Magic Discussion

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:36 am

Well, in fact the mages were too strong from such a small amout of time and training. Magic should be something hard to learn, as it surely is now. Magic should be very hard to learn, but when you guys get a very high skill, im sure you will be very strong. But, i guess its balanced for now...

Jori · Post by **Jori** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:43 am

Yah mages should do a ton of damage if skills are very high just like fighters. Maybe some special staves that increase magical power too. Of course at lower skills fighters don't do as much damage so mages shouldn't either. Just as long as it's fairly balanced at all levels it should be good.

Taylor · Post by **Taylor** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:47 am

Shouldn't Fighting and Magic be the same difficulty to Level? Your making no sense and sounding, no offence, but quite like a hypocrite. Look, If you want Magic to be hard to learn, the fighting skills should be equally hard to learn. I'm not sure if you have even tried to swing a sword, But if you have, you'll learn quickly that it is no easy task. I've used a Bastard sword that was nearly my size, It was nearly impossible for me, Someone that has used swords about half his life in martial arts, to even swing, let alone control. All i'm saying is that if you want to have magic as a difficult subject to gain skill in, The opposing force must come to equal the change otherwise their will be an unbalance, and Mages will just fall off the map, While Fighters have full reign like before.

Gort Greegog · Post by **Gort Greegog** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:54 am

I belive they are the same to level.

Maybe those mages should make a smith and then complain? Thats a hard skill to gain.

And it seems to me Samantha is taking all this personaly? Hmm, anyways sorry Sam.

Jori · Post by **Jori** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:56 am

Or maybe if magic were much more difficult to learn, but in the end was more powerful and fighting was easier to learn but not as good in the end? This way there would be an easy path and a hard one. Of course magic would need to be enough harder that not everyone would go with magic instead of fighting. It also would need to not be to much more powerful at the end. Maybe like a ratio of 5 maxed out mages = 6 maxed out fighters? That would just be raw stats and power without human input of course.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:57 am

Taylor wrote:Shouldn't Fighting and Magic be the same difficulty to Level? Your making no sense and sounding, no offence, but quite like a hypocrite. Look, If you want Magic to be hard to learn, the fighting skills should be equally hard to learn. I'm not sure if you have even tried to swing a sword, But if you have, you'll learn quickly that it is no easy task. I've used a Bastard sword that was nearly my size, It was nearly impossible for me, Someone that has used swords about half his life in martial arts, to even swing, let alone control. All i'm saying is that if you want to have magic as a difficult subject to gain skill in, The opposing force must come to equal the change otherwise their will be an unbalance, and Mages will just fall off the map, While Fighters have full reign like before.

Currently, magic is harder to learn, but it also is more powerful for the same amount of skill, if you want to make fighting harder to learn, then the skill would have to be stronger as well.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:00 am

I woulnt be against fighting harder to learn but more powerful in the end. It is true that 2 fighters that trains 1 week can beat a fighter that has nearly maxed out skills.

Gort Greegog · Post by **Gort Greegog** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:02 am

The intire idea of things being harder to learn so they are stronger is obserd.

I thought the colour of the skill meant how good you are at it? So if your as good at me in a diffrent feild your better? makes lots of sense.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:24 am

There seem to be several critical oversights being made here.

Magic is not a skill solely for combat.
Magic allows a character to transport themselves over distances.
Magic allows a character to create food items.
Magic allows a character to erect a wall.
Magic allows a character to heal another character.
This is an abridged version of the list of magical abilities to be obtained, it is completely unfair to compare magic skills to fighting skills.

There's more to learning magic than there is to fighting, and I'm not refering to solely roleplay knowledge, or skill gain. To even attain the ability to use magic, a teacher must use a technical skill to transfer the rune. Furthmore, the teachers are not throwing lump runes out to the students.

For fighting to even approach the difficulty of learning magic, the GMS would need to select roughly 10 characters (Some of them very difficult to reach) who could allow people to use a skill. Without a direct application of the skill on your character, from this teacher, you would need to be completely incapable of even wielding a weapon. No knives, no fists, nothing.

I thought the colour of the skill meant how good you are at it? So if your as good at me in a diffrent feild your better? makes lots of sense.

Yes, you're right, it does make alot of sense. If Mia and John have the same skill level, except Mia uses an assault rifle, and John uses his fist, Mia is quite simply going to kick his ass. (Edit; I have to remove the blatant pun I initially overlooked.)

Finally, it's my impression that magic is supposed to be more powerful than fighting. It wouldn't surprise me if the developers, and even much of the player base, believes that in an ideal fantasy world, brain beats brawn. That's what it boils down to, if the GMs want to give a nod towards that principle by making magic more powerful, that's what they'll do. Additionally, if magic and fighting are supposed to be of equal strength, why would the developers and GMs waste a period of 72 days carefully releasing it, and have a continued hand in which characters use the skill? With a generous estimate, I would say there are 10 magical characters, only the characters they trust will ever be able to use magic.

Gort Greegog · Post by **Gort Greegog** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:45 am

If Mia and John have the same skill level, except Mia uses an assault rifle, and John uses his fist, Mia is quite simply going to kick his ass.

Damn you don't watch many fighting movies

But really...how much skill does an assult rifle take to use? Are Mia's reflexes that good? Can Jon sneak up on her? Where is the fight? How much amo does she have? Well maybe a rifle isent a good example...

And I meant like in another game...lets say I have a level 10 Zeal attack and my opponent has a level 10 fire ball. Both the same level and do the same damage. That makes sense. But if my zeal did 500-1000 damage and their fireball did 10-20 would this be fair? Or evan make the slightest sense? Nope it woulden't and it dosen't.

So if they have the same Magic skill's shade of blue as my concussion's. and we have a evan essance/health ratio to make that evan. Then logic says it should be extreamly close. But with the magic unfixed, I assure you that it made no sense my concussion skill would fall to a mages attack with such ease from a probobly lower skill. The color absorber said my skill was at 198 then...if the mages skill was higher I admit my stupidity......

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:49 am

Gort Greegog wrote:
If Mia and John have the same skill level, except Mia uses an assault rifle, and John uses his fist, Mia is quite simply going to kick his ass.
Damn you don't watch many fighting movies

But really...how much skill does an assult rifle take to use? Are Mia's reflexes that good? Can Jon sneak up on her? Where is the fight? How much amo does she have? Well maybe a rifle isent a good example...

And I meant like in another game...lets say I have a level 10 Zeal attack and my opponent has a level 10 fire ball. Both the same level and do the same damage. That makes sense. But if my zeal did 500-1000 damage and their fireball did 10-20 would this be fair? Or evan make the slightest sense? Nope it woulden't and it dosen't.

So if they have the same Magic skill's shade of blue as my concussion's. and we have a evan essance/health ratio to make that evan. Then logic says it should be extreamly close. But with the magic unfixed, I assure you that it made no sense my concussion skill would fall to a mages attack with such ease from a probobly lower skill. The color absorber said my skill was at 198 then...if the mages skill was higher I admit my stupidity......

Let's put it this way. if we both have the same amount of skil lwith throwing rocks, but yours is soft and round, while mine is pointy and hard, whose is going to do the larger amount of damage? That's right, mine. And no, neither of us are wearing helmets or have "anti-pointy" potions.

Anyway, it's the same concept. Just because you're skilled with something doesnt mean you can do the same damage with it.

Jori · Post by **Jori** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:01 am

Finally, it's my impression that magic is supposed to be more powerful than fighting.

Why is it that nobody has said this before now? (or if they have I didnt read pages 2-10 or so). I mean LOGICALLY magic will be more powerful. And LOGICALLY it will also be harder to learn. So how about we all stop complaining that 'omg sum1 was able 2 kill my uber pwrgamed s00per charcater tehy cant b allowed 2 do taht' (If you're not a pger then no offense intended but still stop complainin will ya? It is what it is.)

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:02 am

Still, if magic has all advantages, and fighting has none, its not fun for fighters. Mages can teleport, heal, make walls, burn peoples, etc etc. The only thing warriors can do is fighting, can they at least be good at it? I mean what is the suckiest thing is that a complete n00b will die as fast as an experienced fighter in heavy armor. Yeah, it takes more RP to be a mage, but then they get more RP, so its not a good reason. In one on one, a mage cant lose, whatever his skill, he throws magic stuff until the warrior gets close, then he runs, then when he took a good distance he send more magic stuff, then runs. Thats why i wanted to make some sort of chasing system, cause long ranged characters wont be possibly killed until they have 3 peopels on them. I say, a mage should lose in a one on one with a fighter of the same skill. Mages shoulnt be strong alone, they should be in group, because in fights their main purpose is supporting the fighters, isnt? If we make them deadly in 1 on 1, then in group they makes the opposite side impossible to win, since fights are long, while magic kills quickly.

Jori · Post by **Jori** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:08 am

he throws magic stuff until the warrior gets close, then he runs, then when he took a good distance he send more magic stuff, then runs

Only problem with that is that most mages have lower agility so they move slower and the fighter can catch up.

Another idea...
Make different schools of magic so you have to advance and get better in the "fire or destruction or teleportation" schools to use the spells in each one. Or you could make a limit to how many of each spell a mage could cast within a certain time (kind of like the dungeons and dragons computer games where you could only cast it a certain amount of times per day except with some tweaking obviously)

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:08 am

Arameh_ wrote:Still, if magic has all advantages, and fighting has none, its not fun for fighters. Mages can teleport, heal, make walls, burn peoples, etc etc. The only thing warriors can do is fighting, can they at least be good at it? I mean what is the suckiest thing is that a complete n00b will die as fast as an experienced fighter in heavy armor. Yeah, it takes more RP to be a mage, but then they get more RP, so its not a good reason. In one on one, a mage cant lose, whatever his skill, he throws magic stuff until the warrior gets close, then he runs, then when he took a good distance he send more magic stuff, then runs. Thats why i wanted to make some sort of chasing system, cause long ranged characters wont be possibly killed until they have 3 peopels on them. I say, a mage should lose in a one on one with a fighter of the same skill. Mages shoulnt be strong alone, they should be in group, because in fights their main purpose is supporting the fighters, isnt? If we make them deadly in 1 on 1, then in group they makes the opposite side impossible to win, since fights are long, while magic kills quickly.

what part of "harder to learn" do you not get? And also, in a 1 on 1, if the fighter starts right by the mage, he'd likely win from what ive seen. But if he doesnt, and the mage has a wand, the mage should win.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:11 am

I meant if they mage and fighters starts from a good distance. As for "harder to learn", if its harder to learn, but stronger in the end, then its better, as simple as that.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:21 am

Arameh_ wrote:I meant if they mage and fighters starts from a good distance. As for "harder to learn", if its harder to learn, but stronger in the end, then its better, as simple as that.

If they start froma good distance, the mage should win. He'd have time to protect himself and cast a few spells at the fighter. if they started up clos,e the fighter should win, as the mage would be mostly unprotected. As for it being better, yes, something taking longer and thats harder to learn should be better. I dont see how that isnt fair.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:39 am

No mage will start up a fight at close distance, they cast spells the moment they see the enemys. As i wrote, as you seemingly didnt read, a mage in a battle should be a support. Yes, a mage in a 4 on 4 is mroe useful than a fighter, much more. Thats ok, but a mage killing a fighter running all speed in his direction sucks, until the mage has better skills. As i said, fighting is only used in battles, magic is in many other things, and to make a good figther it needs much more training than you think. Yes, the "skills" raises faster maybe, but magic can be casted everywhere, fighting cannot, we need to get to the NPCs, kill them, come back. And when fighting skills are very high, we need to fight players, if they are none, no training. A mage is defenseless alone, its logic, thats the only damn disadvantage they have compared to fighters, cant you freacking accept it? I accepted that mages are better than warriors in big battles, cause its logic, i accepted that mages can become stronger with a slow raising skill, cause its logic, but you gusy got to accept that a simple mage without armor should be defenseless if he is alone, CAUSE ITS LOGIC AND FUN FOR EVERYONE.

Please, read it all before posting.

Jori · Post by **Jori** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:12 am

Yes, a mage with only mediocre skill should not usually be able to defeat a grandmaster fighter perhaps. However, in 1v1 a mage should still be able to win if skill is similar to that of a fighter because they would cast a protection spell on themselves and then start blasting away at the fighter. If the fighter is able to get to the mage then the mage will die fairly quickly even with a protective spell. If the mage runs, the fighter will catch up because he will have higher agility in general.

Durgin · Post by **Durgin** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:22 am

I don't see how a mage could concentrate on casting spells if a fighter is swinging their axe at them. Unless the char is like a grand mage who can just think of a spell and it happens, they should be forced to hand to hand combat once the fighter gets to them.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:28 am

they should be forced to hand to hand combat once the fighter gets to them.

once a fighter gets them the typical mage is dead. And not able to cast anything.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:39 am

Arameh you seemed wrapped around the fighting aspect of fighting in this game. regardless of rp value.

Still, if magic has all advantages, and fighting has none, its not fun for fighters.

this was a choice of every player. those who didn't amp fighting stats have waited a long time to have something while the fighter group had all the fun. (monster quests, the lich war etc) no mage stat characters were involved in it.

In one on one, a mage cant lose, whatever his skill, he throws magic stuff until the warrior gets close, then he runs, then when he took a good distance he send more magic stuff, then runs

obvisously your spending to much time obsessing over the techincal aspects of the game rather then the roleplay. this isn't a game where you go out and picks fights with everyone and everything. i don't see people fighting mages all day. i don't even see why such things would be needed. unless you actively go mage hunting i doubt this situtation will come about. all Arameh the character has to do his treat the mage with the respect he gives any character. if character Arameh doesn't respect anyone but strong fighters, well thats a problem for character Arameh because it's his personality type, just saying 'i can't beat this person if i ever decide to get uppity with them' isn't a good enough reason in my book.

Mages shoulnt be strong alone, they should be in group, because in fights their main purpose is supporting the fighters, isnt?

what makes you think magic is all about fighting. again your showing that this discussion isn't on the right track. all you see is the weapon aspect, why? because you play a character who spends all his days fighting ALL the time, and what you enjoy most in this game is fighting other people/npcs. if that weren't true we wouldn't be having this conversation.

more over what makes you think that players of mages have designed there characters to wrap around your narrow veiw of this game. what makes you think these characters WANT to be your 'support'. what makes you think half of them even like to fight? every character should get his or her chance to play there character as they see fit. you did when you made Arameh a fighter, Arameh the character doesn't want to play meat shield for people when they fight. he wants to do things his way.

mages are not meant to be your guns, your first aid kit or your antidote. there players and as players you should all spend less time dumping on the system and it's players over singular circumstances, spend less time thinking about fighting and learn to enjoy the game for it's other aspects.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:46 am

Durgin wrote:I don't see how a mage could concentrate on casting spells if a fighter is swinging their axe at them. Unless the char is like a grand mage who can just think of a spell and it happens, they should be forced to hand to hand combat once the fighter gets to them.

you realize ilalrion's magic lore relies on speaking ancient words, right? Theres more to it, but thats the gist of it. Unless the fighter cuts the mage's mouth off, the mage can utter the spells. And sinc emost mages have willpower set high, it seems roleplay-positive that they can even utter thee words under extreme pain. And as everyone else said, once you get to the mage it's dead within seconds ANYWAY

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:23 am

And as everyone else said, once you get to the mage it's dead within seconds ANYWAY

*nods* And you will get to the mage anyway, since nearly every mage has the lowest agility ever. (atleast, those with the high magic stats you are up against, apparently)

Post by **Nitram** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:30 am

Athian wrote:probably a scripting error.

Surely not.
With 1/2 of the full skill and pretty low mage attributes, you can't cast spell with a higher damange, then they should have maximal.

The error increased the strengh of the magic more then 3x then the magic should be on the level.

The most mages were able to cast high end spells with 1/3 of the skillpoints.

So there is no scripting error. It was one, but now its solved.

Nitram

Markous · Post by **Markous** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:46 am

Korwin wrote:Magic is not a skill solely for combat.
Magic allows a character to transport themselves over distances.
Magic allows a character to create food items.
Magic allows a character to erect a wall.
Magic allows a character to heal another character.
This is an abridged version of the list of magical abilities to be obtained, it is completely unfair to compare magic skills to fighting skills.

The best comment I have read in this flame-topic so far.

Mages can create food, walls, flames, teleport, far-travel via portals, paralyse, throw other chars back via air-spells, heal, etc. Later, they even can make mass-attacks and flame-rings, etc.

Whoever here is complaining about attack magic too weak is not thinking before writing. This shows the true face of some players here.

Please consider, that mages can be a magical jack-of-all-trades, while fighters can only fight in close combat.

Mages are far more gifted then the strongest fighters.

In addition to this: Once the Druid, Bard, Priest, etc. systems will be ready, this is going to be even more complex. However, I fear, some players never learn and will complain each time they see one of those systems released.

Samantha Meryadeles · Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:52 pm

Markous, a mage can't do that anymore what you mentioned. A mage can't teleport anymore from beginning, he can't create a wall anymore from beginning. That all needs now training, alot of training, and that in different schools.

All my mage, which i train since 3-4 weeks, can do yet is a fireball,creating a single wall, summoning 3 apples and healing every 10th try.

Markous · Post by **Markous** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:22 pm

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:All my mage, which i train since 3-4 weeks, can do yet is a fireball,creating a single wall, summoning 3 apples and healing every 10th try.

I will not comment that.

Jeremy Gems Willowbrook · Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:42 pm

The skill cap/skill gain needs adjusting. I logged in fresh today and was only able to cast a few Orl Kah before hitting the cap.

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:30 pm

WEll, teleportation is possible from the very beginning (just not to towns, but short distances), yet the lower your skill, the worse your coordination is. I usually end up 4 tiles or so from intended location, which can often create awkward situations.
You can also throw characters back from the very beginning Sam.
The only thing that we cannot do as he mentioned is paralyse and far-travel.