatever amount of time I spend for Illa, I won't get any reward of it. Player numbers stay the same. I can't motivate myself to read through GBs of debugging output to find a tiny bug. I can't motivate myself debugging tons of scripts in hard work, spending day after day to find a bug which won't bring a single player to Illarion.

So, we're all, basically, demotivated by the situation. We prefer spending our time with something else. It's no punishment, it's a question of motivation.

As for qualifying our actions as "lying" and not holding our promise:
We do not believe that the "experiment" failed completely. There are two indicators:
* Level of RP
* Number of players

The number of players actually increased a lot after deactivation of the AS.
The Level of RP clearly decreased.

Besides that, as it looks now, the AS will come back in some form. Accusing us to not tell the truth is not only unfair, it's simply wrong.

Martin, practically out of the game actually

[Korm Kormsen]

Can you all discuss this elsewhere?
....
After all, you have to think about how much fun a game gives you, and how much stress. If it gives you more stress then fun and you are still here, it might only be addiction, and I suggest you to leave, for your own health.

well mentioned.

discuss this elsewhere, and let the optimists stay - and play.