Forum Avatars / Forum-Avatare

Azuros · Post by **Azuros** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:46 pm

are the signatures even working? We tried doing that but it didn't work

nmaguire · Post by **nmaguire** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:46 pm

Gryphius wrote: Concerning copyright issues: I know that spreading song lyrics is considered illegal too. Does that mean i've got to quit singing Monty Python's "Lumberjack Song" ingame?

I see the day coming, when even 'remembering' a song's lyrics is being sued as unauthorized duplication.

No! Don't get rid of that! If there's a lawyer IG we can PK them

Devrah Liioness · Post by **Devrah Liioness** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:24 pm

I don't know if German policies differ, but in America, I have experienced legal disrupt due to a similar copyright situation; a friend of mine listed their website as Dell Reseller (which they were) and used the Dell logo. Dell, as you know, is a huge, multi-million dollar corporation with some of the best lawyers money can buy, and all they did was simply ask him to remove the logo from the website, which he did.

Every forum I can posibly think of has users that use unauthorized avatars.

Furthermore, we are not offering images for free that would otherwise be paid for. Every "unauthorized" avatar on this site was found by surfing the web, thus the images were freely available anyway.

Perhaps an easier way to solve the problem would be a simple disclaimer on the main page or the forum page, expressing that no one claims any rights or priveliges, and all images are copyright their artists or owning entities only?

martin · Post by **martin** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:41 pm

Devrah Liioness wrote:Every "unauthorized" avatar on this site was found by surfing the web, thus the images were freely available anyway.

That doesn't matter at all.

Perhaps an easier way to solve the problem would be a simple disclaimer on the main page or the forum page, expressing that no one claims any rights or priveliges, and all images are copyright their artists or owning entities only?

That doesn't help at all.

Martin

Japheth · Post by **Japheth** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:28 pm

Fully legal (and topical) now.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:28 pm

Thurbert~ · Post by **Thurbert~** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:29 pm

Nice avatars...

Devrah Liioness · Post by **Devrah Liioness** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:32 pm

I still don't understand, maybe because I can't understand the German very well. Why on Earth would you get in trouble for using found pictures on the web? Aren't copyright laws only applicable for commercial use? (i.e. for a company using the images to make money?)

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:40 pm

It's because people are greedy enough to suck the money out of our pockets for the stupidest reasons. People sue one another for stupid, inane things every day. This is because they are filthy, filthy leeches.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:40 pm

Devrah Liioness wrote:I still don't understand, maybe because I can't understand the German very well. Why on Earth would you get in trouble for using found pictures on the web? Aren't copyright laws only applicable for commercial use? (i.e. for a company using the images to make money?)

No, they state that any reproduction is technically illegal. Atleast for intellectual copywrites, which includes Art.

Taylor · Post by **Taylor** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:49 pm

Any reproduction made with the intent of SELL Cliu. The Internet is a free-trade enterprise in America. basically, if you put a picture on the internet, within 10 minutes, that picture will have been already used, and you will never be able to remove the picture from the internet for the rest of your life. These pictures are put on the internet for the sole purpose of advertisement for a sell. Why would an artist not want someone to use that picture for another part of the internet as added advertisement for that specific picture.

If you are truely serious about continueing with this bullshit. Anybody that got their art from Deviantart should message the artist and get a written consent sent directly to Alatar. This will stop all confusion, or atleast I hope.

Devrah Liioness · Post by **Devrah Liioness** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:51 pm

I still don't think it makes sense. Two points to consider:

1) The admins of Illarion can't be expected to be responsible for every poster's actions.

2) A large portion of players are underage and can't be held accountable anyway.

Aside from the fact that it still sounds pretty preposterous to be sued for using pctures off the web. I mean, every single person that has internet access in the world has used a found picture for some personal reason.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:26 pm

There is no discussion, its just a fact of law.
You copy,edit,use a copyrighted material without consent it is illegal. No exceptions, and fair use is irrelevent since avatars are not meant to be used for parody or criticism. They are used because of the aesthetics of that work, which is copyright infringement. There is NO exceptions to that. I beleive since the illarion server is a privately owned property they are obligated to enforce the laws or be held accountable since they, not the governing or regulating body, has the power.

martin · Post by **martin** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:59 pm

Devrah Liioness wrote:I still don't understand, maybe because I can't understand the German very well. Why on Earth would you get in trouble for using found pictures on the web? Aren't copyright laws only applicable for commercial use? (i.e. for a company using the images to make money?)

No, of course not. Copyright laws apply for everything. Otherwise you'd be allowed to copy and use any software you find for your personal use. This is obviously not legal.

Martin

martin · Post by **martin** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:03 pm

Devrah Liioness wrote:1) The admins of Illarion can't be expected to be responsible for every poster's actions.

Of course.
Not morally maybe, but legally.

2) A large portion of players are underage and can't be held accountable anyway.

Right, they are not. It's us who are responsible for anything that goes on on this server. It's our property, it's our responsibility.

Aside from the fact that it still sounds pretty preposterous to be sued for using pctures off the web. I mean, every single person that has internet access in the world has used a found picture for some personal reason.

While this is true, it doesn't make it legal.

Once a "clever" lawyer sees potential to make money with that, he'll do it.
Once he finds us, we're in real troubles.

Martin

martin · Post by **martin** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:13 pm

BTW, just another example:
There were times when there were several providers of internet forums (like this one) for people who did not have a server to host one. They were free, you had to register and were able to use them. These providers gave away the forums for free and they had thousands of them hosted on their server.
One day, someone found out that some nazi groups had one or two groups, the owners of the *servers* where the forums were hosted, were sued. It was a tragedy, not only that the servers disappeared, also the owners suddenly were confronted with problems they never thought they'd have.

Another thing:
If you have a homepage, you are responsible for all the pages you link! So, for example, if you put a link on site X on your page, and something illegal happens on site X (which is NOT your site! You just put a link on your site pointing there!), YOU can be helt responsible for that unless you state otherwise!
(You can find that rather often on german sites:

Mit Urteil vom 12. Mai 1998 hat das Landgericht
Hamburg entschieden, dass man durch die Ausbringung
eines Links die Inhalte der gelinkten Seite ggf. mit zu
verantworten hat.

meaning

On the 12th of may 1998, the ...court in Hamburg decided that linking a page makes you, under some circumstances, responsible for the contence of that site

I tell you, it's the law. It's bad, it's aweful, it's terrible and it's stupid -- but it's the law.

Next time you watch the Simpsons, watch out for the scene where someone imagines a world without lawyers.

Martin, law-hater

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:27 pm

Any reproduction made with the intent of SELL Cliu.

No, intelligent copywrite laws protect from any form of distro./altering and such.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:53 am

I fought the law, and the law won

Japheth · Post by **Japheth** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:56 am

You may have won this time, Law, but next time I'll know your weakness. That's right, Law, I have in my possession one cannister of the lethal component known as AMENDMENT!

And so forth.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:00 am

I hate that all. Now we have to show pics of our chars in secret, as if we would trade drugs

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:33 am

But in the end, isn't dealing with the addiction what Illarion is all about?

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:11 am

Next time you watch the Simpsons, watch out for the scene where someone imagines a world without lawyers. Wink

hehe, that was a good one.

So isn't there any way you can make some sort of statement saying you're not responsible for fooser's stolen pic?

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:25 am

I've seen forums of this type before that were made so that instead of users uploading their avatars, players hosted their avatars themselves and linked to them..

That would make things fair and square in other countries, but in the case of Germany you mention that people are responsible for what their site links to.

And it's illegal to be a Nazi in Germany? That sounds like thoughtcrime, to me. Welcome to Engsoc.

Taliss Kazzxs · Post by **Taliss Kazzxs** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:11 am

I’m not the best artist in the world but I have decent skill, I would be willing to attempt at a few avatars if any one would wish me to.

J S · Post by **J S** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:20 am

You draw like a God.
Stop being modest,
it's n00bish.

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:00 am

Copyrights must be visible on whatever the product/piece/work is, otherwise there is no way to trace a copyright infringement. Therefore, don't steal someone's work if it has "XXX (c) year XXXX."

I really think that all of you are bitching and arguing about nothing important. If you don't have the common sense to look into the mind of a stupid person, you deserve to be sued for no reason.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:03 am

cain,

sure, you dont see any problems. its just because you wont have to pay
when its lawyer-time....

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:05 am

That's right, because I won't be stupid enough to steal blatantly copyrighted work.

"Pay when it's Lawyer-time?" What does that even mean?

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:11 am

You know exactly what it means.

If the Illarion staff don't want to tempt a lawsuit, however frivolous, they can take whatever measures they want.

I just hope those measures don't result in an inability for me to display my joyful, and very legal, avatar.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:18 am

that means, that the german law is legalizing outright extorsion.by the law, a lawyer, who finds an avatar, that is copyrighted, just contacts the copyrightholder, then he writes a nice letter, demanding to cease using the copyrighted avatar. the catch in this scheme is: the lawyer states a sum, the user of the avatar has to pay. (indemnization for the copyrightholder and fees for the lawyer) the amount of this sum is at the discretion of the lawyer/copyrightholder.
so, for one little avatar of a square inch, they can demand and recieve a thousand euro, if they want.
the user either pays up, or gets sued. once a judge states, that there was a copyright missuse, the user pays the indemnization, the (then somewhat higher) fees of that lawyer, fees for his own lawyer, and legal fee, for the time of the court.
together easyly more than five times the sum originally demanded.

now the good news for you personally: if i write "user" that is not you, but the legal holder of the forum.

you personally would just have the inconvenience, to search a new rollplay game....

korm

.... and yes, it's outright crazy, it's unfair and shitty.
the german laws are allready a good way into the implementation of the orwellian inventions.