Less predictable fighting?

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:42 pm

I know the new fighting system is currently being made, but I would still like to share an idea. Dont kill me if something like this is allready being planned.
Fighting in Illarion is very experience based and predictable, just as it is in every single MMORPG I'ave played. Good fighter can allways kill a novice fighter without any doubts... my halfling allways needs to stab a pig 18-20 times before it dies... mummies however need 50 hits to die.
It is all predictable.

Playing a roguelike game named Unreal world (sorry for the advertisement

) really opened my eyes. You never know whats going to happen. Even if you were the greatest fighter in the world theres allways a change that the next angry peasant fighter suprices you and makes an instant kill by hitting his pitchfork in back of your head. Luck playes an important role in combat and that way things stay interesting.
Its impossible to say how much damage the next hit is going to make and theres no superhumans who can only be killed with decent sized army.

I also feel that newbie characters are far too bad compared to experienced ones. One experienced fighter could easily beat 10 newbies without a scratch. Thats awfully unrealistic and boring if you ask me. Everyone should be killable with attleast few nice sword hits.
I know characters dont actually gain hitpoits when they get more experienced, but it seems to me that even if you fail a dodging a strike you still get only small damage if you are highty skilled.

Thanks for reading.
What do you think?

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:53 pm

There is "Luck" incooperated in the fighting system, I have seen random numbers everywhere.
'Critical Hits' also appear from time to time and dealing a bunch of damage at once to the defender.

Also, I don't share you basic opinion:
A experienced fighter should always win over a unexperenced fighter...
A good equiped fighter should always win over a badly equiped fighter...

... these statements hold true in any 1 on 1 situation.
As soon as these odds change I have seen our fighting system favour the pure numbers of attackers.

So 10 newbies (given they use at least a weapon and have a little skill) actualy have good chances against a well experienced, or good equiped, fighter.
Try to fight some mummies at once and you will notice this too.

In a not to distant future you'll be able to work out some tactics to take out a superiour foe too.

Feel free to impale yourself on any sharp object you have at hand.

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:55 pm

Soon, just two weak enemies can be a big dnager to a strong character, since attacking from behind does a LOT more damage.

Quinasa · Post by **Quinasa** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:57 pm

I think the current fighting system is quite fair, giving everyone a chance. Its not the experienced fighters' faults that you are new. You shouldn't be attacking an experienced character as a n00b anyway, its common sense. You earn the experience you earn fairly. Now if you had been around before the new server and character wipe you wouldn't be complaining now, but there are definitely more self proclaimed heros now than there were then. :/

EDIT: Right on Keikan. *swoons*

Nop · Post by **Nop** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:30 pm

I think fighting should not be more dependent on luck, but put more emphasis on tactics. And I hear the new combat system will provide just that.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:43 pm

Keikan Hiru wrote: Also, I don't share you basic opinion:
A experienced fighter should always win over a unexperenced fighter...
A good equiped fighter should always win over a badly equiped fighter...

I dont see it that way. I think it should be unlikely but still possible that the underdog wins. Thats how it works in RL too.

There is "Luck" incooperated in the fighting system, I have seen random numbers everywhere.
'Critical Hits' also appear from time to time and dealing a bunch of damage at once to the defender.

Thanks for the info...But i havent really noticed this. Maybe just because I have little PVP experience.

You shouldn't be attacking an experienced character as a n00b anyway, its common sense.

Yeah...offcourse it would be dumb newbie who would attack skilled fighter(It can be another way around too), but I still feel there should be change that even a real underdog could win.

Nalzaxx · Post by **Nalzaxx** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:48 pm

198/198 Char?

Belgram · Post by **Belgram** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:52 pm

It's on a skill base out of 225 dependent on the blueness.

Belgram · Post by **Belgram** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:02 pm

Trying to make you look good...Tut...

Lauranthalas · Post by **Lauranthalas** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:14 pm

Beware the evil GM's do not see you refering to the evil skill level colourness which no one is meant to know.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:33 pm

I dont see it that way. I think it should be unlikely but still possible that the underdog wins. Thats how it works in RL too.

Lol...you watch too much TV

.

In RL the Underdogs lose, not win like in movies.

Gromblun · Post by **Gromblun** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:36 pm

what about the movie Dodgeball : A True Underdog story, that could happen

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:48 pm

Galim wrote:
I dont see it that way. I think it should be unlikely but still possible that the underdog wins. Thats how it works in RL too.
Lol...you watch too much TV .

In RL the Underdogs lose, not win like in movies.

Bullshit.

In movies the pro fighter(good guy) allways wins.
I give you an example:
Lets say Andre Agassi is the best tennis player in the world.
Does it automatically mean that he is going to win every game he playes?
Hell no. And even if he loses in rare occasions, he can still be the number one.
And I didnt say underdogs win. I said there should be a CHANGE(small one) that even underdogs win.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:51 pm

Xalliar wrote:Well... I fought an ogre with my 198/198-Char in Full armor, and a critical took it 1/2 of the HP instantly...so it really IS quite dependent on luck.

Allright. Shame on me then.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:03 pm

If André Agassi would play tennis against me, I would lose always.
There is absolutly no chance for me, an unexperienced tennis player, to even win a single set.
I lack the technique, the condition and the basic know-how.
Maybe I get a lucky but very rare point, we could consider this as a 'critical'.

This way fighting works too.
The experienced, seasoned warrior, is going to have the upper hand just because he knows what he is doing and the beginner does not.
It would be extreemly unfrair if this logic advantage would be nullified, don't you think ?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:05 pm

What if you cheat? What if you try a different tactic?

Look at football (Real football, not that American rubbish); do the 'best' teams win ALL the time?

Some tactics work on some types, some don;t

Back to fighting:

If you fight a Troll, you can just stab him to death with a dagger, whislt dodging him and laughing at his stupidity.
Try to do that with someone who's fast but less strong...

Its all in the tactic

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:17 pm

Get away from comparing someone/something/some team playing in the same league, they are almost always equaly experienced, equipped of what not.

Compare Amateuers to Pro's and you are on the right track.

I have never seen a amateuer football/soccer team win against a pro team.

"Cheating" is out of discussion, you cannot (really) cheat the combat system unless you have access to the server source, compile a new one and boot the server with that modified source.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:25 pm

Cheating during the fight:

Blowing dust,
Backstabbing
Beating up the person beforehand

I wasn't trying to encourage server-wise

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:50 pm

Keikan's got it right on the point. Experienced guys up against newbies or lesser experienced guys will always win, otherwise there'd be no point in them being more experienced, would there?

On the other hand, I'm definately of the opinion that weapons of all kinds should cause much more damage than they currently do...you know, to make characters more believable...fearing big, sharp metal objects being thrown at them by a person with the intention to kill.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:55 pm

Sancho wrote:
Galim wrote:
I dont see it that way. I think it should be unlikely but still possible that the underdog wins. Thats how it works in RL too.
Lol...you watch too much TV .

In RL the Underdogs lose, not win like in movies.
Bullshit. In movies the pro fighter(good guy) allways wins.
I give you an example:
Lets say Andre Agassi is the best tennis player in the world.
Does it automatically mean that he is going to win every game he playes?
Hell no. And even if he loses in rare occasions, he can still be the number one.
And I didnt say underdogs win. I said there should be a CHANGE(small one) that even underdogs win.

You're confusing the sports realm for hand to hand brother. A guy more experienced in anything that is truly martial in nature will always beat anybody of lesser skill. Not trying to derail the topic, just giving Keikan more weight for his argument.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:32 am

Yeah and just to say when fighters reach a certain skill level it is very very hard to grow it up then, im sure you cant even imagine how much Arameh has trained

, so if my char would be beaten by a newb i woulnt be happy, same for all thoses that trained their character a lot.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:25 am

You're confusing the sports realm for hand to hand brother. A guy more experienced in anything that is truly martial in nature will always beat anybody of lesser skill. Not trying to derail the topic, just giving Keikan more weight for his argument.

Quite opposite if you ask me. In RL fighting you only need to screw up once to lose/die. One failed dodge and thats it if your unlucky. But Andre Agassi should mess up pretty badly to lose a full game agains an amateur.

I am pretty sure that even the 1st ranked fencer in the world doesnt win every competition/duel he takes part in. And I bet he has sometimes losed a single points even against someone with notably less skill. Even the most skillfull "true martial in nature"-guy makes mistakes. Everyone does.

But again...if there allready is 1/2-health taking critical hits, I agree that there is a reasonable change allready.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:51 am

You are seemingly still caught in this very fundamental mistake.

Of course the 1st ranked fencer does not always win competions he takes part in, but this is because in this competion are others with similar training and skills like him/her.

True, each and everyone does mistakes, even in important competions, but this does not mean they are going to loose the whole fight/tournament/tie/whatever.
A soccer team can still win 2:1, they made a mistake, but won in the end.
André Agassi could win 6:1 against me, he made a mistake, but grounded me in the end.

If you wish, you can now push a spoon deep inside your ear, enlightment will come.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:13 pm

Please keep in mind that this is a game. Playing Trivial Pursuit with a 5 years old child does not make any fun. As does fighting with opponents who are way below / high above one's skill. RL is not a game and usually, games draw their fun from fair competitions.

I also critized the new fighting system as too predictable, some changes were made including wildcard hits and such. The good thing about the upcoming system is that it can be tweaked quite easily without big server updates & downtimes. I'd like to describe what I have in mind as a fair competition:

Code: Select all

Deviation arrows: Actual "attack value" after random test

Bad:

|------| (bad fighter)    
        |------| (good fighter)

------------------> Skill

Good:

|-------------------------------------| (bad fighter)
                          |----------------------------------------| (good fighter)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------> Skill

Bad: A good fighter always wins in every single "diced" attack / parry
Good: A good fighter wins the majority of diced attacks / parries, leaving the bad fighter a chance to hit him, but at the end of the day, the better one wins

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:00 pm

Keikan Hiru wrote:True, each and everyone does mistakes, even in important competions, but this does not mean they are going to loose the whole fight/tournament/tie/whatever.
A soccer team can still win 2:1, they made a mistake, but won in the end.
André Agassi could win 6:1 against me, he made a mistake, but grounded me in the end.

Please consider reading my post again, spoon ear.

In RL fighting you only need to screw up once to lose/die. One failed dodge and thats it if your unlucky. But Andre Agassi should mess up pretty badly to lose a full game agains an amateur.

Yet, I know 1 hit to kill would unlikely be fun in Illa.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:07 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:
Bad: A good fighter always wins in every single "diced" attack / parry
Good: A good fighter wins the majority of diced attacks / parries, leaving the bad fighter a chance to hit him, but at the end of the day, the better one wins

Yeaahh... This is how I see it too.
There is a theorotical change that the underdog wins.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:15 pm

"[...] but at the end of the day, the better one wins.[...]"

Thats the important part from my point of view.

There is always the theoretical chance of wining, since even a newbie has the possibility to land 3 critical hits in a row and with that getting the upper hand of the combat,
but this chance is slim to not existing.

Re-Read my post and consider Estralis post again.
I never claimed the experienced fighter to be un-touchable, but in the longer run he will win.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:55 pm

Argh...

I never claimed newbies should fight pros equally, but they still should have a change of winning. Offcourse the more skilled one should win in the long run. But fights dont last the whole day you know...

Lets say there is a change of 1/3 that the bad fighter succeeds and pro fails.(About as it is In Estralis example above)
So...If the fighters can take for example 3 hits then it equals to 1/3^3=4% change that underdogs win without even getiing hit once.
Got my point allready?

Edit.

In 5 hits long fight:
(1/3)^5
+
(1/3)^5 X (2/3) X 6nCr1(6under1, 6 spots to succeed hitting once)
+
(1/3)^5 X (2/3)^2 X 6nCr2
+
(1/3)^5 X (2/3)^3 X 6nCR3
+
(1/3)^5 x (2/3)^4 X 6nCr4

=22.96...% change of underdog winning.

Nalzaxx · Post by **Nalzaxx** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:28 pm

OK, I've been good, I've held back, I've tried to control myself, even after he does it is capitals and underlines and points out its the most important word to take into consideration.

......

It is spelt... **! CHANCE !**

You have a CHANCE of outdoing a better opponent
You have a CHANCE of getting a lucky hit
you have a CHANCE of doing whatever the hell you like.

It's beside the point, I really don't care but its spelt CHANCE

Not Change, CHANCE!

This is change - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=change

This is chance - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chance

I know you may not be english, I know it may be your 54th language but please, please, please, if you are going to put so much emphasis and importance on a single word, MAKE SURE ITS THE RIGHT ONE!

*pants*

Thank you for your time.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:38 pm

Loool.
Allright. Thank you. I will try to CHANCE that.