The Tailoring Skill

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 4:06 am

The proposal I would like to make is about the process involved in tailoring. What I mean is all the stuff you must do before you can tailor an item(shearing the wool or getting the leather, spinning the wool, weaving the yarn into cloth). Right now all the things you must do before being able to tailor an item are not skills. I think that stuff like shearing wool, spinning wool, weaving the yarn should all be skills and have success rates depending on your skill. This I believe would be more realistic and would make tailored items more prized.<- ( Dyluck's Post)
I hope that you (illarion staff) when you have the time will implement this into the game like you implemented the gemcutting skill.
-Thank you for your time!

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:00 am

I put in the gemcutting skill on a few players request, fully expecting people not to like it. I was suprised that I haven't heard a single complaint.

With all the steps invovled in tailoring:
Shearing (animal husbandry)
Spinning (spinster)
Weaving (weaver)
Tailoring (Tailor)

you now have 4 different skills. If you fail on any one of those, the item doesn't get made.

We could perhaps lump them into 2 (animal husbandry and tailoring, or wooling and tailoring) but htat would still make it difficult.

The other option is to lump them all uner the tailoring skill. Which basically means the tailoring skill check would have to be done on each step. And as to not overbalance tailors, you would't learn on each step but perhaps the last.

What is it you are seeking?

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:06 am

I think Elaraith's idea is that this makes it a lot harder to tailor things so then tailored things would be worth more to people, which it isn't now. This might have worked for something like blacksmithing to make a platemail more valuable, but for tailored items that people hardly ever buy anyways, it wouldn't help to make the "market price" increase if people don't buy them anyways. I think this would just make less people want to become tailors. Then again this effect might make tailored items more valuable too if there are less tailors. So I don't know, seems like a risky thing to do that I'm not sure what the outcome will be.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 10:27 pm

Greetings!
@Separdum I think that all the things to be done before an actual item can be tailored should be separate skills. Therefore raw wool, balls of yarn, cloth etc would be sellable to Eliza. This would also create more profession such as shepherd, weaver, spinner etc just as in real life. Also for spinners this would mean buying wool from shepherds and for weavers buying yarn from spinners and for tailors buying cloth from weavers. I think this would boost player interaction as well

. And what you said last about lumping them all into the tailoring skill was on my mind too...that would mean every action done before an actual item can be tailored would increase tailoring skill. I dont think this would be too good as it is unrealistic and makes tailoring an easier skill to master.
Basically what I want to propose is for weaving, spinning, shearing to be added as new skills like gemcutting. Im sure there will be the complainers and troublemakers as always but overall I think it will be for the better. Also as I proposed in Dyluck's post in relation to tailoring (and baking) being unpopular I think making tailored items and baking items a bit more useful would increase general demand for such items. Perhaps there could be cloaks that hid you from view etc? Again these are all just my wandering thoughts open for comment...though I hope for them to be added to the game

@Dyluck My orginal thinking was no along the lines of making tailoring harder (heavens no! tailoring is hard enough as I know from tailoring all the time) but for increasing player interaction and making tailoring more realistic. To increase market price for tailored items I think this would perhaps help but making tailored items have more use would increase demand more.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 12:00 am

I see, but requiring more skills to complete a tailored product and more skills involved would make it inevitably "harder" overall. ie more steps, lengthier time.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 12:22 am

Well, wait for some of the server changes that are being worked on to come to fuition. Then we'll see.

Xaveria · Post by **Xaveria** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:26 am

But you all forgot one important thing!

It is nice to tailor but it is the work you earn less for everything you produce. If you make it harder to produce these things there must be another thing too. The cloths have to get holes and you just wear a robe link a net on your schoulder - otherwise nobody will buy a new one.

Sorry for saying that - but my char earns her money by tailoring and dont have much of the other skills. I tried to play it in the way you normaly tailor. You have to have dexterety to get more than a sac.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:46 am

these skills shouldn't be harder. it isn't really difficult to sheare a sheap, and spinning and weaving isn't difficult too (i have spin wool in the age of 9 and it wasn't difficult). how could you fail in shearing a sheap? or in spinning? it isn't possible. besides it is really easy to use a loom. you have only to do a few movements at the loom and the cloth is ready.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:50 pm

@ Dyluck That is true, but through more player interaction...it would not be so bad.
@Separdum After the server changes? That would be fine, but I was thinking if it was liked it maybe could be implemented like the gemcutting skill was. By the way a passing thought I have is: Does it take much work to implement a skill? Or is it one of those things where GMs can just do it with a few clicks? Anyways, thanks for spending the time on looking in on my ideas.
@Xaveria Again, I think if there were people that actually went and became master at shearing, spinning, weaving etc. Tailors would not have that hard a time if they just bought the cloth from the weavers. But I agree there would have to be another change...like the increase of the value of tailored items as I mentioned earlier....
@Galim Hmmm some people make there whole life devoted to shearing sheep you know(shepherds). It really isn't difficult to shear a sheep you say? Go try it some time, I'll be surprised if you dont end up cutting the poor sheep with your shears. Spinning wool is easy true any person can do that. But not all can spin wool so that every thread of wool is saved and made into the finest strong yarn. Same with the loom. Again maybe you should go try to make some cloth with a loom someday. If it is your first time you would probably end up having a tangled mess and wasted yarn.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:53 pm

wow thats a lot of steps to possibly fail at

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 11:06 pm

@elaralith

you know, in illarion we kill the sheaps to get the wool ^^. sheapshearing, spinning and weaving isn't difficult. it requires only a few trials to learn it. it isn't difficult enough to make a skill out of it.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 11:46 pm

@Galim The better way to get wool right now in illarion is to use scissors on sheep. Killing them is not the best way. And as you say it currently requires no skill. And you are right in saying that "in illarion" right now all the things that have been mentioned require no skill, but that is why they are being proposed right now!

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 1:56 am

oh come on its already hard enough why make it harder?

Besides its supposed to be a fantasy game not too realistic you know.
And yes it is quite hard to make skill out of it, unless you excessively hypnotize yourself to work hours at a time.DONT DO IT

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 2:39 am

@Kringin Illarion is mainly a RPG game and having some things realistic enhances roleplaying a whole lot. Of course there is the fantastical as well and that is all good and well.

Loki Feuerhaar · Post by **Loki Feuerhaar** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:23 am

Well, i like the idea to make every workstep a single skill.
Of course this change should affect every other profession.
So for example if smithing (i dont do it, but i have no better example) would be changed that you have to melt iron bars first, i would be happy to see a "Melting" Skill in my status-window.

Kringin,
again i am very unpleased about you shouts to make everything simpler. That is completly againts the development of this game.

I realy hope crafting, no matter what item, will be changed dramaticly to become harder for everyone.

With best greetings
Loki

Faramier · Post by **Faramier** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:54 pm

Actually shearer and weaver etc are already professions, even if they are small ones, I have made much money in the trade of cloth, shearing is easy whicheverway you look at it, it you put a failiure rate in all it would do would make you have to click more.

As someone pointed out shearing a sheep and using looms etc are all very easy. In victorian days girls of 3 used to help their mothers spin wool, are you really saying to demote us to a level below that?

I see that you wish to up the price of tailoring products but tailors are scarse as it is and creating more possibilities for error will just make people frustrated and deter them from tailoring.

If you want to up the price of tailoring products then you need to be able to make something worth it, player to player is how tailoring should go, 12gp to buy trousers from the npc, 4 gp to sell them to eliza. If you sell to players you could get at least 10gp per trouser.

Stop looking to the game developers to solve your problems, look to each other.

Guingalan (recently deleted, still waiting to know why),

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:49 am

@ Loki It is true that all the crafts should be changed to be a bit more advanced as you proposed. But the reason I am suggesting tailoring be done first is because of how I feel tailoring right now is the most underrated craft and least popular.
@Guingalan Hmm I see what you mean. I think this new proposal I have should solve things a bit: How about if my original proposal is followed through with making weaving, shearing, and spinning etc skills in themselves ...how about having wool, yarn, and cloth be sold by an NPC?
Also since weaving etc would be professions unto themselves why not have their products such as cloth be able to be sold not only to other players but to NPCs as well? This I think would maybe make this proposal a bit better. Again just my thoughts. As for shearing, spinning etc being easy to do I have already said what I think about that if you will just look up a few posts. Also the main reason I came up with this proposal was not mainly to raise the price of tailored items but to make things better for RPG and encourage more player interaction...What I think would raise tailored items(and baked items) more would be if they were given more uses. Such as having certain cloaks cause invisibility...etc

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 2:34 am

@ Loki, I am not shouting really, and second i never said anything about making anything simple i just wish it to be as it is, sorry you see it that way. It is perfect just as it is right now, but somethings must be changed and really some things are just too simple to have a skill over, you see my point?
Alright making every workstep would just complicate more things, and it does seem nice but some skills belong and relate to one another, so therefore shouldn't some of the worksteps give partial experience to the main skill instead of having a tangle of multiple skills for worksteps? But yes some things must have multiple skills for worksteps. you see what i am trying to say?

@ Elaralith, alright you are tell me that having some realistic things enhances roleplay? Explain how, i must know this. (dont take this in a bad way)
I mean if it were to have such things then simply noone would really have time to roleplay at all. Every game must have a limit and every idea must be questioned in order to please other people, maybe not the majority or for the minority or the other way around. You see my point?

Thank you for listening.

Loki Feuerhaar · Post by **Loki Feuerhaar** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:48 am

Kringin,

"it is perfect as it is" ? Well, Illarion is curently under heavy development, in the first steps of the creation and very unbalanced.

I dont think we can take it "as it is".

I still dont understand why you fear some more workesteps? Alright it would complicate the crafiting of items, clothing, metalworks or what ever.
Is that such a problem ?
Would increase trading, would give these items some real value and nobody would be able to do all on his own.

I mean if it were to have such things then simply noone would really have time to roleplay at all.

Just take the time you need to roleplay. You dont need to haste yourself in order to rise some skills, just relax a bit. Skillgain will come with time.

By the way, not every idea needs to be questioned amog the player comunity, if the creators of this game think that it should belong in the game, they could just add it.
After all we are nothing more than simple testers, and dont have real rights to claim anything.

Loki

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:04 pm

As making the products of tailoring more worthy, you need to add the possibility, that clothes get damaged by time, like items you lay on the ground. Maybe, after a month, cloths disappear.
This is also useful for weapons and other equipment, used by a person (not in the depot).

On the other hand, I think, more skills for tailoring wouldn't make tailoring more attractive.
The only thing, I can think of, is making one skill for leather and one for wooltailoring. Cause these two materials are different in the way, they were produced and manufactured.

Faramier · Post by **Faramier** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 7:02 pm

I think that having weaving etc as thier own skills would be a good amd productive compromise, as far as tailor to tailor trading goes at the moment it is to a minimum, tailors are independant, I tried to break this by selling half my cloth for thread and so giving both of us what we needed but if you introduce new professions in this way it would incourage more of this which can only be a good thing. I think one of the main desires of all the players here is to strengthen the community and rely on each other more than on themselves, a truly liberal system?

Guingalan,

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 1:12 am

@Kringin Having some things realistic as they were in the medieval enhances the roleplaying experience because it provides an environment where characters can do more things. After all what is roleplaying but actions?
@Aragon Again my main intention in this proposal was not to make tailoring things more valuable though it could have that effect. I think that to make tailored things more valuable more uses should be put to them(wizard's hat enhances mage's power?). What you have proposed for cloth and other items decaying over time is an excellent idea! Perhaps the GMs could make it so that items decayed even if you carried them just like they do when you leave them on the ground. But then there would have to be people that could repair such things and spells to stop the decay process etc. I disagree with having leather tailoring and wool tailoring separate skills. Both of them are not so different from each other that they should be made into separate skills. On the other hand sheep shearing, weaving etc are VERY different from tailoring....
@Guingalan You have hit on what I have been trying to say right on the mark

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 1:21 am

@ Elaralith, you are right at that. I hope they make certain skills easier to obtain then other so you dont have to work too much at petty skills. But as you get better you should be able to get more wool then just 1. Besides tailoring isnt a ignored skill, especially not by me, its just not worth enough money to bother with.
@ Loki, I am not really concerned with skill gain. But shouldnt the work steps be part of the main skill? well whatever as long as its not to the extreme.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:25 am

Bringing this topic up again...Again I think weaving, spinning and shearing should be their own skills separate from tailoring. Something that could be done if they were made separate skills...For spinning the chance of tangling up your wool, #me tangles up the wool. For weaving the chance of knotting all the many threads in the loom, #me makes a mess out of the yarn. For shearing the chance of missing, #me misses the wool.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:00 am

If there is no new information to add, why revive it?

Iqloo · Post by **Iqloo** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:16 pm

No! No No No! Enough skills already! There cant be a skill for every action we do. When they add more items, maby we could think about more skills then.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:06 pm

@Separdum Read again please...there is inf act new information that has been brought to my mind by a recent proposal. As well, it has been you who has insisted that related information be discussed in the older threads. It would have been much easier I can assure you for me to just make a new thread.
Hint: the #me functions
@Iqloo Why exactly are you against new skills? New skills does not mean you lose your current skills etc. New skills just means more player interaction and illarion becoming a more complex and enjoyable game.

Some more new information I would like to present that proves that weaver's actually were a very separate craft from tailoring.
"Women in medieval time used papyrus and various reeds to weave together baskets and the like, as well as using yarn to weave cloth with a loom. They did not use a thread and needle to sew together the straw baskets etc. etc."

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:26 am

i skipped most of the posts, i dont particularly like the idea but it is a pretty logical one, so my idea is to have a textile maker, whatever you would call that, this would encompass shearing,spinning,and weaving of wool.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:28 am

The lazy side of many cause them all to dislike proposals that could cause more work, but would enhance the RP atmosphere and increase player interaction...
@Gro'bul Its logical and realistic in the medieval-style which matters most of course.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:01 am

If weaving, spinning, and shearing are made separate skills and the new professions of Weaver and Spinner are made here are somethings each of the professions could make besides what they can do now:
Weaver: Baskets, mats, carpets, rugs, scrolls, hats
Spinner: Different kinds of strings. For example- silk, yarn, cotton
These could be like the gemstones;each type of "string ball" would have a different value. Silk of course would be of most value and so on.

I suggest that if weaving, spining, and shearing be made separate skills that products from these crafts be sellable to the NPC merchant just as other crafts have items that are sellable to the NPC merchant. For such items like wool that come from shearing I think a new currency should be made to buy and sell such items as one gold coin is way too much...(or for now it could be something where it 5 wool can be traded for one gold coin)