Suggestion: Variable Attributes?

[Llama]

Suggestion: Variable Attributes

Current attribute system is like this: you stick (limited) attributes to your character, and your character remains with the same attributes. So you can also have a person with 18 strenght, who ends up (with time) being an old man who can still kill people with ease. So the suggestion is to make attributes variable, and there are a number of reasons.

1) Sometimes attributes are set up wrongly, especially by n00bs. Remember Eliron? He had less than average dexterity, and whislt he was a good carpenter (with regards to amount of items to be made); the quality level stank. Now this new system is based a lot on attributes, so there is more at stake.
2) Sometimes combinations go against the Rped character. I mean if you have an elf character, who you want to be a fighter; he'll end up with little intellegence; which is strange for an elf
3) They aren't connected with the RPed things. You can have an orc character with low strenght, who still RPs as being mean and scary.

So the idea is this: Player sets up attributes, and the attributes are implanted into the character. However, they can now change. Now I see a number of problems, the major one being powergaming to get attributes; so here is the solution.

Every 1 hour spent ingame (for example); an attribute is to rise by 1. The server keeps track of any change in skills, and at the end of the hour does this: Sorts the skills into sections, depending on which attribute it uses most. Adds +1 attribute to the section which gained most skill. In practice, if you spent the last hour IG mining, you'll gain +1 strenght. If the person fought a lot, the increase is random for the fighting attributes.

2nd Problem is this: You can have people with lots of everything. So the idea gives also a drain system. If within 10 increases (for example), an attribute hasn't increased; it decreases by 1.

This will be more RP; because:
If you spent your life mining, you'd be stronger. And if you stop exercising, you'll lose all that strenght which you gained.

Feel free to rip it to shreds

[Aristeaus]

Mmm good and bad, i see what your saying, where different crafts would alter the attributes. So in the factor of certain skills maybe gaining you str, they may reduce your int etc. etc..

[Poots]

hmmmm, interesting


I remember I screwed up my attributes when I made my character, but I think this is easily power gamed


over all, I don't think this will work.

and don't forget the programming

[Llama]

Programming shouldn't be a problem; all they have to do is add another condition to the IF function which deals with skill gain.

The problem is more like that which the server has to store for each character.

And if you'r ready to read the same book for 99 times in one hour to get 1 point of intellegence, then you really are a pwrgamer who wastes his life...

OK sure I could make him read once, and leave him there and every hour read again.. but is it really worth the trouble?

[Nitram]

I see the problem that some chars with all attribs on maximum, are running around then.

All in all i think, the current one is fine...really.

Nitram

[Llama]

2nd Problem is this: You can have people with lots of everything. So the idea gives also a drain system. If within 10 increases (for example), an attribute hasn't increased; it decreases by 1.

I already thought of that master Nitram...

And the current one constricts noobs.. and is bad for realism. I mean which 16 year old is stronger than an orc?

[Markous]

I am against changeable Attributes.

[Lennier]

So today my char high strengh to fight an orc, tomorrow high intelligence to make my potions or to spell a magic thing and the day after tomorrow the orc-problem raises up again and therefore i change the attributes to become a good fighter again... Erm, bad idea i think.

This will be more RP; because:
If you spent your life mining, you'd be stronger. And if you stop exercising, you'll lose all that strenght which you gained.

You get mining-skill for that. Your char becomes faster, the success rate grows. Attributes define the physical and mental limits of the char and can not be changed.

Age: personally i do not like the Idea, but maybe it is a logic consequence to implement it sooner oder later.

Personally i prefer a system with a limited number (treasure) of skill-points for all skills (maybe categorized in groups). If a char has no free skillpoints it would be possible, that functions, which are not used for a long time can be forgotten to advantage to a currently regulary used function (Example: A smith decides to become a farmer. With time (numbers of acting over the skill-treasure-limit) he can become a good farmer, but he lose his knowledge in smithing). Would prevent the mastering of 10 skills but would be flexible enough for smooth changes in the behavior of chars.

[Arameh]

I personally like the attribute changable idea, or something simillar. I dont like that much now because for example, if you put bad fighting attributes(low str agi etc) then your character cannot fight all his life, no matter how he trains. We should have a way to change that, because anyone in RL that is weak, can become strong with training, because theses thigns changes. Same for intelligence, you can be a freacking idiot when young and become a psychologist, or whatever its spelled. And the attributes currently dosent really fit with the RPing like Hadrian said. And also, another reason is n00bs that puts really bad attributes for anything, Arameh has decent ones, even though not formidable since my first character, but i know some players that have horrible attributes, they just cant fight at all, or craft, depending on what they want to do. Also Lennier, the mining skill is not everything of mining, because if you got 6 strenght, even if your mining skill is maxed, your character will suck in mining, because he wont be able to drag his minerals because they will be too heavy.

[Poots]

yeah, I just want one chance to change my stats. I screwed them up as a noob, but I don't want everyone changing their stats everyday, so I guess I'll just have to deal with it

[Estralis Seborian]

Variable attributes are an option, however, I see no reason to implement this. I think the current system works fine, fixed attributes and variable skills.

Have you ever thought about something like attributes boosting spells or items? Even though this is not possible with the current server version, I think this is the way to go.

[Llama]

Attribute boosting items? WHat about the amulets or rings? Shouldn't those do that already?

Spells i disagree strongly.

[Dónal Mason]

I believe some temporary attribute raising spells would be nice.

[Lennier]

Yes and drugs with advantages and disadvantages in matter of some attributes.

[Nitram]

But this is not possible currently.

[Gro'bul]

I don't like the idea of having more than the set amount of points. However I think a variable of 5 points on each attribute is acceptable and very much wanted. For example: You set your intelligence to 3, you could never raise it above 8 and you'd be in the process taking away from other attributes. If you have 8 dexterity, you could get it to 13 but again taking from other attributes. I like this idea alot, I think ALOT of mc points using a certain attribute(s) should alter 1 point. I'd like this alot, and I'm sure others who are willing to play that long just to have a few points changed. I understand you can't really improve your vision from practicing looking at things or most of the things you are born with, but again, its a game.

[falco1029]

they should be variable but not much should be able to be added, maybe at most 3 points. The rest would be tradeoffs, meaning if you take time to study your muscle decreases, etc

[Llama]

Tradeoffs i can agree upon, or else degration with age....either way

[Nalzaxx]

IMHO variable attributes unbalance the game in favour of hardcore gamers, and leave casual gamers in the dust.

[Estralis Seborian]

I thought this proposal was ment like this: Everyone starts with choosen attributes (with a total of a fixed value) and while playing, the server adjustes the attributes (same total value) in a new way, fitting the style of the character. A rising total of attributes, as known from many MMORPGs, won't help Illarion for it would seperate the characters into "levels", much more than the current skill system already does.

Anyway, I doubt there are major benefits of such a system. Or do you think the static attributes are a brick in the wall that spoils off players? I don't think so...

[Arameh]

For trade off or whatever, it depends...if you gain strenght, you may lose agility or dexterity, but you cant lose intelligence because you trained dex, because thats illogic. But i like the idea of variables, attributes woulnt take a day to raise or lower, it would still keep logic with the character, and make more realism. Because in RL, and characters as well, they change a lot, some become more intelligent, some become stronger etc etc. It should be more based on training than born stuff i think. The idea of amulets and rings is not too bad, and i think its already implemented, but we CANNOT find out what they do, in 0 ways, so most peoples wears random rings that looks nice. Similar to armors, most fighters wears a Lor-Angur, because its the hardest to smith, even though some other armors may be better fit for them, but they dont know, so they all use LOr-Angur. Similar to attributes, n00bs dosent know at all what most attributes do exactly, and they end up having attributes that are not fitting the roleplay of their character, i think variable attributes would fix that because the characters would have the possibility to change, and then fit to the character in a better way.

[Llama]

Or do you think the static attributes are a brick in the wall that spoils off players? I don't think so...

It takes you a few chars to get used to them. And I mentioned Eliron which I had to stop playing because his attributes were weak.. he had potential, and i used to enjoy rping with him.

It also makes no sense that its fixed...

[Nop]

If you have a vision of your char, you can model him with static attributes allright. I had to scrap my first char, too, due to useless attributes, but I don't mind. I think that variable attributes are the mainstay of powergaiming and I am very happy that they are static in Illarion.

[Arameh]

I dont understand any link with that and powergaming, the more you train the stronger you get, the more you run the faster you run after, thats basic logic. When i see peoples on the olympics i dont tell them"Hey he trained a lot in a small amount of time, its a powergamer!", if you just train in illarion and dosent RP, then thats your problem, there even is a skill cap. I dont think we should restrict logic to prevent powergaming or whatever...personally i know no one that i would say he only play to get skills, everyones RP.

[Quinasa]

It also makes no sense that its fixed...

I think it makes sense. Some people don't want their stats changing so static stats are the way to go for that. Just about everyone has had to trash a character or ten before they got the stats the way they wanted them. I'm against the idea you proposed. :/

[Estralis Seborian]

Now, the question is what makes most sense in terms of fun and game balance. I have played Planescape Tornment, a CRPG that features variable attributes and it was no fun for me. I prefer characters I designed, not the server. Like, when I want to play a clever char, I set INT on 16 or such - I don't want to shift-click on books to maintain this intelligence level, you know.

Anyway, it is a valid proposal for many other games do it this way. But I think Illarion should go the D&D-way.

[Nop]

the more you train the stronger you get, the more you run the faster you run after, thats basic logic.

A very optimistic view on live I dare say.

Of course, you'd also have to decrease the attributes as chars grow older. You'd also have to permanently decrease them if they get hurt badly or get seriously sick.

[Naybet Grint]

I think it makes sense to be fixed, and is better for game balance.

This is despite me "screwing up" as a newbie. I made a character with a particular mind set, and an idea of the things they might do. This gave me enough info to choose stats. Sadly my preconceptions of the world were bad guesses, and I ended with a character desperate to become a druid, but without a stat critical to it. RPing this hopeless situation was great fun, and, as far as I'm concerned, they became a druid and is currently living happily ever after. The game system doesn't recognise that acheivement because of the stats, but the RPers do.

Next time I make a character I'll have a different experience because I'll balance the stats "right" for what they want to do.

The only situation I could see that justifies permanent stat changes is as a result of "divine intervention" or something similarly "once in a lifetime", rather than acheivable by consistent powergaming. Also if a stat goes up, another should always come down (in my opinion of game balance).

[Namegam]

I love the idea of dynamic character attributes. I think it mimics real life very well. But I also agree with the people complaining about powergaming and the benefits of static attributes. So how about a compromise? Let's blend the two and create an even more realistic format:
Say that all of your attributes start out equal-- no one thing is greater than the other. Your character is young and ready to try new things! So you try carpentry. Fun, but not for you. Tailoring? Cloth isn't your thing. But smithing: ah, yes, smithing is what you love to do! So you focus and your skills build.
I say that you focus while your character is young on trying everything, and once you find what you want your character to be, you can focus on that thing and his skills and attributes in regards to that area can grow; however, over time it will become harder for your other attributes to grow, and especially the ones that you haven't exercised in your skill.

In other words, it's like how adults can't learn a new language because their bodies have forgotten how to make the right sounds, even though when they were born there were thousands of sounds possible. Let the attributes change and be dynamic while the character is young, but over time make them more and more static to the point that if your character hasn't really chosen a hardcore profession he'll just be a hum-drum not-really-good-at-anything kind of guy.
I admit that would be a bitch to script, but I say if after a month or so you haven't found your niche in the Illarion society, you're screwed.

My humble opinion.

[Aegohl]

Nature (static stats) vrs. Nurture (dynamic stats) is something you decide when you're starting to build a game and no five years later.