Magic Discussion

Skaalib Drurr · Post by **Skaalib Drurr** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:25 am

Skaalib is actually not dumb or any of theose things Patric mentioned. Totalled his int, ess and will add to 33 i think. I'm considering having him learn magic resistance mainly because one day I was walking back from the crypt, when there were about 15 blue skeletons by the grey rose whose magic killed me as soon as I got in range, in about 2 casts. To me, that is rp reason enough no?

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:21 am

Lag + Troll mage = Death.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:48 am

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:But mages have weak bodys, weak arms, and no real interest at fighting. so no rp reason to powergame parry as non fighters.

fighters are dumb, have no knowledge about magic, and a weaker bound to it. so no reason to powergame magic resistance othert than killing mages more easily. but it is no warrior skill! like parry is no mageskill

I just want to mention this one more time:
Mages can be anything to, they can have as many interest in fighting as they want.
You *sereously* need to stop only allowing stereotyped characters on your good list.

But let's discuss about that somewhere else.

Anyway:
A warrior should still be able to get resistance to things, wether he knows it or not. It's as simple as that.
If you want to play the uber mage who pwns the world, well then go train, Magic can't always win, but Magic needs to be special, yes.

But what I think we could do against warrior Magic resistance powergaming. There could be something like a permanent cap for such skills based on intelligence.
I dunno how the system works, but I think this'd be pretty possible.

Lets say int is the intelligence variable. And Magic Res. cap is obviously the variable of Magic Resistance cap.

On another little note here: Maybe there should be an upward moving curve, so that someone with a battlemage can still gain resistance skill, only of course much slower.

If int = 3 then Magic Res. cap = 20/200
If int = 4 then Magic Res. cap = 30/200
If int = 5 then Magic Res. cap = 40/200
If int = 6 then Magic Res. cap = 50/200

Ect..
Now maybe my setting of the cap is a bit wrong, but it's the idea I'm only speaking of now.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:06 pm

Magic resistance is like the hands of a smith. I doubt the smith carves in his hands to get his skin thicker, but it naturally does, as the smith keeps working. He allso learns to take heat better with time. Powergaming Mag.res. will just look weird, if you go to a skeleton mage who wants to kill you, and let him attack you over and over. It is like hiering a man to hit you til it doesn't hurt anymore... You simply don't do it. However if you have a friend who is a mage, there is no reason why the mage would not try to teach you how you can deflect the spells, by casting some weak spells at you. I think Kevin's idea on how the Magic Resistance should work is a good idea. That way, it is imposible to powergame it further at some point. I still think the mag.res. should make small diference though...

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:13 pm

You simply don't do it. However if you have a friend who is a mage, there is no reason why the mage would not try to teach you how you can deflect the spells, by casting some weak spells at you.

That IS powergaming and forbidden. Doing that will just lure a seer to you with his hammer of punishments.

Int 6 50 % magic resistance? everything under essence 10 should not be able to reach 50 %.
Do you know how good magic resistance works? with 50 % you even can deflect the spells! and i see no reason why a warrior should be able to deflect magic spells back to the magic caster.
The only reason they want to learn magic resistance is to be able to kill mages which they cant kill alone currently. but that is the wrong intention behind, that is exactly what illarion is NOT about. You ever read the gamerules were powergaming is somethinfg that means raising skills not fitting to the character just for the purpose to raise them? a warrior training magic resistance is exactly that.
just like a mage is doing the same when training parry.

And that is not stereotype, it is common sense and roleplay, and NO powergaming like everything other would be.

NirAntae · Post by **NirAntae** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:23 pm

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:That IS powergaming and forbidden. Doing that will just lure a seer to you with his hammer of punishments.

Int 6 50 % magic resistance? everything under essence 10 should not be able to reach 50 %.
Do you know how good magic resistance works? with 50 % you even can deflect the spells! and i see no reason why a warrior should be able to deflect magic spells back to the magic caster.
The only reason they want to learn magic resistance is to be able to kill mages which they cant kill alone currently. but that is the wrong intention behind, that is exactly what illarion is NOT about. You ever read the gamerules were powergaming is somethinfg that means raising skills not fitting to the character just for the purpose to raise them? a warrior training magic resistance is exactly that.
just like a mage is doing the same when training parry.

I don't see how it's powergaming. Just because the 'point' is gaining skill doesn't make it powergaming, unless it is overly repetitive and unlike your character to do, otherwise you couldn't, technically, do *anything* that raises your skill, couldn't practice anything at all. For instance, Jeremy would sometimes cast a few spells at Maggie, because she was trying to give him practice with his magic (to avoid the much more powergaming necessity of going into the forest and multi-casting spells on nothing). They never did it for hours and hours on end, and was great fun for both of them.

And there is a perfectly good reason for fighters, especially those who learn to fight for the purpose of protecting themselves and loved-ones, to learn magic. A lot of NPC's/quest-creatures can cast magic now. Maggie can take on two or three skeletons depending on how strong they are, but one mage skeleton could easily wipe her out... and she *has* a small bit of magic resistance.

And actually, that's 50/200. In other words, only 25%. I didn't like that layout at first (though he DID say it was just an illustration, not an actual proposal for the distribution)... but now that I look at it, it's not too bad, if you bump it up two. (3=50/200, 4=60/200, etc.) This means to hit the full limit, you have to have an 18 Int.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:30 pm

don't see how it's powergaming. Just because the 'point' is gaining skill doesn't make it powergaming, unless it is overly repetitive and unlike your character to do. For instance, Jeremy would sometimes cast a few spells at Maggie, because she was trying to give him practice with his magic (to avoid the much more powergaming necessity of going into the forest and multi-casting spells on nothing). They never did it for hours and hours on end, and was great fun for both of them.

That was against the rules...sorry, but it is so. in the past others got banned for exactly that.

And again, magic resistance works damn well. with 25 % and more you will already deflect the spells of an average caster! with 50 % you can already laugh about their spells.

no warrior should be able to reach that much. it would be simply a grave disadvantage for the mages who wont go and powergame their parry up. and no, my mage wont go train parry, since that is simply a no no for a mages roleplay

abcfantasy · Post by **abcfantasy** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:31 pm

I think Kevin's idea is best.
Usually warriors have a low intelligence and essence, and so would still be weak to magic, even if they trained magic resistance.

Those who would have a better intelligence or essence, I would see nothing wrong if then they good in resisting magic, as this would mean they have less strength or other attributes.

So the best is to have a skill cap based on maybe intelligence and/or essence.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:36 pm

Let's put things into perspective:
You can be a strong fighter in a month.
It takes many months to become a mage.
Fighter training is much easier and cheaper than mage training. (Mana potions/food on top of the health a fighter requires)
Fighters really only need parry and one attacking skill.
Mages need magic resistance, commotio and most would also require healing spells etc. to stay alive.
Mages are therefore powerful after all their work.
If NPC resistance gaining was implemented, some/many fighters would pg/pick it up along the way, therefore rendering all the mages' hard work useless.

NirAntae · Post by **NirAntae** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:36 pm

If that is against the rules, especially considering Jeremy was also planning to teach Maggie magic as well as soon as he could, then it should also be against the rules for a smith to smith items, a carpenter to carve, or a tailor to make things unless they have a specific order for something; not to mention fighters to have a friendly duel, or mages to cast spells that aren't necessary. It has been said that as long as what you're doing fits the RP, then training things is NOT against the rules. This fit the RP fine.

And if magic resistance is THAT powerful, maybe that part of it needs to be reworked. You shouldn't be able to 'not worry' about spells until at least 75%.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:37 pm

Patric, please think for 5 seconds.

The stereotype comment was directed at this:
'But mages have weak bodys, weak arms, and no real interest at fighting.'
And Mainly at the last part.

And just by reading this wrong:
If int = 3 then Magic Res. cap = 20/200
If int = 4 then Magic Res. cap = 30/200
If int = 5 then Magic Res. cap = 40/200
If int = 6 then Magic Res. cap = 50/200

shows you didn't take 5 seconds to read it.

And also, why would it be powergaming?
The definition of powergaming is training skills over and over and over again, being it skills your char would be interested in or not.

And also, as Maggie stated: Why would a warrior not be interested in gaining atleast a little resistance to deflect Magic?

A warriors purpose is to fight, and to live to fight the next day, getting a little 'skill' in deflecting destructive magic, subcontiously it may happen, as a natural reaction. Like one would do with diseases.
Someone gets a new disease, the body has no idea what to do with it.
Someone gets it the next time, the body has some defence for it already.
Or one getting slowly used to living in a colder or warmer climate.
That's the way the human body is supposed to work.

That's the basic idea.

Now please Patric, I ask you to think outside your idea, think of other fitting solutions, think of fitting solutions that make sense, and are possible.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:43 pm

Solutions for what? A mage could train his parry up to yellow, he will never be able to survive more attacks. i have a ranger char with 8 constituion, high dex, high agility, and over average strength. her parry is yellow, far yellow. she cant deflect a true warriors attacks with a very good shield! and she couldnt survive more than 6-9 attacks. for every mage it would be similar, or even worse.

Why should a warrior be able to deflect and negate a mages spell? A mage cant do so for the warriors attack. even with yellow parry! so i see no reason why a warrior should be allowed to do so. a warrior with yellow magic resistance, or even green one or slightly green, will be a pain in the ass for any mage since the magic resistance skill will work damn good on him.

it is simply fairness. warriors shouldnt get an advantage over mages which mages can't have over warriors.

And again, a true mage training parry is simply doing bad roleplay. that doesnt fit a true mage. a mage won't go down the street and start swinging sword and wear heavy armor and tryin his parry! So a warrior shouldnt do the same with magic resistance.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:45 pm

@Kevin So you're saying when dealing with magic your body needs to find the t and b cells and next time the magic comes, memory cells block it? Illness falls under constitution, and we're talking about blocking magic, by focusing the mind. In fact, illness is defeated over time like a little war in your body. Handling magic requires a nerve reaction. i.e. nervous vs. hormonal is a very big difference and therefore the two cannot be compared.

NirAntae · Post by **NirAntae** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:48 pm

Then, as I said, the relative power of magic resistance should be lowered, not a fighter be unable to learn it at all. And perhaps the effect of parry/dodge raised slightly, but that's another matter.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:24 pm

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:Solutions for what? A mage could train his parry up to yellow, he will never be able to survive more attacks. i have a ranger char with 8 constituion, high dex, high agility, and over average strength. her parry is yellow, far yellow. she cant deflect a true warriors attacks with a very good shield! and she couldnt survive more than 6-9 attacks. for every mage it would be similar, or even worse.

Why should a warrior be able to deflect and negate a mages spell? A mage cant do so for the warriors attack. even with yellow parry! so i see no reason why a warrior should be allowed to do so. a warrior with yellow magic resistance, or even green one or slightly green, will be a pain in the ass for any mage since the magic resistance skill will work damn good on him.

it is simply fairness. warriors shouldnt get an advantage over mages which mages can't have over warriors.

And again, a true mage training parry is simply doing bad roleplay. that doesnt fit a true mage. a mage won't go down the street and start swinging sword and wear heavy armor and tryin his parry! So a warrior shouldnt do the same with magic resistance.

The chance would still be small to reflect it and whatever.
Kevin, with green parry can parry skelatons and all that with a crap shield.
Yes, no uber warriors.
But good mages still have a larger chance of hitting the other guy if they have high skill.

And about the last part:
Why would a mage not learn to parry a bit?
If it helps them, why wouldn't they do it?
This is exactly what I speak of with you and your stereotypes.
Have an open mind man...
If you where a mage, knowing you'd be up against warriors.
Why would you not try to learn to parry and dodge their attacks?

And Alex:
Most magic is still elemental, or poisonous.
You're saying that someone can get used to jumping through fire, but not to getting a ball of fire tossed at them?
You're telling me I can get used to eating icecubes, but not to mage's ice attacks?
There are people who inject themselves with some kinds of poison, to keep up their defence against it, but noone can build up any defence against poison made by magic?

That makes no sense, yes, magic may be stronger but your body can still learn how to handle it a little.
And further into resistance your mind would learn to negate the flow of magic itself, wich is another thing.

Skaalib Drurr · Post by **Skaalib Drurr** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:27 pm

Patric, let me direct you to this page
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... highlight=
From Arien's reply, he seems to think it is allowed, maybe he is wrong, I dont know.
Your arguement really makes no sense to me. You say it is unfair if a fighter can train to defeat a mage, but by that logic it is also unfair for a fighter to train to defeat another fighter, or for the fighter to use good items, because both those things give them an advantage over the oponent.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:37 pm

Kevin, I didn't say it was impossible, I was merely pointing out the flaws in your previous example.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:49 pm

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:Solutions for what? A mage could train his parry up to yellow, he will never be able to survive more attacks. i have a ranger char with 8 constituion, high dex, high agility, and over average strength. her parry is yellow, far yellow. she cant deflect a true warriors attacks with a very good shield! and she couldnt survive more than 6-9 attacks. for every mage it would be similar, or even worse.

It depends on what items you are holding. Not holding an item will not allow you to parry... If you had a near max parry and held a bow and say you can't parry you are simple wrong. I even have a character will low perception and he can parry Arameh in a fight while using a serinjah. I am guessing his parry is between 60-70%. And did you know even a maxed parry-maxed perception character cannot parry a newb? So, as long as a mage holds something they have an advantage over a warrior that they can also strengthen.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:49 pm

That makes no sense, yes, magic may be stronger but your body can still learn how to handle it a little.
And further into resistance your mind would learn to negate the flow of magic itself, wich is another thing.

That is impossible for a warrior. dont even start to belief any warrior without the attributes for magic could start influencing the mana flow or magic! dont start telling such stupid stuff. a character with intelligence, essence and willpower under 10 will never, NEVER, be able to understand magic, or using/influencing/manipulating magic or mana in any way.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:53 pm

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:
That makes no sense, yes, magic may be stronger but your body can still learn how to handle it a little.
And further into resistance your mind would learn to negate the flow of magic itself, wich is another thing.
That is impossible for a warrior. dont even start to belief any warrior without the attributes for magic could start influencing the mana flow or magic! dont start telling such stupid stuff. a character with intelligence, essence and willpower under 10 will never, NEVER, be able to understand magic, or using/influencing/manipulating magic or mana in any way.

What does resisting an element have to do with using it? Look at Kevin's examples. You can walk on fire after a while of doing it. That does not mean you have to know how the fire works.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:56 pm

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:
That makes no sense, yes, magic may be stronger but your body can still learn how to handle it a little.
And further into resistance your mind would learn to negate the flow of magic itself, wich is another thing.
That is impossible for a warrior. dont even start to belief any warrior without the attributes for magic could start influencing the mana flow or magic! dont start telling such stupid stuff. a character with intelligence, essence and willpower under 10 will never, NEVER, be able to understand magic, or using/influencing/manipulating magic or mana in any way.

That and further part, was meant for mages only...

And Lrmy has a point too, even though it falls more under knowing basicly under the first kind of resistance I stated.

And does someone really need to understand magic, to arm itself against it for atleast a bit?
How do you think all the early inventions came?
By simply trying stuff, and again and again till they got lucky or figured it out for a small part.

And also, in my view:
Magic creates the fire with the help of Mana, magic fuels it with the help of mana, magic controlles it with the help of mana, but the fire itself isn't Magic nor mana. Created from, yes. But it is not mana.
Magic resistance negates part of the mana that fuels the fire, thus weakening it.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:30 pm

So, we are discussing how strong the resistance of magic should be, even though we do not yet agree how strong magic should be? Constitution should be the base atr. for how much fire you can take, but lets face it, noone survives inside an inferno... No warrior should have the posibilty to reflect a spell. You should at least have an intelligence of 15 or so to do that i think, and know magic yourself.
Anyway, magic resistance should not be to common, and it should only help a little I think. Of course, if you know you are soon to fight a mage, you would try to build a resistance against magic, but all warriors should not go around asking for somone to train their resistance. It's like we in our society do not walk around trying poison, just in case we one day will get poisoned, and a resistance would help.
It is logical that warriors fighting skeletonmages would slowly get a resistance, but i think it should be a lot less npc mages. It does at least not help making magic somthing special having that many of them walking around.
How much should magic resistance help if you have it maxed out for example?

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:37 pm

You cannot really make a comparison to Illarion and reality. Do not forget this is a game and should not be taken as literally as "our" world.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:37 pm

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:
That makes no sense, yes, magic may be stronger but your body can still learn how to handle it a little.
And further into resistance your mind would learn to negate the flow of magic itself, wich is another thing.
That is impossible for a warrior. dont even start to belief any warrior without the attributes for magic could start influencing the mana flow or magic! dont start telling such stupid stuff. a character with intelligence, essence and willpower under 10 will never, NEVER, be able to understand magic, or using/influencing/manipulating magic or mana in any way.

ACTUALLY, This is not true, Attributes are there to make it, not impossible to do something but how well to do something.
A warrior with low essence or whatever wont find it impossible to influence mana flow, just extremely hard.

If samantha has strength under 10, does not mean its impossible for her to lift a sword and understand how to use it.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:43 pm

Lrmy wrote:You cannot really make a comparison to Illarion and reality. Do not forget this is a game and should not be taken as literally as "our" world.

I agree, but it should be logical. Its starting to look more and more like Runescape and so on.
Maybe there should be no magic resistance at all. Constitution can be how well you take fire damage and so on, while intelligence can be how you can handle somthing attacking your brain or soul. Still remains how powerfull magic should be though. Should we not discuss that instead?

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:38 pm

ACTUALLY, This is not true, Attributes are there to make it, not impossible to do something but how well to do something.
A warrior with low essence or whatever wont find it impossible to influence mana flow, just extremely hard.

Someone with ent, int and willpower counted together under 30 will never, never be able to do a little bit of magic. he simply cantr understand magic, controle magic force or mana. so a warrior with attributes that low will never be able to do so. that is a fact

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:05 pm

Well i am not backing up that a warrior can use magic, i am saying that he can still understand it, resulting in abit of magic resistance or whatever.

that is a fact

Rather call it an implementation of the game.

Skaalib Drurr · Post by **Skaalib Drurr** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:05 pm

Cuthalion wrote:Maybe there should be no magic resistance at all. Constitution can be how well you take fire damage and so on, while intelligence can be how you can handle somthing attacking your brain or soul. Still remains how powerfull magic should be though. Should we not discuss that instead?

Logic cannot be applied as you try to in Illarion. There are different boundaries of reality and science. For example in the real world, there is no magic. And to respond to your earlier post, actually some Kings or the like have been known to poison themselves a little bit to build up a resistance to it.
And guys, don't get too stressed about it. This is only a game remember!!

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:00 pm

Mad kings probably, and it is till very few who does. And that magic exist, does not mean it has to be unlogical. If it is, there is no point discusing this at all.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:40 pm

Gah, I'm lost here...
What have we agreed on? And what not?