SEVERE game-balancing problems

[NirAntae]

Before I go through the trouble of typing out what I am sure will be a very long post, I am asking nicely that everyone keep random not-really-on-topic comments to themselves. I'm putting this here so the devs can all get a feel for what's going on, per request. If you have something meaningful to add, by all means do so, but let's keep this serious, please?

Okay. Most of you know me. I'm not one to just sit and complain much. And yes I know this is still an alpha-stage game, and things are in constant flux. That being said, there is a severe problem developing in the game right now.

From what I've seen, the problem mainly stems from different devs having their own ideas of 'what the problem with the game' is right now, and fixing that little section... without really paying attention to how all these changes combine with the other changes to affect the characters.

And the effect it's had is that the game is no longer enjoyable to play. At all. You've made it TOO realistic. Here are a few of the problems, which individually wouldn't be too bad, but combined have made the game impossible:

1. Monsters are TOO hard. Maggie is one of the better fighters in the game right now, but one skeleton comes close to killing her, two and she's dead. Even two of the stronger mummies will kill her. Forget bandits or trolls or ogres. Standing in the middle of town, in good armor, a troll randomly appeared and killed her before the 'first-fight lag' even wore off. So basically... I was standing there, there was a bit of lag, and the next thing I saw, there was a troll behind my clouded self.

2. Characters are TOO weak. Goes hand in hand with above.

3. Skills are TOO hard to gain. You *have* to powergame to accomplish anything, and forget it if you can't sign in pretty much every day for a few hours. I've been playing for a year now basically (though granted there was about a 4-month break in there) and still don't have a single yellow skill (though yes, two of her fighting skills are close).

4. You can now die if you don't have the luck to find a farmer/cook... of whom there are very, VERY few right now... this is because running out of food bar kills you, and eating 'raw' foods (or even the easily cooked ones, like ham) makes your food bar DROP more often than it raises it.

5. Death is WAY too harsh right now, so long as the other things are a problem. In the first few months I played, I think Maggie died twice, both in extreme circumstances. In the last couple of months, she dies every 2-3 days, and I'm being *careful*. But with this new death system, you can literally lose *months* of work in ten seconds.


There are some other issues as well, but these are the worst in my opinion. All together, they have seriously made it to the point that I'm ready to give up on the game, because every time I talk to a dev who's dealing with one of these systems, they say 'but this is so much better/more realistic/whatever', but none seem to see how the accumulation of all these factors are affecting the characters. Seriously, honestly, all together they make the game no more fun. I'm ready to throw in the towel completely and go find some game where I don't have to spend all my time powergaming to get anywhere. I thought this game was supposed to *discourage* that... but you've now made it an absolute necessity if you want to accomplish *anything*.

[xBaurusx]

3. Skills are TOO hard to gain. You *have* to powergame to accomplish anything, and forget it if you can't sign in pretty much every day for a few hours. I've been playing for a year now basically (though granted there was about a 4-month break in there) and still don't have a single yellow skill (though yes, two of her fighting skills are close).

This is probably the most important thing I THINK.... i agree on all measures. I have a character that plays the Lute and i will be honest here.. i went to the middle of the forest and just played the lute a bunch becuase my Rp practicing was not working well.. after about a half hour i had gottin 2 blue swirles and it is just over dark blue. this is rediculous..

[Misjbar]

3. Skills are TOO hard to gain. You *have* to powergame to accomplish anything, and forget it if you can't sign in pretty much every day for a few hours. I've been playing for a year now basically (though granted there was about a 4-month break in there) and still don't have a single yellow skill (though yes, two of her fighting skills are close).

This is probably the most important thing I THINK.... i agree on all measures. I have a character that plays the Lute and i will be honest here.. i went to the middle of the forest and just played the lute a bunch becuase my Rp practicing was not working well.. after about a half hour i had gottin 2 blue swirles and it is just over dark blue. this is rediculous..

When I still had a magic char, it was near impossible to gain skill. I didn't gain any after practicising a lot. Not at ALL. While her skills were greenish. Frankly, I agree with all points raised above, and cannot add anything more than I haven't done already.

I know we are meant to make suggestions, but I cannot think up any right now. I hope some other people do have a few (or many, whichever).

[Athian]

consider this Signed.

i lost months of hard work on Athian, and a few other characters. i was even considering just giving it up at this point. the need for 'realism' is starting to choke this game to death me thinks

[Arameh]

I agree totally, training a character is MUCH too harsh, NPC's are way too hard, you need to be average skill with good fighting attributes to beat a sword wielding mummy, trolls and ogres I guess can only be killed with very high skilled character, the awful hardness to train is why more and more peoples have to spend full RL days at the crypt, needing huge amount of food, and waiting an awful amount of time for their healt to go back up. The solution I see in this is more communication between developpers, and possibly 'asking' before changing something that can have a high influence on the game, to have more opinions and see different point of views.

[Athian]

well since we're just players, they technically don'tr have to ask us anything, but curtiousy makes a happy gaming community. AT least for warn us. there that lovely devolopment thread for that kind of thing and yet skill so many surprises.

[Cliu Beothach]

These are just my opinions on each topic:

1. Not really sure. I only really have one "fighting" character that I play. He has barely any skills and can take a mummy with barely any armor. Percieve that as you will, but I assume with time that he will be able to take more.

2. No comment

3. Skill gain seems to go easily for me, atleast in the time department. Yes, I do use about half my time "training" with one of my characters, but that is not for skill but in preparation and just playing the game. In a day of...maybe 1 1/2 hours of skill use, I can get 5 to 7 levels (he is still not too good at any of his skills so I assume it to move rather swifftly).

4. Cooking is easy, it takes minimal effort to live without a cook. Personally, I don't think that cooks are any more valuable now but it isn't because the hunger system is lack luster. Within a day, my character stocked up on free materials and spent about 20 to 40 copper for tools. Now he is set for a long long time.

5. I haven't died since this whole death stuff happened so I cannot really add comment on the system, but it was ask for and we recieved.


Comments:

My characters usually have one horrible stat and one outstanding stat, the others are a bit above or below average. Just thought that would help put things into perspective.

[Juniper Onyx]

1. My character Alexander can kill 4-5 mummies before he has to stop, and only 1-2 skellies. I think he's about the same level as maggie. It seems normal to me. Besides, if you see a troll......RUN!

2. Characters are too weak because it takes so long to advance without 'powergaming'. After a few deaths "What's the point!" It's rather discouraging.

3. See #2

4. no cooks and farmers are only because they have been so useless until now. I think more people will at least try to farm and cook now. Give it time.

5. The new death system shouldn't have been implemented just now. I mean, don't the devs follow the RP IG? There are (counting my fingers) one.......two......., yes three wars going on right now! Heck of a time to make Death Harsher!!!!

[Ku 'Agor]

I agree with Maggie. Every word of it.

3. Skills are TOO hard to gain. You *have* to powergame to accomplish anything, and forget it if you can't sign in pretty much every day for a few hours. I've been playing for a year now basically (though granted there was about a 4-month break in there) and still don't have a single yellow skill (though yes, two of her fighting skills are close).

Wait! So you mean powergaming IS agaisnt the rules?

This note is for people quoting me.

I was kidding.

[Athian]

@ Cliu

when you have a character at the lower end of the skill pool, he'l seem to learn fairly quickly, but once you pass a certain point learning become harshly slower (for obvisous reasons). but even as you are now. if persay i came and killed you, you'd probably lose about half the skill you've accumulated.

[Estralis Seborian]

I agree with the posted points. I do not enjoy playing the game like it is right now.

Illarion has to improve (instead of getting worse!) to attract more players. A lot.

[Alytys Lamar]

Only you can do is run, run away when you not will lost many items, many skill-points.

But Aleytys is a fighter, so she can't permanently escape, this would be implausible, not real, not good RP.

so - I agree with Maggie and the others

[Dónal Mason]

Signed.

[Nitram]

1. Monsters are TOO hard [...]
2. Characters are TOO weak. Goes hand in hand with above.

I hardly can say what the reason for this is.
Fact is: For the fighting system a player and a monster is COMPLETLY the same.

To give you some values. Lets take the strongest one under the mummies

Aggressiv Mummy
Attributes:
agility: 11 - 17
constitution: 5 - 7
dexterity: 7 - 9
essence: 7 - 11
intelligence: 7 - 10
perception: 4 - 6
strength: 15 - 20

Items:
simple dagger (seldom)
sabre (often)
orc helmet (seldom)

Skills:
dodge: 0 - 2
parry: 10 - 15
slashing weapons: 15 - 20
tactics: 10 - 15
wrestling: 25 - 35

This is the strongest mummy. Is this really to much?

3. Skills are TOO hard to gain.

The 10th time: a bug. But i hear something was changed in this case, today. You should try again.

4. You can now die if you don't have the luck to find a farmer/cook...

Hope that there are soon some more around

Seriously just some minutes ago i changed a few things in this matter.
Poison doesn't have such a huge effect any longer now. And the calculation WHEN a something to eat is not that good, is a little player friendlier now

5. Death is WAY too harsh right now, so long as the other things are a problem

I don't know why the deaths are currenlty such extrem. But we are working on it.

Nitram

[Yandran]

Also das die Monster zu heftig sind , also zumindest mal Skelette oder dergleichen kann ich aus meiner Sicht nicht bestätigen .
Die einzigen Monster die mir einfallen die wirklich heftig sind , sind die am westlichen Waldrand oberhalb des alten Leuchtturms , die schaffen meinen Char spätestens nach dem zweiten Schlag , wobei ich denke da ist auch Magie im Spiel .

[Ku 'Agor]

Good job Nitram, you proved to us the only thing anyone ever trains on is killable.

Now, let's take the next step up. Tell me the next monster that's stronger from mummy that are trainable in mass numbers like mummies.

I would assume that it has about three times those stats, and carries better gear.

[Nitram]

Now, let's take the next step up. Tell me the next monster that's stronger from mummy that are trainable in mass numbers like mummies.

No way

[Ku 'Agor]

That wasn't my point in posting that.

There are no inbetweens with monsters from skeletons to mummies, thus making it a total hell to train.

Don't even tell me the monster name, just give me the stats.

[NirAntae]

Nitram... perhaps I should have phrased things slightly differently.

Monsters are TOO hard compared to the amount you can learn from them. Those mummies are still very dangerous for Maggie to face if I'm not very careful; however, she can't learn from them any more.

Put another way... that would be fine for a mid-to-high level monster. It's too much for one of the most basic/weak monsters.

[Arameh]

Yes Maggie is right, characters without great fighting attributes can stop learning from mummys totally and being completely unable to fight a single skeleton.

[Salathe]

i'd like to agree with all these points above!

[Ku 'Agor]

agility Salathe Grade
constitution Salathe Grade
dexterity Salathe Grade
essence Salathe Grade
intelligence Salathe Grade
perception Salathe Grade
strength Salathe Grade
willpower Salathe Grade


Skills:
dodge: 254-255
parry: 254-255
slashing weapons: 254-255
tactics: 254-255

x)

[NirAntae]

i train on demon skeletons, what are there stats?

....


Honestly, what was the point of this? Why was it necessary to post such a blatantly braggart statement? Of course maxed out characters will not feel the effects of the things troubling the up-and-coming. The whole point of my post is that it is now impossible to GET anywhere, not impossible to do things if you're already there.

[Ku 'Agor]

Salathe, as much as I lub yoo I frankly agree with maggy.

As I told you before in OOC, make a new character and then try training him. After you get frustraited stand infront of a skeleton and let the pain ooze.

Get to the cross then check your stats.

If you did this right, you should now hate alot more things then you used to.

[Salathe]

i did try this last night, but the think the char is too new and doesnt get any punishment because of being so new.

ok im sorry about ym post, but wasnt trying to say that what you said is wrong. Im sure its hard as hell for you to train. I havent lvl'ed in anyhting after about 7 or so skill caps against demon skeletons. Though i doubt its not as bad as training at your lvls

[Ku 'Agor]

Salathe, do you have any Int at all?

I've kindly requested Cassandra to tip my attributes more into intelligence so Ku can learn more. If this happens and I still struggle to gain skils, then I will post it to add to the heat agaisn't level lag.

[Grant]

1. Only thing that gives Grant any real trouble with good leather armor on is Trolls and orges. I see no real problem with this, although it may be Maggie's attrubutes, same thing that happened to Stephen.

2. There really not, just depends on what armor, attrubutes, and what monster your fighting.

3. Before the recreation of Grant I noticed this. But thats basically how it should be and how it was in real life. Once you get to a certain skill with a sword in real life, it's harder to learn more techniques.

4. Maggie's rich enough, has enough friends, and is skilled enough to fight pigs. This shouldn't happen to her.

5. I die once a week I think. I really do think it's your attrubutes. Only thing I have ever lost with Grant is my language skills. Could you show me your attrubutes?

Oh and don't kill off Maggie!

[Korm Kormsen]

concerning cooks and farmers

normally i was allways lonely while planting on the fields of greenbriar.
today i had to wait, before i could plant. and could not go on planting, because somebody else planted the harvested squares at my heels.

i dont think there will be food shortage.

everybody and his uncle are asking for seed now.

up the farmers!

korm

[Arameh]

1. Only thing that gives Grant any real trouble with good leather armor on is Trolls and orges. I see no real problem with this, although it may be Maggie's attrubutes, same thing that happened to Stephen.

2. There really not, just depends on what armor, attrubutes, and what monster your fighting.

3. Before the recreation of Grant I noticed this. But thats basically how it should be and how it was in real life. Once you get to a certain skill with a sword in real life, it's harder to learn more techniques.

4. Maggie's rich enough, has enough friends, and is skilled enough to fight pigs. This shouldn't happen to her.

5. I die once a week I think. I really do think it's your attrubutes. Only thing I have ever lost with Grant is my language skills. Could you show me your attrubutes?

Oh and don't kill off Maggie!

Not every characters wanting to learn fighting can put all their attributes in it, ever thought about warlocks or characters with balanced attributes? I disagree with all your points, if there were any..

[Athian]

agree with Arameh. besides i doubt your skills are very high to begin with just yet Grant, you might not notice the loss, or since your still under that curb of learning you may be relearning at a good pace.

p.s. if your that good in fighting remind me to let loose some magical baddies in your general location