Many times we in the community have argued over how to play a character to their attributes, or by roleplay. Some of us believe attributes should only be used to seperate technically the simple warriors from mages. Others believe attributes should effect how smart your character, hence low intell means you wont be leveling much nor writing much.
With the new skill system it has made it painfully clear that the dev's have made the decision the community has taken forever to make. ON a technically side, low intell means you will not level much if at all. This has led to numerous players (myself included) to consider remaking our characters to accomodate the current system.
Thus I spoke with Nitram about it and let slip I intended on giving Maggie Stephen's items so when the new Stephen was made he could pick up his items. Nitram said this was against the rules, under item sharing with characters I assume. However it is not a different character getting the items. It is the same character, getting the same items.
I do not see a problem with this, but I would like to see what the community thinks on this issue.
Concerning Character Remakes
Moderator: Gamemasters
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Garett Gwenour
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Delorges Rugend
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I see no problem with that, too. I mean Stephen stills Stephen, right?
And in my opinion, it's pretty understandably why you want to do this.
But the rules say that you can't give the stuff of one of your chars to another. And Stephen is not another char, you just created him new.
So I really see no problem.
And in my opinion, it's pretty understandably why you want to do this.
But the rules say that you can't give the stuff of one of your chars to another. And Stephen is not another char, you just created him new.
So I really see no problem.
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Keikan Hiru
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Cheater.
Its that simple.
How often did we tell you that you should not create min/max characters?
How often did we tell you that this will surely give you disadvantages now and in the future?
You want to take the easy way out ? Fine, but take all consequences of deleting a character.
Technicaly you create a new character, thats why rule #11 comes into action.
Its that simple.
How often did we tell you that you should not create min/max characters?
How often did we tell you that this will surely give you disadvantages now and in the future?
You want to take the easy way out ? Fine, but take all consequences of deleting a character.
Technicaly you create a new character, thats why rule #11 comes into action.
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Garett Gwenour
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Considering you just called me a cheater, Keikan, I will take it as a personal insult and will reply in a rather aggresive post. First of all your PO Darlok and got in abit of trouble for doing things you swore you didn't do, so don't call me a cheater. Secondly I have yet to do it.
Now that we got past your insult.
You have indeed said not to make max/min characters, at the same time you never said they would not be able to learn skill because of it. Infact you said nothing about the consequences. Perhaps if you so much as implied your character would not learn skill at all, people would have heeded your words? Instead it seemed the attributes would only mean your character wouldn't learn magic and would be very weak to resisting spells, so naturally, we (many people who wish to play characters that can handle massive demon attacks that many GMs like to spring on us) listened to you but figured we could live with mages overpowering our characters.
Now try another arguement, one less insulting to the PO and more like an adult. Thank you.
Now that we got past your insult.
You have indeed said not to make max/min characters, at the same time you never said they would not be able to learn skill because of it. Infact you said nothing about the consequences. Perhaps if you so much as implied your character would not learn skill at all, people would have heeded your words? Instead it seemed the attributes would only mean your character wouldn't learn magic and would be very weak to resisting spells, so naturally, we (many people who wish to play characters that can handle massive demon attacks that many GMs like to spring on us) listened to you but figured we could live with mages overpowering our characters.
Now try another arguement, one less insulting to the PO and more like an adult. Thank you.
Re: Concerning Character Remakes
I think this would be an endless discussion....we may speak about this laterGarett Gwenour wrote:Many times we in the community have argued over how to play a character to their attributes, or by roleplay. Some of us believe attributes should only be used to seperate technically the simple warriors from mages. Others believe attributes should effect how smart your character, hence low intell means you wont be leveling much nor writing much.
Did you even read the lines to wrote you minutes before? Its correct you can't learn with a low intelligence currently. This is caused by a nasty bug, we are working on it.Garett Gwenour wrote:With the new skill system it has made it painfully clear that the dev's have made the decision the community has taken forever to make. ON a technically side, low intell means you will not level much if at all.
But even, a low intelligence will allways cause that you learn slowlier as someone with a high intelligence.
Now Some will moan. "Vantage for the mages". But i can say: no. It everything works as it should (
) at mage with a high intelligence would learn magic (nearly) as fast as a warrior with low intelligence learns fighting. Then only the fighters with a high intelligence would learn faster.Will they create their characters again, if we solved the bug?Garett Gwenour wrote:This has led to numerous players (myself included) to consider remaking our characters to accomodate the current system.
This are players (included you) who just can't wait a little.
Indeed. Huge misstake from you to tell meGarett Gwenour wrote:Thus I spoke with Nitram about it and let slip I intended on giving Maggie Stephen's items so when the new Stephen was made he could pick up his items.
In my point of few a recreated character is a new character. And every new character starts in the same way. Skills and start equipment only from the starter pack.Garett Gwenour wrote:Nitram said this was against the rules, under item sharing with characters I assume. However it is not a different character getting the items. It is the same character, getting the same items.
The old and the new character are two different characters. Even if they have the same name. And to transfer the items from one char to the other one is in this point of few forbidden.
Else the "recreation" would be nothing else then a attribut change. And those who are able to do this, are asked not to do it with the characters of the players.
If the transfer of items in this case would be allowed the recreation is nothing else then a workaround for this decision not to change the attributes of players.
I hope my problem with the thing is clear.Garett Gwenour wrote:I do not see a problem with this, but I would like to see what the community thinks on this issue.
But i'm pretty interessed in the thinks of the others around here too.
Nitram
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Keikan Hiru
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You asked what I think about your plans and ideas.Garett Gwenour wrote:Considering you just called me a cheater, Keikan.
I will take it as a personal insult and will reply in a rather aggresive post.
First of all your PO Darlok and got in abit of trouble for doing things you swore you didn't do, so don't call me a cheater. Secondly I have yet to do it.
My comment is "Cheater", and it will remain this way.
If you feel insulted by this, it just proves my point of view, you feel guilty.
I never ever changed a single attribute at the character of "Darlok".
I however changed your attributes on the character "Grant Herion", randomly, almost everyday in a specific time frame.
Somepeople sometimes call this "A Quest".
If I would be able to forcast the future, I surely would not be here in my office and doing the work I am doing, but enjoy the billion's of Euros I won in the lottery.Garett Gwenour wrote: You have indeed said not to make max/min characters, at the same time you never said they would not be able to learn skill because of it. Infact you said nothing about the consequences. Perhaps if you so much as implied your character would not learn skill at all, people would have heeded your words? Instead it seemed the attributes would only mean your character wouldn't learn magic and would be very weak to resisting spells, so naturally, we (many people who wish to play characters that can handle massive demon attacks that many GMs like to spring on us) listened to you but figured we could live with mages overpowering our characters.
Not even I can predict the misteryous ways that the allmighty Nitram tends to walk, but I can tell something stupid when I see it.
I also do not feel the need to publish game mechanics, if someone of the Devs does he or she can.
But you have to live with the vague guides I am publishing from time to time, and I surely will never reveal the "Perfect Warrior Build" to the public (since it tends to change every 3 month).
Grew up boy.Garett Gwenour wrote:Now try another arguement, one less insulting to the PO and more like an adult. Thank you.
Well, I'm going to stay mostly out of this debate (or conversation, or whatever you want to call it.)
I will, however, mention that I think there *should* be *some* way to adjust your stats, even if it's only once. The reason I say this, is because *very* often, we'll have an idea in mind for the character, but once you start playing them, they turn out very differently from what you expected. And if your attributes are very wrong for the char you ended up with so different from your concept, you have to either remake and lose *everything* you've worked for, or try to limp along with a char that really doesn't work well. I've faced that a few times now.
My idea was to give you a single stat-change 'token' or whatever for each char, that doesn't become active for one month after char creation. Then you can adjust the stats once, in case you made a mistake or the char developed differently than you expected.
I will, however, mention that I think there *should* be *some* way to adjust your stats, even if it's only once. The reason I say this, is because *very* often, we'll have an idea in mind for the character, but once you start playing them, they turn out very differently from what you expected. And if your attributes are very wrong for the char you ended up with so different from your concept, you have to either remake and lose *everything* you've worked for, or try to limp along with a char that really doesn't work well. I've faced that a few times now.
My idea was to give you a single stat-change 'token' or whatever for each char, that doesn't become active for one month after char creation. Then you can adjust the stats once, in case you made a mistake or the char developed differently than you expected.
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Errian Abêth
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I don't think it's right. From the beginning or the early times of this game attributes were ment to be something static.I do not see a problem with this, but I would like to see what the community thinks on this issue.
You lose skill and items when you die, you don't lose attributes.
You can gain skill and items, you can not gain attributes.
Biggest problem with your solution for the issue with the intelligence (though it is only a bug as Nitram said) is that it will unbalance the game.
If something in the attributes system is changed by the Dev's, people will just have to accept it. If now 30% of the player remake their characters and 70% do not, the 70% will have disadvantages.
Furthermore I really see no problem in finding an answer for the whole question, since both, item recovering and character-remaking are forbidden by the rules...
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Keikan Hiru
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Since NirAntae's point is much more intressting to discuss I'll switch over:
Something like this is indeed very handy, and I know plenty games that allow you re-distribute certain points at a later time of the game.
On the other hand I do not see something like this is practical for Illarion.
As I already hinted, things here are in constant flow and often change.
Once you used up your 're-adjust-token' we are at the same point as before.
Either live with a "crippled" character or delete him/her.
Something like this is indeed very handy, and I know plenty games that allow you re-distribute certain points at a later time of the game.
On the other hand I do not see something like this is practical for Illarion.
As I already hinted, things here are in constant flow and often change.
Once you used up your 're-adjust-token' we are at the same point as before.
Either live with a "crippled" character or delete him/her.
I was more referring to RP reasons than technical reasons.
For example, I made a char not too long ago that I originally meant as a jack-of-all-trades with a flair for magic. But, as I played her, she became completely single minded.. even obsessed.. with learning magic. So, I ended up remaking her. Luckily, she didn't really have anything, so I didn't face this moral dilemma, but it was still a hard decision to make.
This more technical-sided complaint just 'opened the door' to stick in my idea.
For example, I made a char not too long ago that I originally meant as a jack-of-all-trades with a flair for magic. But, as I played her, she became completely single minded.. even obsessed.. with learning magic. So, I ended up remaking her. Luckily, she didn't really have anything, so I didn't face this moral dilemma, but it was still a hard decision to make.
This more technical-sided complaint just 'opened the door' to stick in my idea.
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Estralis Seborian
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IMHO variable attributes violate one of the main gameplay principles of Illarion. Most games I know use static attributes and variable skills, those games (P&P mostly) with variable attributes tend to be unstable in terms of game balance (Shadowrun 2nd edition, anyone?!).
I think the real problem here is that a) Illarion is quite stat-sensitive b) does not provide any informations about the real use of stats c) changes every day.
While c) is fine and good (even though not every change done in the past was a good idea...), a) and b) are not. Even though balanced chars tend to promise the highest long term "use" for a player, maxed chars still are favourable when it comes to certain crafts / actions. We all know that dexterity affects crafting alot while most other attributes have no use at all when it comes to crafting. Thus, every crafter should max DEX. I am not so familiar with magic and fighting, but I guess a mage with INT 13 would suck like hell, right? Somewhere in the depths of the proposal board I suggested that every action should depend on three attributes with one of them having the biggest influence while the other two have a minor influence. Refer to the bard concept (those who can access it).
Anyway, recreating a char to distribute different stats is something I'd frown upon. I also had this problem once - I wanted to play a mage (oooold system), but back then, a mage couldn't use certain spells when having <16 intelligence (a not documented limit). Thus, I created a new char, different name, different background, different RP and I had lots of fun. One difference: Back then, one was able to learn basic magic in some days to weeks, now it takes ages.
I think the real problem here is that a) Illarion is quite stat-sensitive b) does not provide any informations about the real use of stats c) changes every day.
While c) is fine and good (even though not every change done in the past was a good idea...), a) and b) are not. Even though balanced chars tend to promise the highest long term "use" for a player, maxed chars still are favourable when it comes to certain crafts / actions. We all know that dexterity affects crafting alot while most other attributes have no use at all when it comes to crafting. Thus, every crafter should max DEX. I am not so familiar with magic and fighting, but I guess a mage with INT 13 would suck like hell, right? Somewhere in the depths of the proposal board I suggested that every action should depend on three attributes with one of them having the biggest influence while the other two have a minor influence. Refer to the bard concept (those who can access it).
Anyway, recreating a char to distribute different stats is something I'd frown upon. I also had this problem once - I wanted to play a mage (oooold system), but back then, a mage couldn't use certain spells when having <16 intelligence (a not documented limit). Thus, I created a new char, different name, different background, different RP and I had lots of fun. One difference: Back then, one was able to learn basic magic in some days to weeks, now it takes ages.
I am against character remakes, even if there may be a RP background for different abilities of a character (maybe desease).
Sure, it's a problem that the skill-system is changing a lot recently (Day 1: Yeah, my fighter is god! Day 2: Shite, I get pnwned by n00bs?! Day 3: Ha, no one can hit me now
) and some important things are not well known (attribute barriers).
It would be better if changes/new balances in the skill/attribute system do not make characters significantly better or worse than in an old system.
Sure, it's a problem that the skill-system is changing a lot recently (Day 1: Yeah, my fighter is god! Day 2: Shite, I get pnwned by n00bs?! Day 3: Ha, no one can hit me now
) and some important things are not well known (attribute barriers).It would be better if changes/new balances in the skill/attribute system do not make characters significantly better or worse than in an old system.
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Cassandra Fjurin
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Cass, give Liles 18 of everything. KKTHXBI
EDIT: Oh I should add something, well, okay.
I don't really care if you can change your stats to be honest but I don't think it should come just with a GM switching some numbers. Mayhaps NPC's that will teach you a stat point for a rather large amount of money?
EDIT: Oh I should add something, well, okay.
I don't really care if you can change your stats to be honest but I don't think it should come just with a GM switching some numbers. Mayhaps NPC's that will teach you a stat point for a rather large amount of money?
You have just opened the floodgates of hell. Every man and his dog will be asking for tweaking to their stats.Cassandra Fjurin wrote:my two cents....
i have no problem with remaking chars but currently i see no point why going this complicated way?
If you want to change some stats ask me.... i have no problem doing that. Say which char, which account and which stats.
I have had my experiences with poorly created characters and understand the frustration that can come of it. For example my character Balamos. Who has too much essence to be a good fighter, but too little intelligence to be the paladin he was originally meant to be. Ive had some good fun with this character in the past, but now the technical problems associated with him have completely destroyed my experience with him and I cannot do anything with him that fits his role. His fighting skills are beginning to yellow now and he can't do jack shit for the aforementioned reason.
Its for this reason I think there SHOULD be a method of changing, or at least tweaking stats implemented. Cassandra's offer is very generous and I may consider contacting him, but I think in the long term there should be an ingame method for varying attributes. Which adds to one set while taking away from another. This could take form of dynamic attributes which over time adjust according to what you do more often.
E.g. A character that fights in light armour will see an increase in his agility while his intelligence, which is not being used will deteriorate. This would create a much more fluid process of character development.
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Keikan Hiru
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You would end up with just another min/max character that is useless in everything but fighting.Nalzaxx wrote:E.g. A character that fights in light armour will see an increase in his agility while his intelligence, which is not being used will deteriorate. This would create a much more fluid process of character development.
Dynamic attributes are a pain to balance, and you all know that we already have enough pressing balancing issues.
Not really.... Salathe might be the most succesful crafter, even though he only has 10 dex.Estralis Seborian wrote: Even though balanced chars tend to promise the highest long term "use" for a player, maxed chars still are favourable when it comes to certain crafts / actions. We all know that dexterity affects crafting alot while most other attributes have no use at all when it comes to crafting. Thus, every crafter should max DEX.
I do not think we should be penalised for re-creating characters; some tymes, it just HAS to be done, and anyway; it would be highlt against RP if a character changed sooo drastically.
Of course, you'll need to fynd a RP reason to give the items.
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OK immagine stephen magically forgetting how to fight (lost skill), its bad enough for him, without also losing all his money and items, what happened to them? buuuq.. who knows?
Also, everyone keeps on going on about Illarion being a RP game. Eliron, I used to love playing, but i stopped using him simply because his stats were rubbish... I didn't bother reacreating him, and so i lost any RP i would have enjoyed...
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Now, my personal ideas are
1) Stats should be changed, once you got tied to a character, you wouldn't want to stop using him cos his stats stink big tyme... maybe you have a different idea, or maybe he's somethign important.
2) If you can fynd a good RP reason to give an item to someone , and ask for it back.. you should have it...
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My 2c
Of course, you'll need to fynd a RP reason to give the items.
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OK immagine stephen magically forgetting how to fight (lost skill), its bad enough for him, without also losing all his money and items, what happened to them? buuuq.. who knows?
Also, everyone keeps on going on about Illarion being a RP game. Eliron, I used to love playing, but i stopped using him simply because his stats were rubbish... I didn't bother reacreating him, and so i lost any RP i would have enjoyed...
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Now, my personal ideas are
1) Stats should be changed, once you got tied to a character, you wouldn't want to stop using him cos his stats stink big tyme... maybe you have a different idea, or maybe he's somethign important.
2) If you can fynd a good RP reason to give an item to someone , and ask for it back.. you should have it...
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My 2c
i don't think i can ever agree with this statement. if this were true then systems wouldn't be designed to cater to max stat characters. while i don't think changing stats is exactly the right way to go, the reason for the popularity of any min/max character is because every used system tells us that if we don't max, we lose, end of story.Keikan Hiru wrote:Cheater.
Its that simple.
How often did we tell you that you should not create min/max characters?
How often did we tell you that this will surely give you disadvantages now and in the future?
recently changes in the system have made this fact even more apparent, the magic system is always the prime example. you can't learn at a decent pace or teach without having said numbers in stats. same with the fighting system, don't bother swinging a sword if you don't have at least this much in this area.
with systems rapidly changing and always becoming more difficult for even the mid ranged characters, it's a wonder more people dont want to change there stats. it's hard to keep up with the constant changes when your characters stats are permenantly set. in the end it starts to become less fault by choice, and more fault of changing system. in that sense stats should be somewhat changable i'd think, because as players we never know when the number of a stats needed or a stats use itself will change.
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Keikan Hiru
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Makes my statement not the slightest bit invalid.
I spoke of the advises we gave you, not the system itself.
I spoke of the warnings we gave you, not how the system will look like.
Please point where I denied that the system rewards having good stats for a task.
Only thing I said, is that not having good stats for a task will surely not be rewarded, same as everywhere else.
I spoke of the advises we gave you, not the system itself.
I spoke of the warnings we gave you, not how the system will look like.
Please point where I denied that the system rewards having good stats for a task.
Only thing I said, is that not having good stats for a task will surely not be rewarded, same as everywhere else.