The Council of Seven - Knowledge is Power

[Timothius]

I'm missing Erdricks name, Zeratul Aiur!

Why isn't he a member of this coucil?

Sincerly yours

Timmy

[Inioch Hope]

I would like to nominate Cosmaterra if she is not too busy to join this great council. I think she would make a great female member for this council. She is smart and can easely speak for many people. She also has lots of expereance in Illarion.

[Khanja]

I think this is a good idea. I would like to join myself, but because I am seen as a 'newby' I feel I am automatically classed as a trouble maker by a other players ,but I feel that I should still be given a fair chance. If you would be interested, I would be honoured to apply for a position on the council. Please don't jugde me just because I am new. I would offer an open mind to the council, not complacency, prejudice or stereotyping. Unless however you have completed the council before hand. Thank you for your time in considering this matter.
Contact me at Blade_XX2000@Hotmail.com

(( PS Please do not be put off by 'Blade' in my e-mail address, it has no relation towards violence, just the film ))

[Emhyr van Emreis]

Greetings!

 I am still missing the date for a meeting on the island, where those who are members until now can discuss their expectations and plans for the council, and where a "council line" can be decided upon. For as I see it at the time being, we are a group of diverse people who all want to do something for Illarion, but are not especially coordinated. Thus it is very hard, perhaps even impossible, for anybody to actually speak in the name of the council. So i plead of all the council members to post here when they could meet, preferrably within the upcoming weekend and the following few days.
 I know it would be better to wait until the council is full - but if we stay inactive for too long, the idea might loose its momentum and stay an idea. A shame that would be!

[Erdrick]

I sure hope Zeratul Aiur didn't forget about this

[Zeratul Aiur]

Dear fellow citizens,


  No, I have not forgotten about my own Council of Seven. And as for Cosmaterra joining, if whe would post a note on this door telling me that she will join, then I will allow her membership in the Council of Seven.


Dear Emhyr van Emhries,

 I do understand your concern, but if I was really afraid of the Council of Seven falling apart, I would have done something by now. I am glad that you show concern though. The point of this council is to give good advice to others, which requires only to write a note with the answer to the public or a citizens dilema. It does not require for us to meet physically on this land. I do not  mind if the Council of Seven meets on the continent instead of passing notes on this door, I think it would be fun, but until I see it extremely neccesary to meet in person, I would prefer to keep it restrained to this door. Also, think about the danger that certain Council members would be put in? If we met in person, we would have many an evil creature to deal with. So let us restrain ourselves for now.


     To  All present time Council of Seven members,


         I have sensed a void in the world of Illarion that must be attended to post haste. A power beyond handeling has come to be. It is far beyond any of the Council of Seven's members ability to put to an end. I sense a dark power rising from the pits of hell. I feel that if we do not have this matter attended to and supressed, if not destroyed, that it will swallow all that is good and result in complete destruction. I felt it as I was sleeping. A sorry spirit cried out , one that was killed by such a monster as this one that is coming. It begged that I warn the Council of Seven that evil matters were coming, and that they will not be stopped by any normal warrior or wizard, or anything.  If any of you in the Council of Seven has felt this presence, then please let me know to confirm that it is rising, I feel it in my chest and heart. THIS IS URGENT AND MUST BE ATTENDED TO!

[Gurok]

I have felt this evil, and have seen it with my own eyes.  I am not the sort of orc that can sit by and let this evil take root.  I ask, no no, I damand that the existing members meet and come up with a plan to deal with this evil.  If we can not meet in person I will be forced to deal with this evil in orc fashon.  Yes you know what that entail, death, death to all that offend me or my set of morals.  This is why the council must meet.  We must come up with a collective set of rules and morals for the town, now we are forced to live as a single soul in a world of infinate values and this can not last, it is unhealthy.  Once we meet and create a unified theory of how life should be, then and only then can we make the existing world better.  All members tell a time that you can be in town that is convenient to you, I will be there with you if it is in my power, if not......we can meet in small units and share our decisions on the town boards.  These are the topics I wish to discuss:  town laws, punishments for these laws, SMACC prices, punishment for SMACC related violations, a group to enforce the laws, and a center for us to gather, ie a guildhouse.

[Emhyr van Emreis]

Greetings!

 Zeratul, I fully understand your argumentation. But still, the council has to function as one group. Imagine a question, and two anwsers to that question, both from council members, and both giving opposite directions. This would not be good, but it will happen some time if we don't meet to discuss some basic moral lines that we want to move along.
 Gurok, I agree with what you say, but of course, we must see to it that we do not follow in the steps of the group that has been forming around Sir Malasan lately. If we agree on a law, we have to let the citizens of Illarion vote on them, and on eventual enforcement methods. Otherwise we have no right to do anything. We can only offer advice, which is very much already, and, as far as I remember, the actual task of the Council.
 I am against us making any laws simply because of the fact that we are not voted into the council, and we don't have the prooveable majority standing behind us. In that case, we cannot decide for the majority.

[Gurok]

We need to do something while we are waiting for dawn to come.  I say we propose suggestions that we can all discuss in the night that will lead to the overall improvement of our town life.  These suggestions may be laws, enforcement policies, penalties for existing laws, or altering of laws that already exist as well as anything else that comes to mind.  Emhyr, have we not been voted to power?  Even so, someone must step foward and take a leading role in our socieity.  Our town is filled with uninduced murder, stealing, and so forth.  Wouldnt it be most fair to all involved if the person who stepped foward was not one person at all, it was a group of varrying beings each with their own ideas, thus creating a balanced and broad knowledge and idea base.  This is what the council of seven should strive to be, there are a few key pieces missing in our puzzle.  We need a halfling member and female elf, I will not mention any names **cough Cosmaterra  cough*.  I would have loved to have seen Erdrick in our council, he is an old and wise merchant, but if it is not possible so be it.  We must move on.  I am awaiting the first suggestion, after this I will share mine.

[Zeratul Aiur]

Dear Council Members,


   I am glad that you have also sensed the evil feeling rising in the world Gurok. If any other Council of Seven members sense it, please report, I will wait for 1 other member to sense it before we take action. But, anyhow, If meeting is what you wish, then I shall try to run into members in this world of Illarion. It will be fairly easy, I have a pretty good sense, even though it be an old one. If you , of the Council of Seven, wish to make laws, then here are some I promote. I am not saying by writing these that this is official, but this is what I think some of the laws should be:

1.  NO stealing: it is unkind and a leach on socioty. Many people work hard and then thieves come by and take what people have worked hard to gain. The punishment for stealing should be death, or 5 ingots(which would go to the making of our guild house, which would be small)

2. NO mass killing or random killing: if someone kills someone else for the pure perverse joy or just plainly to kill for no reason at all, then they should be killed. If someone mass kills a person, then they must be killed as many times as they murdered the victim, or pay however many times they killed the person times 10, and that will be the amount of ingots to pay .

3.NO insulting because of someones race: if anyone is caught insulting a person because of there race, they will be forced to pay 2 ingots , and if resists, be killed until they pay the price commanded.

4.To accuse someone of a crime, the accusor must have three allibies( people who saw the crime in action(( or a screenshot that is of sufficient)) ).

5.There is no set price for selling products: People that make there things should be able to sell for whatever they wish, if not give it away for free. Otherwise the people of Illarion might as well be under a communist reshime.


      Well, those are some of the rules that I have laid down. The Council should tell me which ones that they think are good to keep, and the ones that they think should be deleted. The Council members should also tell me and the other members some of there ideas for laws. Once all the different ideas for laws have been said, they should all be laid out on a letter and voted on. WHich ever ones get voted against should be deleted, which ever ones get voted for should be kept. We will go through more purification and tests as to why we should keep the laws and how to enforce them. But until then, this is the plan:


I WILL TALK TO ALL MEMBERS WHOM I SEE IN THIS LAND. KEEP YOUR FELINGS OPEN FOR THE EVIL SENSE, WE NEED ONLY ONE MORE SENSE FROM THE COUNCIL OF SEVEN TO TAKE ACTION, AND TELL ME MORE IDEAS FOR LAWS.




                   Sincerely,
                      Zeratul Aiur

[Astral]

<OOC>
The random killing one is nothing that should be taken on by the council, since it is a rule of Illarion (PK) and not just a player rule.  Such things are not to be taken care of by the players, rather the GMs.
</OOC>

I think that the price law is sort of harsh, as it forbids any formation of groups or associations.  Then what would you consider the communist rule?

[Emhyr van Emreis]

Greetings!

 Yes, I have sensed the evil too, which is why I joined the council... But you see, the laws you proposed... I think this is exactly why we should meet. First of all, I absolutely disagree with your rules 1 and 5, as I am a supporter of SMACC and as I think that some thieves ((theives who do good RP)) are an integral part of our world. Also I do not think that any crime ever can be an excuse for the penalty of death. I hold a person's life very much higher than I will ever hold material goods, no matter how precious they may be. The same thing goes for rule 3.
 Also, I do not see why we should think ourselves in the position to actually enforce rules, until a vote, it might be on these boards, has decided that our "rule" is welcomed by the people of Illarion. Remember Sir Malasan?
 As you see, a meeting is really needed, as there are many things that we must discuss.

[Caenolath]

Umm, Emhyr, thieves may be an important part of society, but thieves are Supposed to be punished for thievery, I think however that the penalty is too much... ((And it is also a bit strange role play, I can't remember any towns that would just let thieves steal without any penalty or some such))

[Astral]

Yes, both sides are a bit strange, so I think that you should go with a compromise in the middle.  Leave rule 1, but remove the death penalty.

[Erdrick]

A communist reshime? So you say, but what's this?
Taking money from people and benefit from it...
What is your purpose for this, Aiur?
By all means, take back the rules, they are immoral.

[Caenolath]

Zeratul, you are restricting what people can say, I don't really mind if somebody insults me because I am a lizard, people should be able to say what they wish! I do NOT support a tyranny like that.

[Astral]

The council has only been gathered for a very short time, so you can't go making important rules yet.  Nobody in the town has given you permission to influence them so much.  If you try to put these rules into effect now, they townsfolk will not obey, since it came so suddenly.  They will not be happy with others making these decisions for them.  You can keep the rules if you want, but you will have an awfully hard time enforcing them.

[Zeratul Aiur]

Dear Writers and Council Members,


  If I seemed to mean that I would be collecting money for the council, then please forgive me, I meant no harm. It would be better if they had the death penalty and the price of ingots to pay. But all the ingots would go towards a public building. As I believe I said before, please , if you are in the Council of Seven, please, write down your own set of rules and post them on this door so that all Council of Seven members may read them. After the majority of the members of the Council have posted,  we will all talk about which ones should be kept and deleted. Before we make them an actual law, we will inform the public for about 1 to 2 months about the new laws, we will try to talk to the gods about it also, I am sorry for my slow responding.


                        Sincerely,
                              Zeratul

[Astral]

I don't mean to sound opposing, but why is the council making laws to govern Illarion?  There are only seven in it, the smartest people as you see them, but that does not give a good representation of the people.  Do you honestly think that the people in the council give an accurate representation of the population?  I think you should give the people proper representation before making the laws.  Also, consult the people.  Ask the public what they think of the council.  I am all for making of stricter laws, I just want to make sure that they stick once they are made.

[Kornaloth]

I would suggest that you get the opinions of respected members of society, not everybody, we don't want a thief's opinion on rules, or a murderer's.
You should have a vote, people who are known and trusted by at least 3 people known to be good people should be allowed to vote, but not just everybody should vote, a person should be thought of as trustworthy for his or her vote to matter.


(Edited by Kornaloth at 5:08 am on June 7, 2002)

[Caranthir the great]

"3.NO insulting because of someones race: if anyone is caught insulting a person because of there race, they will be forced to pay 2 ingots , and if resists, be killed until they pay the price commanded."

"they will be forced to pay 2 ingots , and if resists, be killed until they pay the price commanded."

I absolutely Disagree with the rules Nr. 3 and Nr. 5.
The number three would be impossible to define which would be an true insult, atleast in some cases and it would be kind "big brotherish" to watch for what people are saying.
(Also, last but not least the ending of rule three is a direct violation of Illarion rules.)

Nr.2 is for gods to deal..

Nr.5:
Why not? I support SMACC. If having an organization such as SMACC, would be being under the Communist reshime then why not? I wouldn't even call it communism, just perhaps "guided" economy.

Ahem, but any we (council of seven) have no right to make these laws, atleast not yet.

[Emhyr van Emreis]

Greetings!

 After a somewhat prolonged time of absence from the island I think it is time to say something again...
 You see, Zeratul? What Astral and Caranthir say is exactly my point. Who gives us the right to make rules? The council I joined was there to give advice and to help people by leading them the right way, not a party of people trying to enforce rules. We might, someday, evolve into a legislative, but not without the explicit support of Illarion's population and not until we have become well known for wisdom and rightfulness.
 What we can do right now in the way of rules is the following: We can suggest (and I stress it once more, suggest) a few rules in the way of "no casting in town" and suggest what agreeable punishments for violators would be. That would mean discussing openly and publishing a list of guidelines for behaviour na punishment on the island.
 Imagine the following situation: A thief comes running along, steals a few silver bars, and gets caught. What do you do? Some people would do request getting the bars back, some would request getting the bars and some extra stuff back, some would kill him. Because there is no such thing as a generally accepted way of handling such situations. I think it would be a great help for the community of Illarion to define how such situations are to be handled and what punishments are considered normal (and what kind of punishment goes over the edge and is a crime in itself).
 Again, these would have to be guidelines accepted by everybody (like "no casting in town" ), and the enforcers thus would be all townspeople, not a chosen group. These rules of course would have to come into existance through a broad discussion of as many townsmen as possible, not through the decision of one or a few people, as they would have to be also generally accepted.

((Edit: some typos))

(Edited by Emhyr van Emreis at 9:38 pm on June 8, 2002)

[Khanor Faenohan]

@Caranthir, how can you be against rule 5. Ok I can understand you want there to be a good economy, but if people want to sell something for a very low price its their own decision and if everyone were to go by SMACC prices that would be dictating what people do with their produce for sale.

I support the rules as they stand. About the debate over what happens to the money you collect from the criminals, what you could do is at the end of every month post the ammount of money in the fund and have ideas from the public of how to spend it, I for one would like to see a monastery of some sort out of town . Thank you for your time.

[Khanor Faenohan]

Sorry I forgot to add, who are the seven members?

[Erdrick]

There is only 5 so far.

[Khanor Faenohan]

So what do you do as a member of a council?

[Zeratul Aiur]

Dear People,


  I am sorry if what you think I was trying to accomplish with the council was wrong. But it seems that for as many times as I told you the council was for good advice alone, you all kept  bringing up the making rules thing. And when I try to SUGGEST, SUGGEST mind you, I am told that I am not to make rules. Now please make up your mind. And unless you are going to request to join the council, please do not correct what we are suggesting, SUGGESTING mind you.And please ALL COUNCIL OF SEVEN MEMBERS RESPOND. I do not want you only to correct the rough draft set of laws I have made, but I want you to post your own.  I am not saying that they will be used, but I am saying that I want The members of the Council of Seven to suggest there own numbered list of laws. We will take it from there .

[Simonic Jace]

Your intentions are very honourable and sage, Zeratul.... But, I'm afraid I must disagree with the Council of Seven idea.
My reason for doing so is because, and this is no insult to you, but;
1) Giving power to a council of people-be they elf or orc, is insane, you will probably end up going Pking a lot.
2)Most of your "Councilmen," are young ((ooc i.e. in their 21000's....))so are therefore hardly considered as wise.... yes, I know being an older person means nothing, but I'm sure a lot of my fellow, older players may feel uncomfortable taking orders from some young elves, orcs, halflings...etc...
3)Organisations like this have failed miserably once before and will fail miserably once again, for example...
The council already appears to be falling apart, for the love of faeries! The members can't even get in contact with each other...

Well, they're my points...I hope some people see them valid ones.

[Hyssena]

I do realize that the whole idea is to use the wisdom and insight of community elders to influence the island for the better, but perhaps this new blood could venture to share her opinions.

((After all, "Wisdom comes from observation, not old age." I think Voltaire said that, I'm not entirely sure.))

Perhaps I overlooked something (which is entirely possible) but did anyone address Korwin's question? Why seven? Why not twelve, three, eleven, or forty-two?

I find it troubling that those chosen were chosen by Zeratul Aiur. I don't mean to cast aspersions on his wisdom or experience, for surely he has much of both, but he is just one man. There are many others who are both wise and experienced, and if they wished to join this council (and from the looks of things, many of them don't) they would have to be deemed wise or unwise by Zeratul alone. That's not communism, that's a monarchy.

Though I can understand Gurok's voracity in seeking to establish rules, it hardly seems appropriate for a group to form so abruptly and expect to be accepted as a ruling body of the people immediately. (("Hi everybody, we're the government now. If you have any objections, the ocean is thattaway...")) Astral couldn't be more right about this. If you wish, form your council, make suggestions, do your best to improve things, and in time you will gain respect and influence (which is not to say you don't already have it) and in the future people will much more readily accept any laws you deem necessary.

Although I think the intentions behind this idea were very good, I strongly doubt it will be accepted as is. A select cloister of individuals does not have the right to proclaim themselves superior in wisdom and therefore fit to rule the masses. Perhaps if some sort of democracy was integrated into the council. Perhaps council seats should be elected by the public rather than Zeratul, and should be temporary rather than permanent... There are a number of possibilities to consider.

The tree that does not branch hides rot within.

[Caranthir the great]

Democracy? ehh..
I apologise for the sound of disbelief in my voice, but it is my humble opinion that, in this island, a democracy what I thing you mean, is and will not be possible, at least not now..
all those election results to be published.. The flood of complaints about not being elected..

Hmm-m.. Surely, when the account system comes in..
Then we could have a try, don't you agree, Zeratul?

Simonic Jace, which ones of us are younger than 21000?