A line in the Sand

[Jon Childs]

What you just said was BS. Taylor cntrl clicked Stephen in a fight, Same with Athian, same with Revlen, same with Kamik. So what you just said is idiotic. You never lose in an RP fight no matter if your character is weaker than the other. THAT is why i do not rp fight with you.

I have never RP fought you, infact, I think I have only Rp fought with punch ups....And No, i do let the other person win if he is much stronger....Because I think loosing skill is an unfair result of dieing...

[Kevin Lightdot]

I've had some rp fighs, I find them to be much more enjoyable even if I don't win.

[Korwin]

When did using the fighting system become some sort of mortal sin?

[Arameh]

I like a mix of both. In long fights I usually makes lots of #me's and such.

But oh well..back on subject now?

[Dyluck]

When did using the fighting system become some sort of mortal sin?

It was around the same time when human nature and heroism did. It was the period a while after fighting between guards and criminals began to require using more elaboration for describing "captures" in order to give criminals a chance against overreaching jailing powers. Since guards and criminals were some of the most central characters/players around during that time, almost all discussions about RP revolved around fight issues between guard and criminals. Thus, the fruit of their discussions became like commandments to the masses, who began to emulate them and use more and more #me in battles until eventually it all but supposedly replaced the fighting system itself.

On a related note, the emergence of elaborated capturings between guards and criminals of course required some degree of "fair play" and "objectivity" on the part of the players to make it work. Thus began the fad of disassociating yourself from your character as a sort of subtle way of proving your "objectivity" to others and willingness to let your own character "lose". This "seperation mentality" and "Pure RP Fights" eventually became synonomous with "Good RP" and all that is holy, like all the signs of the times always do. Meanwhile, everything else that showed the slightest sign of natural human self-interest, such as heroism and character-centered stories/events, were deemed the bastard child of Satan, as perhaps demonstrated by some of the recent supposed critics of Jen.

Thanks for asking, Korwin. That was a very interesting question.
Of course, there are more sides to the story than that, but that'll be another story for another day.

[NirAntae]

Is it just me....

or was this kind of 'he did this'... 'but HE did THIS!' *EXACTLY* the smileing kinda of BS that this thread was talking about in the first place?!?

[Mah'dee Daye]

I'm a noob, and I would have to say there is a light side to things. I don't feel like I have been pushed away or shunned. On the contrary I feel as though several of the players here have been very kind in welcoming and helping me.

There may have been a time or two where someone got snippy, but these times were rare and I hardly remember the specifics.

Elitist? Perhaps I am naive or blind, but I have not experienced this yet in my travels on Illarion. All the signatures on this forum go to show that there are many players willing to help and that if there is an elitist group it is quite small.

However, all this arguing kind of turns me off. I mean WOW these two recent forums have had more replies then the one actual RP post that I did (which I spent a great deal of my time and creative energy on).

This is a game designed to allow players to escape from their day to day struggles into a fantasy world where they can live out their dreams and fulfill thier inspirations. A wonderful concept, and wonderfully designed I might add. So lets stick to the idea.

As far as newbies go there is a solution I might suggest. Perhaps there can be a group of people given a position on the game as helpers for newcomers. These helpers would be able to see new players that come on the game and they would be able to recieve any questions for help through a private message system that only they can see. That way people's roleplay is not disturbed by newbies in need of assistance.

And if there is an elitist squad of veterans they will, by excluding others, eventually seclude themselves until they are the odd ones out.

And to the many players who have been very kind (you know who you are) thank you for making this a mostly enjoyable experience.

*big smile*

[Kevin Lightdot]

Many of those 'elitists' dont seem to visit the forums alot. (Or maybe its just me...)

And Mah'dee Daye, you're the most daring noob around. Congrats, alot of people dont even dare to post there oppinion since some other will always flame them.

[Mah'dee Daye]

Yes, sharing my opinion is somewhat daring, but I do it for the good of the masses! *takes a bow*

Also, I now believe in the warmongering elitist veteran squad as I just recieved this transmission:

*static and audio wavers in an out*

"I am the great elitist squad! All your fun are belong to me! I will seclude you on seperate peaks of the copper mountains, then you will see my uber pwnage far superior to your menial intellect! Resistance is futile!!!1shift+click112"

Yes, apparantly they are also trekkies, who would have thought?

[Findecano]

"I am the great elitist squad! All your fun are belong to me! I will seclude you on seperate peaks of the copper mountains, then you will see my uber pwnage far superior to your menial intellect! Resistance is futile!!!1shift+click112"

Yes, apparantly they are also trekkies, who would have thought?

I cannot compute.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Yes, sharing my opinion is somewhat daring, but I do it for the good of the masses! *takes a bow*

Also, I now believe in the warmongering elitist veteran squad as I just recieved this transmission:

*static and audio wavers in an out*

"I am the great elitist squad! All your fun are belong to me! I will seclude you on seperate peaks of the copper mountains, then you will see my uber pwnage far superior to your menial intellect! Resistance is futile!!!1shift+click112"

Yes, apparantly they are also trekkies, who would have thought?

So true...

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

Thats frightening

[Dyluck]

Maybe these supposed elitists are a mostly phantom problem that is already outdated and overkilled. Illarion has a tendency to do that, like how it did to powergaming, I think.

Of course, each person has their own standard of how to and how not to react to a newbie. Each person thinks that everyone else is talking about the same standard as their own, so they think they are all in agreement about a problem that may or may not exist, or may not exist on the same level or by their own standard, at the very least. It's very easy to just simply say that everyone else who goes past my own standard/limit has gone too far. Perhaps some people don't even realize someone else is taking about themselves. Or perhaps as Pronon somewhat said, what else can you do but agree with such a righteous sounding thread, lest you risk being ironically shunned?

The idea here is noble, but problems rarely ever end by forcing the other side to take your perspective. Isn't that supposed to be the idea? Doesn't it seem rather ironic to wage a war to spread pacifism? Would a supposed elitist really feel convinced to change after reading this thread, or just feel attacked and shunned? Perhaps it's time to start trying to understand the underlying reasons why other people carry the perspective that they do, rather than jumping to the convenient conclusion that others are simply assholes.

[Poots]

that's what made me so mad in runescape. I walked up to a group of people, asked a question and the only answer I got was "shut up noob!"

but when I was a noob (and I still am pretty noobish) the most helpful thing, was that person (in this case Pendar..or liles, I forget) who took ten minutes to explain a few things out of town, and got me started on a skill or something. but since your really can't force that, heres my non detailed plan:

some kind of tutorial on that island that you start on....that's all I can think of.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Yeah, I hate runescape for that to.

And yeah, Liles realy helped me out at start to.

[Arameh]

Yeah, I hate runescape for that to.

And yeah, Liles realy helped me out at start to.

lool, not me .

But I find it funny now so I dont really care.

[Bloodhearte]

So in short, we're all elitist rp'ing powergamers but people don't know specific names. Like a witch hunt. That, and be nicer to the n00bs.

[Misjbar]

It does not help if all talk about the "evil" Elitists who oh-so-spoil all the fun, but nobody actually sees him/herself as one of those...

I can honestly say I have elitist attitude at some times. I am working on it.

[Mah'dee Daye]

Yay! Go Misjbar!

[AlexRose]

Yeah, I hate runescape for that to.

And yeah, Liles realy helped me out at start to.

Kevin taught be the basics, then Liles and a group chased Will out of town on my first day, I ended up in Varshikar, got fined 200 copper (Which was never paid ) Anyway, then Liles took him pig hunting then later he went mummy hunting with Marie, Liles and Kevin and met Selis! This is probably why I was instantly addicted. Good times.

[Jalen Noel]

Speaking from my own noobishness, I feel like there's a slight thread of hypocracy in place. Far too often, people stand in a pedestal and pronounce, "Roleplay! That's what this game is for!" Granted, you don't want for new players to wander down the ugly road of powergaming, so it's good to emphasize early on that the focus of this game is roleplaying. However, as a new player, it's not easy to get involved in the roleplaying aspect of this game when so many players are exclusive in their associations and basically dismiss a newcomer until he or she has something to offer.

I think it's unfair to call down someone who spends their early days in Illarion focused on skill-gaining. How different is that from the real world? When you move into a new area, all you really have is your work. The social aspect of things comes with time. More often than not, it is is the secular niche you carve for yourself that leads to your involvement in the social scene.

Also, since it sort of echoes some of the sentiments made in another part of this post...

I've felt at times that my character is fairly disliked in the Illarion community. I just wanted to clear the air a little and make it clear that nothing I say or do in-game should be taken as a reflection of me, the handler. I know I made several people mad one day when I made a racial comment about non-humans. I also know that some don't like how I handle my newfound duties as a town guard. Let me make something clear, in the hopes that you'll take these things the right way.

With Jalen, I've tried to create a character with all of the ambition of youth and a susceptibility for being influenced. I know that he's not the most likeable character, and that was really part of the idea. I wanted for there to be a maturation to Jalen over time that would be apparent in-game. For that to occur, obviously, he'd have to rub some folks the wrong way so that they'd notice the change later on. I truly hope that nobody has taken genuine offense to anything I've said or done in the game, as such was never my intention. I am a huge fan of this game and of the great care and effort most of you put into your roleplaying. If you've been turned off by Jalen, please don't dismiss him entirely. There's still good in him!

[Kevin Lightdot]

PO Jalen has a point... A good one.
And as I stated before, and will keep saying. Everyone can learn given help from others.

Hurray for him! And hurray for him daring to post it in risk of getting disaproved and branded a 'bad roleplayer' to some for no obvious reason.

Alot of things that are wrong just arn't said because the supposubly 'good' roleplayers dont like to hear it. And if you get on uneven turns with them they can mess up the game for you.


His second statement is also verry right, and sadly some people still do not listen to it. A char has absolutely nothing to do with its PO. The char can act a bit like the PO, sure. But noone should ever think like this "He isn't nice to me, his char can't be nice to me either. Or the other way around."

And if anyone decides to flame me over this, dont expect a reply.

[NirAntae]

Thanks to Jalen, a *very* excellent point has been brought up... thank you, Jalen.

The PO and the Char are *not one and the same*.

I know that some things Maggie has done recently has made a number of people mad at *ME*. This hurts me rather badly; I am not Maggie. Yes, she reflects many aspects of my personality - she is closer to how I am than most of my chars, which is why I play her the most - she takes less 'effort'. But *NOT ALL*. She isn't just an in-game incarnation of how I would act. Nor would all of my characters act like she does in a given situation. And a lot of how she acts has been determined by her *in game* past.

But this is an important point to keep in mind. The player is not the character, and vice-versa. If a player annoys you, don't discount the character; and if a character annoys you, don't discount the player... or that player's other characters.

[AlexRose]

I'm basically a more hyper Will though. And less evil.

[nmaguire]

that's what made me so mad in runescape. I walked up to a group of people, asked a question and the only answer I got was "shut up noob!"

but when I was a noob (and I still am pretty noobish) the most helpful thing, was that person (in this case Pendar..or liles, I forget) who took ten minutes to explain a few things out of town, and got me started on a skill or something. but since your really can't force that, heres my non detailed plan:

some kind of tutorial on that island that you start on....that's all I can think of.

I am quite clearly a noob (planning to join IG as A.S.A.P) , but i have this to say on the subject of a tutorial island.

A lot of the time, a tutorial island can actually deter people from joining a game. E.g. on runescape, the tutorial takes a good hour or so to do properly, and it doesn't help very much. The supplies last at best the first day, of playing. and after that you are on your own, with no idea of the concept of good money-making, and no understanding of the wilderness. Of course, none of these really apply to a more exciting and interesting game such as Illarion. My point is that a) The tutorial island (if it was made) should not give an immediate advantage to newbies such as me, but ont the contrary it should give an idea of most of the game's concept's in moderate detail. So, in other words a tutorial island would have to be very carefully designed.

[swish1]

I agree 100% with Stephen. Just take Jon Childs for ex. someone posted him a site that says. "everyone hates you" your lame" "your shoe size and iq match"and more.. Do you honestly believe Jon is happy now? and take the post in off-topic if you were to take one vacation what would it be? You practically bashed each other. And you know my first char they critized me very badly. But they have to remember the first time they runned the game. and other time a newbee was trying to figure out stuff. and a person goes. "noob from hell please go" I mean that person must have felt bad. You may ask why not more than 20-25 people log on. if we keep making fun of new bees and make fun of them and dont teach them you think they will keep playing. We are chasing away the people that want to play!

So can we all mbe a little nicer like Stephen said?

[Mah'dee Daye]

Wow! I am really sorry to hear that that happened to you, Swish. That type of harrasment should never exist in a game, whether you are a newbie or a pro.

I am glad that you have stuck around and are beginning to create a presence here in Illarion. That's what it's all about.

[Nalzaxx]

Yeah Kudos to swish. Just cause some assholes around here get kicks out of bullying him don't mean he should leave.

[Moirear Sian]

I think elitism is good.

Now before you all rip my heads off, here's why:
Elitism itself isn't bad in its core, but it holds a powerful dichotomy which lets it lead to good or bad, depending on whatever people do with it.

Elitism can mean as much as that old-timers get a special treatment. Which is something that some people in this thread have said (if I twist their words around enough), and others agreed to it. In short, it means that the oldbie gets the cookies. The newbies gotta sweat for it first, but ideally, with the aid of the oldbies, they can join in the fun too.
(Basically, most games give you this experience. You're new, you try harder, you practice, you improve and advance -- rinse repeat. The idea is that you try to deliver a sense of achievement following this simple formula.)

Nothing bad about that concept, is there?

Now, the problem is when there's elitism, and the elitists get so self-assured about themselves, up to the point where their ego grows sky-high and reality is centered on them, and them alone. I remember reading a post about "being interrupted in RP in the tavern", which I think is a load of bull. Interrupted in a multiplayer game? Tough. Deal with it.

It's an issue when they start acting like they're something better, and that the game revolves around them and their personal pleasure. I mean to say, there's nothing wrong with getting your fun out of playing a game, but there's a reason why PKs and griefers are rather unpopular on pretty much any MMORPG - you ruin someone else's game for your own pleasure, you're ruining the game. When the self-centered elitists start putting down the new players, and even deriving them of a chance to get into something new, no shit Sherlocks, they're effectively driving them away! Congratulations.

My suggestions:

• a) Be more open to new and old players, because if you inbreed the "it's always been done this way so we gotta keep doing it this way", dogmatic "this is how it done"-virus, nobody will ever bring in anything new nor will you ever meet surprises.
  b) Don't ever think you know it all and better. Nobody does.
  c) Be more patient with new players, you used to be one too.

The self-centered, self-righteous elitists simply need to realize that with the cookies they've earned, they've also earned the responsibility of continuing the baker's job.

With the privileges also come the responsibilities.

Eric.

[swish1]

Thanks.
So whoever created a site for John about him being lame an' all can you delete that post and perhaps apologize?