I always sucked at titles..just read

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:34 am

This post is mainly to show my point of view about the recent banning of PO Stephen Rothman since the other topic has been locked, I am breaking no rules in my post and it is not an invitation to flaming so there are no reasons for it to be locked or deleted unless it really turns out badly.

Ok first, the rules he has 'broken'

He did the following things, that were no so good:

* Fooling around while a gm tried to speak with him
* covering a rule break ( Spreading the information about the character of a staff member )
* Spreading this information by posting the talking log
* posting a talking log, without the permission of all involved players (not that importaint, but still... )

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The first one , "fooling around with a GM" isnt a rule, the 'GM' could just have asked in a PM or msn thereafter instead of banning him, but I guess banning someone permanently is easier. The only reason he did get banned was because he made the GM angry, and of course in this community people do not admit their mistakes, but well staff members are such great examples for us

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Second , "Spreading the information about the character of a staff member", that is not agaisnt the rules, since even if Gerron Defreny is played by a staff member, the rule states that only GM characters have to be kept private, he is a personnal character owned by a staff member, he is NOT a GM character, for the reason listed below :

Some players have characters with Game master (GM) status. Their task is to keep order within the game . They can punish misbehavior in a number of unpleasant ways, or notify administrators for some even more unpleasant punishment.

The character Gerron Defreny isnt keeping order within the game, he is a simple character which RPs with others, and as such he is able to take several positions such a Royal guard and currently as citizent of the Nordmark as well as participant of the fighting tournament. It is obvious that 'GM characters' which are there to keep order in the game shoulnt be supposed to be used as regular characters and change the course of the game, it would make totally no sense.

Actually since the new 'GM system' is implemented (Gamemasters can now easily locate characters and observe the game without needing to log in), the 'GM characters' are not even needed anymore, since that tool is much easier to use to Keep order within the game. As well, the player clearly states that this character is in no way pushed (meaning to have gained skills, attributes or item via GM tools), even though most or all of the 'GM characters' are known to be either invincible or hightly pushed (so they dont get killed).

So yeah, since Gerron is only a normal character played by a staff member, the rules does not apply.

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Third and fourth , "* Spreading this information by posting the talking log
* posting a talking log, without the permission of all involved players "
Well as stated earlier, those arent bannable offenses in any way, and oddly enought the quote of the day topic which is full of such logs isnt getting deleted at all.

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So then, Sam did not break any rules, I see this whole thing as a few staff members wishing to ban Sam because of either dislike or bad self control, and trying not to look bad by giving false banning reasons, all that just because he knew who was the player of a character, what the heck? Coincidently, it isnt the first time he does get banned for bad reasons or just out of spite.

I remember when Aegohl had to unban him a few times because such things happened, sad that we lost him, it was the only GM I have known in illa to really want the game to be fair and fun to everyone, as well as really trying to counter unfair things instead of just thinking "this dosent concern me" like most GMs seems to think now.
___________________________________________

I do not think this topic will do anything else than showing my point of view to several people so they know more of what happened. As well as Patric's unfounded argument (if we can call it like an argument) which is gonna ignore about 95% of my post.

- Dan

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:49 am

Arameh wrote: Second , "Spreading the information about the character of a staff member", that is not agaisnt the rules, since even if Gerron Defreny is played by a staff member, the rule states that only GM characters have to be kept private, he is a personnal character owned by a staff member, he is NOT a GM character, for the reason listed below :

may i quote a rule from the rulelist?

2. Gamemaster

Some players have characters with Game master (GM) status. Their task is to keep order within the game. They can punish misbehavior in a number of unpleasant ways, or notify administrators for some even more unpleasant punishment. These special characters should not be disturbed when busy, with the possible exception of very urgent cases. Lying to gamemasters, and exploiting bugs constitute serious offences, and will be dealt with harshly. The Game masters' privacy is respected. Their other characters will not be named unless specifically requested by the GM him or herself.

Since i informed you over msn about that failure and you still refused to change your post to a more fitting content i had to wrote here in public where you simply wrote untrue informations. thanks.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:54 am

That only rule, to 'break the privacy of a GM' (which I dont see a reason why its only GMs that are 'protected' this way) is worth a permanent ban?

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:54 am

Arameh wrote: This post is mainly to show my point of view about the recent banning of PO Stephen Rothman since the other topic has been locked, I am breaking no rules in my post and it is not an invitation to flaming so there are no reasons for it to be locked or deleted unless it really turns out badly.

I hope it gets locked. Now.

Ok first, the rules he has 'broken'
He did the following things, that were no so good:

* Fooling around while a gm tried to speak with him
* covering a rule break ( Spreading the information about the character of a staff member )
* Spreading this information by posting the talking log
* posting a talking log, without the permission of all involved players (not that importaint, but still... )

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The first one , "fooling around with a GM" isnt a rule, the 'GM' could just have asked in a PM or msn thereafter instead of banning him, but I guess banning someone permanently is easier. The only reason he did get banned was because he made the GM angry, and of course in this community people do not admit their mistakes, but well staff members are such great examples for us

The main issue was that he ALSO had a history of offenses, and Who the hell are you to tell who the GM's can and cannot ban? If they want to ban you for wearing a fuzzy pink hat, they will, and you can bitch like Sam did, and you can get people to back you up, like Sam paid to do, but its not going to change shitfuckall.

This is not a player democracy. The GM's don't want to hear it. The GM's do what they feel is nessecary for the better of the game, and the majority of players agree with their decisions.

Second , "Spreading the information about the character of a staff member", that is not agaisnt the rules, since even if Gerron Defreny is played by a staff member, the rule states that only GM characters have to be kept private, he is a personnal character owned by a staff member, he is NOT a GM character, for the reason listed below :

Trying to find a loophole might work in your countries judicial system. It won't work here, sorry.

Some players have characters with Game master (GM) status. Their task is to keep order within the game . They can punish misbehavior in a number of unpleasant ways, or notify administrators for some even more unpleasant punishment.
The character Gerron Defreny isnt keeping order within the game, he is a simple character which RPs with others, and as such he is able to take several positions such a Royal guard and currently as citizent of the Nordmark as well as participant of the fighting tournament. It is obvious that 'GM characters' which are there to keep order in the game shoulnt be supposed to be used as regular characters and change the course of the game, it would make totally no sense.

Before a GM is a player, he is a GM. If something needs to be taken care of, that "Simple Character" will become a GM Character to deal with it. This is common sense.

Actually since the new 'GM system' is implemented (Gamemasters can now easily locate characters and observe the game without needing to log in), the 'GM characters' are not even needed anymore, since that tool is much easier to use to Keep order within the game. As well, the player clearly states that this character is in no way pushed (meaning to have gained skills, attributes or item via GM tools), even though most or all of the 'GM characters' are known to be either invincible or hightly pushed (so they dont get killed).

Communicating better between Avatars is easier then a disembodied message, its also more tactfull and more likely one will listen. In this case, someone was stupid enough not to listen. They are now banned.

So yeah, since Gerron is only a normal character played by a staff member, the rules does not apply.

Again, who are you to say? Since when are you Admin Arameh? GM Arameh? Op Arameh?

Third and fourth , "* Spreading this information by posting the talking log
* posting a talking log, without the permission of all involved players "
Well as stated earlier, those arent bannable offenses in any way, and oddly enought the quote of the day topic which is full of such logs isnt getting deleted at all.

Posting logs if someone DOES NOT WANT YOU TO. If someone were to contact a GM about logs on QOTD, they WOULD MOST LIKELY BE DELETED.

So then, Sam did not break any rules, I see this whole thing as a few staff members wishing to ban Sam because of either dislike or bad self control, and trying not to look bad by giving false banning reasons, all that just because he knew who was the player of a character, what the heck? Coincidently, it isnt the first time he does get banned for bad reasons or just out of spite.

I remember when Aegohl had to unban him a few times because such things happened, sad that we lost him, it was the only GM I have known in illa to really want the game to be fair and fun to everyone, as well as really trying to counter unfair things instead of just thinking "this dosent concern me" like most GMs seems to think now.

For the game to be fair and fun to anyone. A hell of alot more players must be banned. Also, once again I Remind you, they are staff members, we are players. What the smile are you going to do about it, lord arameh?

I do not think this topic will do anything else than showing my point of view to several people so they know more of what happened. As well as Patric's unfounded argument (if we can call it like an argument) which is gonna ignore about 95% of my post.

- Dan

Lock it please.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:04 am

Translation : GMs are the mighty ones which are always right and we must bever question them.

Sorry but I think differently, maybe you prefer kissing their ass but I dont, if I think they did something wrong I will tell it, I have grown in liberty of speech not facism.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:14 am

They are the mighty ones. They are the bosses of this game.,

And you all know that i am the last one who is kissing their ass. But even i know that i should never mock or piss off a gm like that. At the end they are those owning and creating this game. And if they come and act as official gms, than you shut up and do what they want.

yes, i often argue with them, and i also write things not nice. but i do that in a some of a "privat" way. like speaking with a policemen when he is off duty. but listen, when he wears his uniform i am all "Yes sir", since i dont want a police stick pushed up my butt.

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:27 am

Arameh wrote:That only rule, to 'break the privacy of a GM' (which I dont see a reason why its only GMs that are 'protected' this way) is worth a permanent ban?

(Not that I agree with banning Stephanie for good, but at any rate..)

The reason for the strict observation of this rule is simple: That the gamemasters are entitled to enjoy the game with their non-gm characters if they so wish, just like anyone else. The fact that they are doing administrative duties et cetera while playing, is not enough justification to piss on their efforts to manage the game by leaking the identity of their gamecharacters to the public with malicious (just to piss them off) intent.

Seriously Stephen, that was just so f***ing stupid from you.
No, while IMHO this (might) NOT be worth pemanent ban, the message should be made clear: You don't ridicule the gamemasters when they are about to talk about things that you did wrong.. AND more importantly, you will under no circumstances you spread their non-gm identitites around without their explict consent.
End of smiling story.

God damn Stephen, why is it so god damn hard for you to think for a moment before doing things? Why?

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:38 am

For clarity, they weren't about to talk about things he had done wrong. They wanted to know who had told him about the identity of the GM in question.

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:42 am

Stephen told me that there was a past conversation, in complete OOC, with Nitram before the said encounter. Stephen had simply told him he would not 'rat' on his friends.

After logging out and returning 5 minutes later, he found Nitram still sitting there. This is when he played his role. He only posted this part because it was the 'joke' to him.

Note; I am basing the post off what Stephen told me. It might be inacurate from both him and Nitram's encounters

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:46 am

I talked to Nitram the day before and told him I would not rat. And yes, the quote is a joke and it is funny and the fact that it is repeatedly deleted shows it is funny but it is humiliating Vilarion who thinks for some reason since he is apart of an online game dev team he is someone to be treated with respect and seriousness in real life (no doubt Po Dantagon's ass kissing consistently and referring to him as a police officer builds up such behavior). Instead of having humility he feels that he is lord :/

Oh well this game was going to hell anyways

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:52 am

Well Returner, you don't play the game any more so why are you even posting if not just to spite me?

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:06 am

i recall him being banned a couple of times for the same reason. Be glad he was able to play as long as he did

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:07 am

For making fun of gms ive gotten banned?

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:24 am

I nearly agree with Grant (nearly since its not formulated politely, but he does have some points)

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:31 am

Garett Gwenour wrote:Well Returner, you don't play the game any more so why are you even posting if not just to spite me?

Who says I don't play?

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:32 am

He just did.

Gildon · Post by **Gildon** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:10 am

Pfft, I'm really starting to dislike some GM's now, Nitram, get a cure for that disease and perhaps for your other friends too.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:28 am

I told myself I'd stay out of this but I have to ask one thing:

Stephen Rothman is such an influentual character ig. He has no need to leave Gobaith so what will his story be?

And will Arameh simply inherit Kallahorn the knighthood and Grant the town?

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:21 pm

i will not comment on the ban, because i got not enough input on that.

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but on the point of privacy for staff member's private chars:

it seldom happens, but i am thinking the same as patric.

for me it makes a difference, to know, that one of my clanwarriors is led by a GM.
may be, because i am still a authority respecting kraut, but i would have preferred, not to learn about that fact.

Atuan Silverheart · Post by **Atuan Silverheart** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:25 pm

Sharing info about other people chars should be against the rules, GM or not. Everyone has the right to privacy.

Marius

Markous · Post by **Markous** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:28 pm

I just deleted some of this topics posts.

Read this: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=21526

Thurbert~ · Post by **Thurbert~** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:02 pm

Lasst euch da nur nicht dreinreden, ihr wisst schon was ihr tut.

Wenn ihr ne Entscheidung trefft, werdet ihr euch wohl was dabei denken und die Tatsache das der PO ganz und garnicht ein unbeschriebenes Blatt ist, tut ihr übriges um das Ganze noch besser nachzuvollziehen, zumindest für mich.

Wenn ihr jetzt zurückspringt und dem Geheule nachgibt wird hier bald alles in Frage gestellt so a la "Die letzte Quest war total gemein, hätte statt X nicht Y passieren können, ändert das jetzt!" und irgendwann dreht sich hier nurmehr alles im Kreis weil sich jeder beschwert.

Schiff ahoy, Kurs halten sag ich da nur.

----

Everything for you, here's english:

Don't let those guys influence you, you know what you're doing. (Talking about the staff)

If you make a decision I am sure you consider it thoroughly, and the fact that the PO in question has no "clean" record to say the least about his past makes it easier to comprehend your decision, for me atleast.

If you back down now, and give in to the whining soon everything will be questioned around here, i.e. "That last quest was sooo mean, why didn't X happen instead of Y, change that now!" and one day everything will run in circles around here because everyone complains about everything.

Ship ahoy, keep the direction, that's all I say.

xEleas · Post by **xEleas** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:13 pm

Thurbert, please keep it in english if possible. I'm trying to follow this thing..

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:03 pm

For how long is he banned anyway?

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:08 pm

Indefinitely. Or so I heard.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:13 pm

Banned for roleplaying in the GM castle, Revealing his knowledge to Gerron about who plays him (...........), posting logs about his roleplay in the gm castle.

Thats abit of a cunt lol.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:15 pm

He should get something in specific... Give him a date when he can start play. I doubt he has a problem with not playing Illa. for some weeks...

xEleas · Post by **xEleas** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:00 pm

Sam is permanently banned. I doubt this ban will be lifted.

And Patric, if I were you, I'd shut up right now.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:00 pm

Cuthalion wrote:He should get something in specific... Give him a date when he can start play. I doubt he has a problem with not playing Illa. for some weeks...

I haven't played in a month, I got over it. In fact, right now illarion and its complete lack of rp is so mind numbingly dull I'd prefer to play Pac Man World 3.

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/929534.asp

(My magazine gave it 21%... and had my friends and myself in hysterics for its pure sarcasm.))

Achae Eanstray · Post by **Achae Eanstray** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:50 pm

Just an opinion, but seems that for this one incident, to have the ultimate punishment of the site is excessive particularly for a PO that has been devoted to the game that long. I can see this mainly being used for new players that just will not learn. If the PO learned of a secret char from someone, where did that someone learn it from?

Not knowing the function well of a GM except as a mod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamemaster , some things have to roll off the back for problems between that mod and a member, but again, an opinion, the ultimate punishment should be when a PO excessively and constantly disrupts others trying to enjoy the game and previous punishments were ignored. That could be the case here, but I have not played with any char that I felt disrupted my rp though haven't played with all.

Ultimately however, Illarion is not owned and operated by PO's, the owner having the ultimate say, and I appreciate that Illarion is here and I am able to rp.

Illarion.org

I always sucked at titles..just read

I always sucked at titles..just read

Re: I always sucked at titles..just read

Re: I always sucked at titles..just read