#me now understands, why that carpenter is wearing a red cap...
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if tecnically possible, it might be an idea, that everybody can raise every crafting skill till, let's say, light blue.
but only two or three skills higher than that.
than the new ones can get something and process it, but later they would have to specialize.
crafting makes people rip their hair out
Moderator: Gamemasters
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Korm Kormsen
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@ Korm
Bad idea.....let's look at the druids, just as an example:
The should be able to learn herbal lore, alchemie and tilth (right word for "Ackerbau"?)
Tilth, to plant trees of course
So...three skills, wich they should be able to do.
So not just two skills...and three, there should be space for a everybody to have a hobby^^
I would say...4, absolute minimum.
But I also didn't like the idea of this in genrell.
Of course, not every body should be able to do everything, but it should be the decision of the player if it's fits to the char and if he is a total powergamer, there are also the GM's.
Bad idea.....let's look at the druids, just as an example:
The should be able to learn herbal lore, alchemie and tilth (right word for "Ackerbau"?)
Tilth, to plant trees of course
So...three skills, wich they should be able to do.
So not just two skills...and three, there should be space for a everybody to have a hobby^^
I would say...4, absolute minimum.
But I also didn't like the idea of this in genrell.
Of course, not every body should be able to do everything, but it should be the decision of the player if it's fits to the char and if he is a total powergamer, there are also the GM's.
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Korm Kormsen
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jupiter,
even in a fantasy world, i would like to have normal things normal.
in real life you got very few multy specialists.
you got specialists, who know one or two things very good being ignorant in other fields, and you got allrounders, who know a lot of things, but nothing superbly.
so we (I) wold be back at the idea of a total amount of skills, that has to be divided between the practicated crafts.
meaning, after reaching a certain level of total skills, if you go further up with one skill, another, seldom used skill would have to go down.
just my point of view....
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even in a fantasy world, i would like to have normal things normal.
in real life you got very few multy specialists.
you got specialists, who know one or two things very good being ignorant in other fields, and you got allrounders, who know a lot of things, but nothing superbly.
so we (I) wold be back at the idea of a total amount of skills, that has to be divided between the practicated crafts.
meaning, after reaching a certain level of total skills, if you go further up with one skill, another, seldom used skill would have to go down.
just my point of view....
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#me stretches to the side, to gain a look behind the DungeonMaster shield.......now...
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Samantha Meryadeles
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i would differ the craftmen skills onto two differen sort of skills.
crafts: Every craft that produces finished items. Smithery, carpentry, tayloring, cooking, gemcutting, goldsmithing etc.
Nonproducing trades, aka rawmaterial producing crafts: Mining, woodchopping, herblore, farming, fishing, and so on.
if making limits, than the trades should be divided, and every of the two shall get its own limits.
for example, one producing craft at maximum, one at half, and the other stuff dont even turns cyan or green without lowering one of the maincrafts. RP reason? When concentrating on too many other crafts you will lose the training with your maincrafts and became more worse in them.
and the same for crafts producing rawmaterials. means you can have one craft at maximum, and one that gives you rawmaterials, one craft at half, and one at half that gives you rawmaterials
crafts: Every craft that produces finished items. Smithery, carpentry, tayloring, cooking, gemcutting, goldsmithing etc.
Nonproducing trades, aka rawmaterial producing crafts: Mining, woodchopping, herblore, farming, fishing, and so on.
if making limits, than the trades should be divided, and every of the two shall get its own limits.
for example, one producing craft at maximum, one at half, and the other stuff dont even turns cyan or green without lowering one of the maincrafts. RP reason? When concentrating on too many other crafts you will lose the training with your maincrafts and became more worse in them.
and the same for crafts producing rawmaterials. means you can have one craft at maximum, and one that gives you rawmaterials, one craft at half, and one at half that gives you rawmaterials
I agree with Samantha to a point, except for a few things...
If you are going to do it, I would say allow two in each group, not one. Two that can reach the highest, two that can reach about decent, and the rest can only get to the very most basic levels (maybe 10/100). The only problem is finding some way to 'tell' the game which ones you want to get high. If you work hard to get very good at something, you don't want to lose levels in it because you didn't realize doing something would count against that. For example, if you reach master-status as a woodcutter, and you didn't realize that double-clicking on a bunch of grass would earn you herblore, you could lose an entire level of woodcutting in a single double-click, or maybe two. The only way I can think of dealing with this is with a sort of 'skill locking' system such as found in Ultima Online. But that would probably require a great deal of coding..
And it really wouldn't work to just say 'the first ones past half are the only ones you can raise high'. What about those people that already have three or four above half? And what if at some point down the line, you decide you want to change your focus?
In theory it sounds like a decent idea... but the reality of it would be much too complicated IMHO.
If you are going to do it, I would say allow two in each group, not one. Two that can reach the highest, two that can reach about decent, and the rest can only get to the very most basic levels (maybe 10/100). The only problem is finding some way to 'tell' the game which ones you want to get high. If you work hard to get very good at something, you don't want to lose levels in it because you didn't realize doing something would count against that. For example, if you reach master-status as a woodcutter, and you didn't realize that double-clicking on a bunch of grass would earn you herblore, you could lose an entire level of woodcutting in a single double-click, or maybe two. The only way I can think of dealing with this is with a sort of 'skill locking' system such as found in Ultima Online. But that would probably require a great deal of coding..
And it really wouldn't work to just say 'the first ones past half are the only ones you can raise high'. What about those people that already have three or four above half? And what if at some point down the line, you decide you want to change your focus?
In theory it sounds like a decent idea... but the reality of it would be much too complicated IMHO.
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Korm Kormsen
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samantha and nirantae,
please rethink-
if we would have one or two high skill in every type of crafting, we would be back to the " eierlegende Wollmilchsau" (egg-laying Wool-milk-sow)
who can everything and does not need to interact.
making the whole question of skillcaps superfluous.
afterthought: if we introduce hermaphrodites, even the cybering could be done without others...
edit:
please rethink-
if we would have one or two high skill in every type of crafting, we would be back to the " eierlegende Wollmilchsau" (egg-laying Wool-milk-sow)
who can everything and does not need to interact.
making the whole question of skillcaps superfluous.
afterthought: if we introduce hermaphrodites, even the cybering could be done without others...
edit:
answer:What about those people that already have three or four above half? And what if at some point down the line, you decide you want to change your focus?
...the idea of a total amount of skills, that has to be divided between the practicated crafts.
meaning, after reaching a certain level of total skills, if you go further up with one skill, another, seldom used skill would have to go down.
RP reason? When concentrating on too many other crafts you will lose the training with your maincrafts and became more worse in them.
But once you know something you never lose it. (with enough practise that smiths do.)
I am kind of against the whole limiting amount of crafts. Anyone can do any amount of things, and would obviously learn from them. If i take 5 subjects at college, does not mean i can't learn anything about the 6th.
Learning them at the sameish time would be hard yes, but we do have a skill cap remember. It limits them quite well.
If we have a dwarf that can do any craft, who cares, good for him. He had the time to put work into it to get the reward. We should not limit these things in my opinion.
It reminds me of a warrior in a way, He can learn to hit accurately and dodge but suddenly cannot parry?
[url=http://illarion.org/community/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17966]Discussion about attributes[/url], Lennier wrote:Personally i prefer a system with a limited number (treasure) of skill-points for all skills (maybe categorized in groups). If a char has no free skillpoints it would be possible, that functions, which are not used for a long time can be forgotten to advantage to a currently regulary used function (Example: A smith decides to become a farmer. With time (numbers of acting over the skill-treasure-limit) he can become a good farmer, but he lose his knowledge in smithing). Would prevent the mastering of 10 skills but would be flexible enough for smooth changes in the behavior of chars.
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Skaalib Drurr
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I still go by what i say. And Skallib backs me up.
To get all the skills of a craft you need to be around for a long time. There is no such thing as limited knowledge and learning. If we had this in real life it would be a very silly thing and not fun, why should we apply it to a game where we should have fun?
To get all the skills of a craft you need to be around for a long time. There is no such thing as limited knowledge and learning. If we had this in real life it would be a very silly thing and not fun, why should we apply it to a game where we should have fun?
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Kevin Lightdot
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Limiting crafts? I don't really like it.
As some others stated, it's not all that logical in most senses, once you learn how to ride a bike you'll take long to unlearn.
It would also in some ways limit rp, because some characters, just as some people in real life are jacks of all trades.
Of course the self sufficientness wouldn't be to nice, but that's something wich the players need to change about themselves. And still that's something a character may choose to do, be more self sufficient.
But do you have any idea how long it'd take to become good enough at all those skills?
Yes, some people may powergame, but again, they'd need to change that.
That's all I'll say for now, I have some other things, but I gotta make some homework, and want to enjoy myself a bit. >.> School ;_;
As some others stated, it's not all that logical in most senses, once you learn how to ride a bike you'll take long to unlearn.
It would also in some ways limit rp, because some characters, just as some people in real life are jacks of all trades.
Of course the self sufficientness wouldn't be to nice, but that's something wich the players need to change about themselves. And still that's something a character may choose to do, be more self sufficient.
But do you have any idea how long it'd take to become good enough at all those skills?
Yes, some people may powergame, but again, they'd need to change that.
That's all I'll say for now, I have some other things, but I gotta make some homework, and want to enjoy myself a bit. >.> School ;_;
erm, you guys yet still consider that the devs and all the staff spend their time for you for nothing ?! ... please keep in mind, that this game is for free.Salathe wrote:i really hope this new system is good, all the changes that have happened since the game reset have made it worse and worse!!!
i got my fingers crossed
If it is getting worse and worse, why are you still here?
sorry, out of topic, but I could not resist ...
Last edited by Dariya on Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Is illarion an RP game? Yes. (supposedly)
Will limiting skills increase RP? No.
Why not? Because all you'll get is people running around an almost empty map interupting whispered conversations asking "Do you sell...." and either they'll send you on your way, or you'll buy what you need then leave.
One other point, just because you can make every item in every skill doesn't mean you have to. If you are a good RPer (whatever the hell that is) and you can create an RP oportunity out of buying cabbages then do so, you can always pretend you need to buy something.
[Rant] Ever since Illa turned into a more serious RP game there's been nothing but bitching about skills. Give everyone max skills in everything and lets see the RP. [/Rant]
Will limiting skills increase RP? No.
Why not? Because all you'll get is people running around an almost empty map interupting whispered conversations asking "Do you sell...." and either they'll send you on your way, or you'll buy what you need then leave.
One other point, just because you can make every item in every skill doesn't mean you have to. If you are a good RPer (whatever the hell that is) and you can create an RP oportunity out of buying cabbages then do so, you can always pretend you need to buy something.
[Rant] Ever since Illa turned into a more serious RP game there's been nothing but bitching about skills. Give everyone max skills in everything and lets see the RP. [/Rant]
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Keikan Hiru
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The opposite is the truth.Algoran wrote: Will limiting skills increase RP? No.
Why not? Because all you'll get is people running around an almost empty map interupting whispered conversations asking "Do you sell...." and either they'll send you on your way, or you'll buy what you need then leave.
Every interaction with another players character is a entrance to a roleplay opportunity, even such a profane question as "Do you sell [item]?".
A little push in the direction of character specialisation never hurts.
Other games also limit the aviable professions to a character to mostly a single one.
BUT:
Everyone will do what they love most, and not bother with skills that they *could* buy.
Everyone chooses to smith, run around asking to buy ore, oh dear.. no miners.. Instead we have a couple of pansies who are rping with eachover, and the tell the buyer to go away because these two only like to rp with their friends. Ie. eachover.
Common case in todays illarion.
So yeah, its still abit pants to limit skills.
Everyone will do what they love most, and not bother with skills that they *could* buy.
Everyone chooses to smith, run around asking to buy ore, oh dear.. no miners.. Instead we have a couple of pansies who are rping with eachover, and the tell the buyer to go away because these two only like to rp with their friends. Ie. eachover.
Common case in todays illarion.
So yeah, its still abit pants to limit skills.
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WickedEwok
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Illarion isn't a TRUE roleplaying game anyway
For that you would have to get rid of the skills and other stuff, too. It will ALWAYS also be about skill, even when there are people playing without skilling. What would the mighty warrior do without a good smith that cannot provide a shiny armor? Or if he had to buy them from the NPC and say 'omg wtf rip off!!!!111'
Most people only think, that just because they chose to play a warrior they do not have to care about the crafters, but I guess we will have to wait for the update and maybe talk about the whole case when the time is right.
There is a lot of RP in Illarion, but I doubt that it's the best quality for the most only care about themselves and act like that.
For that you would have to get rid of the skills and other stuff, too. It will ALWAYS also be about skill, even when there are people playing without skilling. What would the mighty warrior do without a good smith that cannot provide a shiny armor? Or if he had to buy them from the NPC and say 'omg wtf rip off!!!!111'
Most people only think, that just because they chose to play a warrior they do not have to care about the crafters, but I guess we will have to wait for the update and maybe talk about the whole case when the time is right.
There is a lot of RP in Illarion, but I doubt that it's the best quality for the most only care about themselves and act like that.
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Skaalib Drurr
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People seem to have the idea that to have an unspecialised player is bad, and somehow, bad rp, which I really dislike.Keikan Hiru wrote:A little push in the direction of character specialisation never hurts.
Other games also limit the aviable professions to a character to mostly a single one.
[quote="Front page of Illarion.org]Just follow the role you want to play[/quote]I think this is what Illarion is about. Who are people to say that multi-skilling is a bad character concept? It is as good as anyone who relies even partly upon any skill(s). Illarion is a game where you can do what you want, and have fun on the way.
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Korm Kormsen
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Think about it, no one wants to max out every skill. Currently no one has ever done this, maybe smiths max their mining, but rarely do we get carpenter smiths. or anything.
Why would it change?
We wont have super self efficient chars, just ones that will be ok at other things and good in their main areas.
Why would it change?
We wont have super self efficient chars, just ones that will be ok at other things and good in their main areas.
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Korm Kormsen
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your last sentence sounds good. but if i remember what has been written in this thread, i get the sensation, that there are a lot of players, who want to be the best in everything.
but anyhow, we are idiots. we ignore how the new system will be, so we hasten, to bitch a little about the old one, before it is gone...
korm
but anyhow, we are idiots. we ignore how the new system will be, so we hasten, to bitch a little about the old one, before it is gone...
korm
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Skaalib Drurr
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And if someone has been around for long enough to do so without powergaming, then hell, what is wrong with that.
I think the main problem is the blur around the issue of powergaming. The rules state powergaming is carrying out an action that does not fit your character's role repeatedly and for an extended time just to raise skills. But what is that? The lines are of course blurred. Perhaps a more rigid guidline/rule should be laid down?
I think the main problem is the blur around the issue of powergaming. The rules state powergaming is carrying out an action that does not fit your character's role repeatedly and for an extended time just to raise skills. But what is that? The lines are of course blurred. Perhaps a more rigid guidline/rule should be laid down?
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Korm Kormsen
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