Concerning Character Remakes

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:09 pm

Balanced or Good stats =/= RP.

We can argue all we want how stats could hinder RP. A character design is not made by stats, but simply guide. His actions and reactions would still remain the same.

On the subject of an ever changing system. Isn't this still a beta game, and balancing will be made. Expect change and try and prepare for it accordingly (if that is what you want).

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:47 pm

Athian wrote:i don't think i can ever agree with this statement. if this were true then systems wouldn't be designed to cater to max stat characters.

There you said that my points are untrue.
Now add the fact that I am not nativly speaking english and voilá we have a tasty piece of someone saying that all I stated was wrong.

@Cliu
We surely need some charisma checks from our NPCs in this game.
This will show how much stats can change the actions and reactions of your characters.

Blessed be the PnP'ers.

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:35 pm

The problem is, most people want to play a character that will most likely specialize into one direction ( Crafting, Fighting, Magic), and therefore distribute skills not "balanced" but in a way that will help them to be good at what they want to do, call it "talented".

So while a character with balanced skills would enable you to know a little bit of everything, everyone knows that the "cooking smithing fighter mage, bard cabbage juggling and planting warlock paladin archer"© is a character concept most people would frown upon.

And therefor people distribute their attributes in a way they *THINK* this would reassemble to someone who is suitable for the profession they thought for him to pick up by nature.

But this becomes very hard if, despite the stats being static, the requirements and attributes that will affect certain aspects of one profession change over and over again.

I will keep the offer of Cassandra in mind in case something like that happens to one of my characters.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:06 am

@Cliu
We surely need some charisma checks from our NPCs in this game.
This will show how much stats can change the actions and reactions of your characters.

Then we need a skill as well. Anyway, the success of a character isn't roleplay. A character trying something is RP, success and failure are merely products of RP.

Talaena Landessi · Post by **Talaena Landessi** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:29 am

Arent you suppose to RP your character like your stats are? I mean a person who has maxed fighting skills and a min of 1-3 intel wouldnt be smart at all right? Much less able to read and write am i correct? and if thier willpower is min wouldnt they be influenced very easy? I would think a character that has stats like that wouldnt be able to lead a town properly.....but instead i would think that as a dumb orc or a barbarian or an animal (though im not sure what the "animal" intelligence is.

If you made your character like that and still rp him as fully capable of reading and writing well along with bieng able to lead organizations and towns along with all the political intrigue and drama, wouldnt that be bad rp?

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:34 am

Everyone just uses low intel and willpower as an example and leaves every other stat in the dust.

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:36 am

Cliu Beothach wrote:Everyone just uses low intel and willpower as an example and leaves every other stat in the dust.

*inserts constitution, strength and all the other stats* Perhaps it was just an example? Anyhow, you do see the "problem" do you not?

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:41 am

Misjbar wrote:
Cliu Beothach wrote:Everyone just uses low intel and willpower as an example and leaves every other stat in the dust.
*inserts constitution, strength and all the other stats* Perhaps it was just an example? Anyhow, you do see the "problem" do you not?

I mean when complaining about players not "playing to their stats".

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:43 am

Ah, well that depends who you are talking to. I take it to heart to play out the way my constitution was configured etcetera, and I also forgot that at times. I think it would be good if people pointed this out to me.

Then again, I do not know exactly what the stance is on "playing by your stats".

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:49 am

Talaena Landessi wrote:Arent you suppose to RP your character like your stats are? I mean a person who has maxed fighting skills and a min of 1-3 intel wouldnt be smart at all right? Much less able to read and write am i correct? and if thier willpower is min wouldnt they be influenced very easy? I would think a character that has stats like that wouldnt be able to lead a town properly.....but instead i would think that as a dumb orc or a barbarian or an animal (though im not sure what the "animal" intelligence is.

If you made your character like that and still rp him as fully capable of reading and writing well along with bieng able to lead organizations and towns along with all the political intrigue and drama, wouldnt that be bad rp?

Woo that was a clear flame attempt upon the behaviour of Stephen Rothman, anyone else noticed?

Though the points are valid they can be dumped easily because NOBODY plays up to ALL of his stats.

Talaena Landessi · Post by **Talaena Landessi** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:59 am

You caught me, im guilty. but notice i said "arent you supposed to" i try my best to rp my characters by thier stats becouse thats what they are, they make up your character and they say alot about them, about what they are capable of. I just used him as a example. It just seems people complain about thier intelligence bieng low now yet they rp thier characters as at least average intelligence which if they played by thier actual intelligence stat they would be damn near retarded or at the level of an animal with just instincts guiding them.

*shrugs* whatever.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:04 am

Talaena Landessi wrote:You caught me, im guilty. but notice i said "arent you supposed to" i try my best to rp my characters by thier stats becouse thats what they are, they make up your character and they say alot about them, about what they are capable of. I just used him as a example. It just seems people complain about thier intelligence bieng low now yet they rp thier characters as at least average intelligence which if they played by thier actual intelligence stat they would be damn near retarded or at the level of an animal with just instincts guiding them.

*shrugs* whatever.

Yea, and unless you have an average stat character, your character should either never leave their bed, not be able to carry a bag, cannot jump or walk even straight, be nearly blind, be an empty shell, be a smell old man who insults everyone, and such.

If you have a character that has an above average stat than his below average stat should be as debilatating as lack of intel. As well, a nice point was made. If someone made an extremely intellegent character or charismatic, but cannot back it up...then everyone with a lesser stat than that character SHOULD act accordingly. So, not only is someone with low intelligence RP horribly if they are smart, but being smarter than someone who has a higher intelligence is bad RP. It is inherent that you will always have bad rp by this rule.

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:07 am

But if everyone had to BALANCE his character just to back up charming people with witty lines (INT) AND being a fighter (STR CON DEX) we wouldn't have the demi-god fighters we got running around right now and that'd be sad.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:08 am

The thing is, if we take the example of a fighter, its impossible to have a great fighter who has 10 intelligence, 10 willpower and 10 essence, just not to make him dumb. The problem is, everyone has the same amount of attributes to put, but in RL, someone can be both wiser, and stronger than another person, right? Attribute wise, this CANNOT be done, because we all have the same number (if we dont count quest characters), which would mean every character 'worth' the exact same if we RPed only with using attributes, that would pretty much suck, and THIS would be bad RP in my opinion.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:09 am

Faladron wrote:But if everyone had to BALANCE his character just to back up charming people with witty lines (INT) AND being a fighter (STR CON DEX) we wouldn't have the demi-god fighters we got running around right now and that'd be sad.

INT =/= charm

As well, the point was that the human factor in this equation would doom everyone to "bad roleplay".

Talaena Landessi · Post by **Talaena Landessi** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:16 am

why not just do another character wipe so everyone can start fresh? TaDA! Problems fixed. Everyone gets new characters with attributes that work better

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:17 am

Talaena Landessi wrote:why not just do another character wipe so everyone can start fresh? TaDA! Problems fixed. Everyone gets new characters with attributes that work better

No, that is still not what I meant.

Talaena Landessi · Post by **Talaena Landessi** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:22 am

i know im just bieng an ass hole....what can i say im in bad mood and i think that you should live with the cesequences of yoru actions, i know somewhere it says that it isnt advisable to make max/min character so those of us that have should learn to deal. Im dealing with it...i deleted the character and hey, guess what! No more problems i just created a new character and kept playing. Who cares if youve spent for ever and a day...its just a game and if you set your mind to it you can achieve anything in a reasonable time (besides magic which is dispicable ..player trainers..pfft)

Liles · Post by **Liles** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:21 am

Arameh_ wrote:The thing is, if we take the example of a fighter, its impossible to have a great fighter who has 10 intelligence, 10 willpower and 10 essence, just not to make him dumb.

I'm an alright fighter with Liles and I have 10 intellegene, 10 willpower and 10 essence.

I feel people need to play their stats because it's getting annoying seeing Uber chars being super intellegent when I accually have the right stat to be intellgent.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:31 am

i am not sure, if i caught well the point of cliu's posts.
but there is a very basic problem.
one can't play a not perfect character, without being frowned upon.
the only char, i am playing till now, is not very intelligent, has nearly no willpower and can't hear. when i dare to play that out, i get snappy ooc comments and turned backs. mainly from those chars/players, most mentioned or often wrighting in the "good roleplay" thread.
the players behind the chars simply don't have the patience, to roleplay anything that might derail their preplanned group-roleplay.

there are some exceptions, and some, who go along, when not in their "normal" company, but in general, daring to play a non superman char is castigated by a lot players.

korm

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:01 pm

Everybody's handsome, everybody's charming, everybody can be witty, everybody comes up with the right plans at the right time, everybody is muscular, everybody has never heard about the word "fear".

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:37 pm

Faladron wrote:Everybody's handsome, everybody's charming, everybody can be witty, everybody comes up with the right plans at the right time, everybody is muscular, everybody has never heard about the word "fear".

Indeed that's true with quite alot of characters. And I think that sucks, what would the world be without ugly people?
I've seen few females who don't have the word 'beautifull' in their description. And some don't even define it while everyone may consider beauty differantly.

Liles wrote:
I'm an alright fighter with Liles and I have 10 intellegene, 10 willpower and 10 essence.

I feel people need to play their stats because it's getting annoying seeing Uber chars being super intellegent when I accually have the right stat to be intellgent.

Again true. Some people simply want a 'perfect' character wich is quite annoying at times. And I'm not saying Stephen is a badly played character, he's a verry good and worked out personality I say. But with 3 int it is kind of unfair since there are those amoung us who actualy made their chars balanced so they could play them like it.

But a problem like this one can never be ended, there will always be those who play like that and you simply can't stop it. It's like crime, there will always be those who get away, no matter what.

So unless you plan on dumping the stats thing completely this will never happen.

And on the cook-paladin-farmer-everything else comment earlier: Why would someone not learn multiple things? With balanced stats and all those skills to train he can never become the best at any one of those.
Why *not* be a jack of all trades?

For instance, I'm doing electromechanics at school. That doesn't mean I can't know a bit of carpentry.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:02 pm

@Korm: Hey! I hope you're including me as one of those exceptions? When Dusty meets Tjalf, he tries to use arm and hand signals to communicate, shouting is actually rude. It's really fun and we can get things done. Besides, I don't think people use 'body' language enough in their RP (which is supposed to be 70% of all communication anyway) so I wanna thank Korm for providing a char. to really challenge RP. Keep it up, buddy!

@Kevin: Dusty isn't a perfect character. He like to be a Jack of all Trades only because he believe (RP reason for everything he does) that as a 'professional' merchant, he needs to provide his customers with anything they may need or be able to purchase anything they have. To buy things, you have to have a use for them through crafting or selling, and selling isn't as reliable. Again, few people actually 'buy' or 'request' things from player merchants. Most would rather take the easy way and just buy from NPC's. Even if players may be cheaper.

He's not a master at anything, and he admits this, but he tries. He will also admit that he is not a fighter or a mage, therefore he tends to 'run' from fights. If only he was better with the bow.... Dusty takes Death VERY seriously!

Yes, I also believe it's OK to be a Jack of All Trades, but let's RP this please. It shouldn't be commonplace.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:53 pm

well, dusty because of tjalfs bad memory i don't really remember. it's been such a long time, since we last met....

ok, get your jaw back up, guy! i really love it, to meet you.

i just withstood the temptation to name good examples, not to name the the snobby players as well.

but, you fishing so hard for compliments, i say you should get the "pro-noobee-medal" on the green band.

just one other mention - with Bogan Bjoernson we were shouting for konversation. that got us nearly chased out of Trollshome....

hope to meet you sooon, korm

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:41 pm

Juniper... You confused me there, care to explain a bit more?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being a jack of all trades, just that characters with 3 int shouldn't be to smart.

And... Was I talking about not taking death sereously?

Not that I know..

Cassandra Fjurin · Post by **Cassandra Fjurin** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:03 pm

Why do we want to play a RP? Because we can act as people we aren't if i want a boring and frusttrating game where i am a ugly human i can play the game called real life.... hey the graphics are much better than in illarion and the physic engine is very good. but the skillgain is rather low and the gameplay sucks.

ok i don't like all the mega heros but i won't forbit that because that is the funny part on illarion to be somewhat what you aren't in rl.

Siegfried Schtauffen · Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:59 pm

Anyway, I already know alot of people that have done it without GM permission, it seems that some people will just continue doing it, 'cuz most people got away with it.

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:08 pm

I guess this topic doesn't apply to Ku.

wewt.

The thing about Essence though.. I cant even begint o immagine how you're supposed to roleplay that.

Essence is supposed to be a supersticious thing that represents an item or person in a spiritual form, correct? How the hell does that effect someone's roleplay? Am I supposed to play 0 essence characters with;
"Hello. I am Joe. My parents died today from a tradgic accident involving a character who badly roleplays his low int. But whatever."

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:23 pm

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... php?t=9047

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:33 pm

Indeed. That's where I based my statement. How am I supposed to roleplay that?