Intelligence
Moderator: Gamemasters
Intelligence
I REALLY REALLY THINK THERE SHOULD BE A WAY TO INCREASE INTELLIGENCE AND OTHER STATS LIKE THAT. IT WOULD BE MORE REALISTIC BECAUSE IN REAL LIFE SOMEONE THAT WANTS TO BE SMARTER COULD EASILY BECOME SMARTER BY SAY STUDYING.
In a short summary, Bror's definition of intellegence is something that you're born with and can never be changed much through studying which only gives you more knowledge and mechanical functional ability. Of course you probably didn't know this when you made you character, but Bror expects you to, and he's the boss. So too bad.
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Loki Feuerhaar
- Posts: 353
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:20 pm
- Location: Trolls Bane
The intelligence in Illarion is not based on knowledge, it is more like 'logic' if you will. And proposals like this have come around in the past, but let's just say you could change abilities, think of powergamers now and pkers, and now think of them with maximum abilities: the untouchable, indestructable, super mage, warrior. Not a pretty sight for town, huh?
Intelligence in Illarion is about the same as IQ is in our world.
Your IQ basically never changes throughout your life but by a few points, as it is not how much you know, but how much you are capable of learning.
Which is how it works in Illarion. You can learn many things, but there are just somethings you just will never be able to know. You're just not smart enough. But, you can learn many other things.
Your IQ basically never changes throughout your life but by a few points, as it is not how much you know, but how much you are capable of learning.
Which is how it works in Illarion. You can learn many things, but there are just somethings you just will never be able to know. You're just not smart enough. But, you can learn many other things.
I'll challenge this statement now with a question since it seems no one ever asked it when the new intellegence system was first implemented. So then according to that statement, are you saying that a person's IQ can be roughly determined at birth? That the IQ of a group of babies (with no major deficencies), could be ranked and predetermined?Serpardum wrote:Intelligence in Illarion is about the same as IQ is in our world.
Your IQ basically never changes throughout your life but by a few points, as it is not how much you know, but how much you are capable of learning.
And about in relation to not being able to increase intellegence in real life (if it were really so), it's not highly unplausible that this doesn't neccesarily apply to a medieval fantasy scenario where there may some magical way to make someone smarter.
To a degree you could predetermine how to a degree how intelligent they would be based on their genetics (if we knew enough to do that). I agree that to some extent, we can't really make ourselves more intellegent, when you take intellegence as the speed and depth of our thoughts there are people who are just born able to do things quicker, and in more detail then others. To a certain degree however, intellegence can be altered, not to a major degree, but there are excercises towards making your mind work quicker, and think around subjects more, although you might never reach the level of the "smarter-than-you-from-birth" kids, you might get close.That the IQ of a group of babies (with no major deficencies), could be ranked and predetermined?
Taking all this into account, I think intellegence limiting what spells you can cast doesn't really make sense. I think that intellegence should certainly effect the degree of skill you have at casting them (You'd fail a lot more with lower intellegence, because with slight changes in atmosphere and other things, less intellegent people wouldn't be able to make subtle alterations to their spells to enable them to work properly). I would think that in general, knowledge is the main requirement for casting spells though, knowing of the process and how to do it.
I disagree to the extent that I think everybody can know anything, it will just take them a lot longer to learn it (,Multiple tries reading a rune book for low intellegence people before they learn the rune? and/or Slower progression of their skill in it).There are just somethings you just will never be able to know. You're just not smart enough
To sum up: Dyluck is right, intellegence potion here I come! Although if one is implemented (which I think it should be) there should be some very rare or very hard to get requirements (I lean towards rare and hard, because one makes it possible for really strong people to get it too easily, and the other towards people at random getting it, to the point that new people might get it and not understand what it's worth, or other situations like that.) Also, let's not forget if one ever does exist it can only give a very minor boost, to the extent that some people will question if it's worth all the hassle of getting it.
Lets compare magic items with, oh, lets say quantum physics.
By the statements you give, everyone is able to learn quantum physics and understand it fully, as long as they are given enough time. Unfortunately, that's not quite true. Some, no matter how hard they try, will never understand it. But, they may be able to understand engineering where other people can't.
By the statements you give, everyone is able to learn quantum physics and understand it fully, as long as they are given enough time. Unfortunately, that's not quite true. Some, no matter how hard they try, will never understand it. But, they may be able to understand engineering where other people can't.
Well, not quite your occupation, but what you can do, yes.
To be honest some very intelligent people are miserable and some quite average people are estatic.
Usually people who are very intelligent are a bit unstable. A lot of the loony bins are filled with geniuses.
Anyway, this discussion is pretty much getting nowhere.
I doubt it highly that your basic stats can be raised without an extremly rare reason.
To be honest some very intelligent people are miserable and some quite average people are estatic.
Usually people who are very intelligent are a bit unstable. A lot of the loony bins are filled with geniuses.
Anyway, this discussion is pretty much getting nowhere.
I doubt it highly that your basic stats can be raised without an extremly rare reason.
What proof do you have to back up the statement that no matter how hard they try some people (normal that is) will never understand it? I"m sure over 90% of the world's population do not understand quantum physics, but you'll never be able to prove that some of them couldn't learn it if they actually cared or had the other requirements to do it. There are other factors to understanding something besides "how hard you try" or "intellegence". I believe every normal person with no significant brain deficiency can understand quantum physics within a reasonable time frame of their lifetime. What prevents them from doing so are social environmental and pyschological factors such as motivation, drive, effort, interest, and background, instead of "intellegence". Surely if you present only quantum physics to someone they will never understand it even if they look at it for a lifetime, but if they take the time with the neccesary steps to understand the neccesary concepts before taking the leap to quantum physics, then any normal human being should be able to do it. Just like any normal human can take the square of 5, but not without first learning multitplication, and learn to count before that, and etc.Serpardum wrote:By the statements you give, everyone is able to learn quantum physics and understand it fully, as long as they are given enough time. Unfortunately, that's not quite true. Some, no matter how hard they try, will never understand it. But, they may be able to understand engineering where other people can't.
sorry, but that is all pretty pointless.
as for the quantum-physiks-example:
maybe even a dumb person might understand a bit of it, given time, but as is reality he never will, since noone bothers learning something, where he progresses terribly slowly.
the main reason for this rule is, to prevent "i trained all to the max and i am SOO powerfull" people, cause if you could change it quite a lot of people would staret maxing their attributes. and if we would decrease their strengh and agility while raising their intelligence i can hear all the complaints too: "why do i get weaker when i read a book, thats unrealistic..." etc.
also the need to "read a book twice" leads you nowhere, since that is'nt realy an obstacle.
so we have to set up a fixed set of rules. if you think about it, you might deduce that a magician might need intelligence instead of strengh, etc.
i wonder what people will say or complain, if the vocation-system is introduced? "why cant i use a bihaender any longer when i am a mage or why cant i wear a metal armor" etc.
as for the quantum-physiks-example:
maybe even a dumb person might understand a bit of it, given time, but as is reality he never will, since noone bothers learning something, where he progresses terribly slowly.
the main reason for this rule is, to prevent "i trained all to the max and i am SOO powerfull" people, cause if you could change it quite a lot of people would staret maxing their attributes. and if we would decrease their strengh and agility while raising their intelligence i can hear all the complaints too: "why do i get weaker when i read a book, thats unrealistic..." etc.
also the need to "read a book twice" leads you nowhere, since that is'nt realy an obstacle.
so we have to set up a fixed set of rules. if you think about it, you might deduce that a magician might need intelligence instead of strengh, etc.
i wonder what people will say or complain, if the vocation-system is introduced? "why cant i use a bihaender any longer when i am a mage or why cant i wear a metal armor" etc.
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Caranthir the great
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:06 pm
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I hate to bring you all down, but I my point of view the whole magic system needs a complete body-workout.
It should take immense amount of time to reach the level of wizardy that the vast majority of people are currently.
If being even a lousy mage would require weeks, there wouldn't be nearly as much mages as there are now and this is how it SHOULD be (I think so), now when you'll ask people who walk by you, at least 3/4 say "I am mage."
It's too easy.
There is no exoticy in being/seeing a mage since everybody else is one.
Also, the rune-books are way too easy to get, there is no challenge in finding them..
Instead of having each and every goddamn rune being sold by the merchant, they could be rarely dropped by monsters or found ocasionally from distant places or be quest rewards ect.
IF runes such as Hept, Qwan and Sij could be obtained only by this way, not everyone would be able to burn the town down every time when slightly bored.
Now, you get all the runes in what, day? two days?
Yes, I am a mage too, but I am not able to use my "skill" anymore, not that I would even want to.
Enough dwarven magicians already.
Every peasant is able to throw in fireballs, surely it might be entertaing for a while, but in the end it is getting nerving.
It should take immense amount of time to reach the level of wizardy that the vast majority of people are currently.
If being even a lousy mage would require weeks, there wouldn't be nearly as much mages as there are now and this is how it SHOULD be (I think so), now when you'll ask people who walk by you, at least 3/4 say "I am mage."
It's too easy.
There is no exoticy in being/seeing a mage since everybody else is one.
Also, the rune-books are way too easy to get, there is no challenge in finding them..
Instead of having each and every goddamn rune being sold by the merchant, they could be rarely dropped by monsters or found ocasionally from distant places or be quest rewards ect.
IF runes such as Hept, Qwan and Sij could be obtained only by this way, not everyone would be able to burn the town down every time when slightly bored.
Now, you get all the runes in what, day? two days?
Yes, I am a mage too, but I am not able to use my "skill" anymore, not that I would even want to.
Enough dwarven magicians already.
Every peasant is able to throw in fireballs, surely it might be entertaing for a while, but in the end it is getting nerving.
Well, I just spent a good deal amount of time writing up a long summation of why the which-spell-you-can-cast-depends-on-intellegence-system was implemented over half a year ago, and my arguments opposing it including the abstractness of the world intellegence and why it was very bad idea that did more harm than good resulting in Illarion being the way it is now without a sold core community of roleplayers, and how I don't have a suggestion to make it all better now somehow, but that sometimes I like to bitch about how the implementation of that system was a poor decision that they refuse to acknowledge still. But since by the time I finished and pressed preview, my logged in time had expired and when I logged by in, everything I typed was lost, I got f***in pissed off and decided to just post the links to old threads so people who came later could read about the controversy and debates, many of which I never got a good response against my most important arguements.
http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... 09&start=0
http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... 06&start=0
http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... 07&start=0
http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... 25&start=0
http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... 09&start=0
http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... 06&start=0
http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... 07&start=0
http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... 25&start=0
@Dyluck: If that happens again, after you log back in just use the BACK button on your browser until you find the page you were writing the message and all the text should still be there! Just click submit again and it will go though.
@Caranthir the great: Skill learning has been tweaked in the version of the server that is being tested that should solve your concerns.
@Caranthir the great: Skill learning has been tweaked in the version of the server that is being tested that should solve your concerns.
Well, lot's of people have said lots of things to compare Illarion intelligence to, so I will put it here quite simply for those players who still dont understand.
Intelligence in Illarion can not be changed, it is something that will always stay the same.
I know you like to compare Illarion to RL to make it more realistic, but it's a FANTASY game, how often do you see Halflings, Elves and Orcs (etc) in real life? I can safely say, not often, so I think it could be time for this post to be locked (ie, unable to reply to) as it seems to have generated more nonsense than sense.
Intelligence in Illarion can not be changed, it is something that will always stay the same.
I know you like to compare Illarion to RL to make it more realistic, but it's a FANTASY game, how often do you see Halflings, Elves and Orcs (etc) in real life? I can safely say, not often, so I think it could be time for this post to be locked (ie, unable to reply to) as it seems to have generated more nonsense than sense.
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Sir Turquine
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 6:59 pm
- Location: USA
@Caranthir
I played AD&D with a DM one time who had a very interesting rule. I hated the magic system AD&D had (having to memorize spells and stuff) and so did he. His rule was that no one can write down magic spells. That way, you couldn't make copies of a spell and give it to your friend or apprentice. If you wanted someone else to have a spell you had to give them your copy (neither could you make backup copies for yourself.) This made collecting enemies spellbooks much more fun. He also changed up all the spells in the D&D spellbook so that none of the spells were quiet like those in the book. Nor were our (the players) spells like each others. Each was slightly different in either the amount of damage it did, or the way it appeared, or the components it required. Just made them a little more exciting and unique. I was wondering if this could be done with the runes. You don't "learn" runes, you have them. People could specialize and try to trade (or steal) for the ones the wanted (if they could find out who had them) in order to get the runes they wanted. I'm not sure about the idea of each rune being unique, but it would be fun. If not too many runes were let into the game, then magic would definitely be exotic and interesting.
Another way of making it exotic would be to have potential backlashes when a spell fails. Land a fire-field on them or make them go blind temporarily (darken the playing field). It would make expirementing much for dangerous and (possibly) get people to role-play with the older mages to get the info. Sort of a master/apprentice sort of thing. This idea might facilitate that.
Sir Turquine.
I played AD&D with a DM one time who had a very interesting rule. I hated the magic system AD&D had (having to memorize spells and stuff) and so did he. His rule was that no one can write down magic spells. That way, you couldn't make copies of a spell and give it to your friend or apprentice. If you wanted someone else to have a spell you had to give them your copy (neither could you make backup copies for yourself.) This made collecting enemies spellbooks much more fun. He also changed up all the spells in the D&D spellbook so that none of the spells were quiet like those in the book. Nor were our (the players) spells like each others. Each was slightly different in either the amount of damage it did, or the way it appeared, or the components it required. Just made them a little more exciting and unique. I was wondering if this could be done with the runes. You don't "learn" runes, you have them. People could specialize and try to trade (or steal) for the ones the wanted (if they could find out who had them) in order to get the runes they wanted. I'm not sure about the idea of each rune being unique, but it would be fun. If not too many runes were let into the game, then magic would definitely be exotic and interesting.
Another way of making it exotic would be to have potential backlashes when a spell fails. Land a fire-field on them or make them go blind temporarily (darken the playing field). It would make expirementing much for dangerous and (possibly) get people to role-play with the older mages to get the info. Sort of a master/apprentice sort of thing. This idea might facilitate that.
Sir Turquine.
Now I will add my oppinions about how the intelligence system currently works...
The main problem with it is that the real role-players who came before the current uses of Intelligence were implemented now are much worse at magic then the new people. Lets just say that for every 1 "good rol-player" there are 2 "bad role-players", this is hypothetical. The one "good role-player" uses the magic properly and does not overun the town however, the 2 "bad role-players" run around town casting the powerful spells they have because their intelligence is fairly high. The old "good-roleplayers" can do little to stop this person as he uses his powerful magic to "defend" himself as the others try to kill him or talk to him. The "good role-players" who are new with good spells try to help however, they are likely not as good at the magic as the bad ones because the "good" have conversations while the bad just practice their spells.
The idea behind the intelligence system, I admit was a good one however it is unfair as the old-players were unable to make it so they could live up to their titles or their livelyhood. However the solution to make it "fair" would probably take too much time for the people who would have to change all the stats so, the old players are stuck while the new players have the ability to run around town doing random things. So, from my point of view it is either we have the intelligence system where the idea is good but unfair to the "old" players or we dump it and end up like it was before however, there would be people who could stop those "bad role-players"
Thank you everyone, sorry for the longness of this.
The main problem with it is that the real role-players who came before the current uses of Intelligence were implemented now are much worse at magic then the new people. Lets just say that for every 1 "good rol-player" there are 2 "bad role-players", this is hypothetical. The one "good role-player" uses the magic properly and does not overun the town however, the 2 "bad role-players" run around town casting the powerful spells they have because their intelligence is fairly high. The old "good-roleplayers" can do little to stop this person as he uses his powerful magic to "defend" himself as the others try to kill him or talk to him. The "good role-players" who are new with good spells try to help however, they are likely not as good at the magic as the bad ones because the "good" have conversations while the bad just practice their spells.
The idea behind the intelligence system, I admit was a good one however it is unfair as the old-players were unable to make it so they could live up to their titles or their livelyhood. However the solution to make it "fair" would probably take too much time for the people who would have to change all the stats so, the old players are stuck while the new players have the ability to run around town doing random things. So, from my point of view it is either we have the intelligence system where the idea is good but unfair to the "old" players or we dump it and end up like it was before however, there would be people who could stop those "bad role-players"
Thank you everyone, sorry for the longness of this.
Back then I suggested only applying to system to new characters only so that future problems would be prevented and any actual existing problems would remain only within the small number of existing characters, which would eventually be tracked down and taken care of.
This idea was never really taken into consideration probably because those heavily involved in the influence of the decision were out of touch with the actual situation in the world of Illarion, so they typically insightfully only saw this idea as creating "player inequality" between old and new characters (even though it would be only a silght inequality), and failed to see that this minor problem is supposed to be subordinate to the greater benefits to roleplay that it brings by stablizing the roles and peace keeping capabilities of the existing background roleplaying community (someone else also suggsted this idea then and someone dismissed it, quoting it as "simply absurd", which was far from the truth).
This idea was never really taken into consideration probably because those heavily involved in the influence of the decision were out of touch with the actual situation in the world of Illarion, so they typically insightfully only saw this idea as creating "player inequality" between old and new characters (even though it would be only a silght inequality), and failed to see that this minor problem is supposed to be subordinate to the greater benefits to roleplay that it brings by stablizing the roles and peace keeping capabilities of the existing background roleplaying community (someone else also suggsted this idea then and someone dismissed it, quoting it as "simply absurd", which was far from the truth).