Shooting arrows at each other.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:13 pm

'Archery duelling' as practice

Discuss it here, please.. not on the other thread.

1) SHould it be illegal/legal?
2) Are there any alternatives?

Shandariel el Lysanthrai · Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:16 pm

Shooting at each other with arrows is forbidden.

In a duel with swords both duellists can chose to hit the opponents armor and/ or shield/sword. The other one can parry and do the same. They can avoid vulnerable targets. The duellist also can controle the strength of their strokes and controle to the damage they do.

But when you shoot with an arrow at each other a hit is a hit. the arrow sticks in your body, painfull and dangerous. You can't control the damage it makes when hitting you. And to hold an shield op so that the other one can "try" to hit the shield is no excuse and changes nothing that your char wouldn't do that.

in the history there was a tradition of training through duels, were the opponents stroke at the swords, shields and not vulnerable armor parts. but never was it tradition to shoot at each other with arrow and bow to get better.

There is a big difference between duelling with arrows and duelling with swords. and you should be able to see the difference. you can controll your strokes with a sword. the strength, the target. the other one has too a sword or shield to defend. and he has armor.

an arrow cant be controlles. just where it hits can be controlled. if it hit you it is not just a cut, or a hit against a sword., it is a damn arrow sticking deep in your flesh, wounding you with terrible pain.

You can ask a friend who is a melee fighter to come with you. while he fights the monsters in melee you can shoot from behind at them. or you can go alone and run, shoot, run.

An archer in a fight will shoot at his enemy and run away or search some defense where he can't be reached before he shoots again. He won't stay still and let the enemy hit him while he reloads his bow and shoot st the enmy in front of him hitting him with a huge mace.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:21 pm

THE DEV HAS SPOKEN

Nitram wrote:If you have one, you can shoot at, you can go hunting monsters, in the way Shandariel said, too. This is no problem.

If two shoot with arrows on each other, this is no durn game. Because a arrow can kill some accidentally very easy.

So if i see one shooting on a other one, then the one who is hitted by the arrows does nothing, this is powergaming for me. And i sometimes reduce skills if i see this to often...

Nitram

Even a blunted arrow?

> Doing nothing as in not RPing? or doing nothing as in not firing back?

Shandariel el Lysanthrai · Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:23 pm

You know that it is a big difference if you shoot an arrow with a head at its tip or a blunt arrow? a blunt arrow misses the weight at its head. It won't fly as good and as precise like an arrow with a head.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:26 pm

Pressure = Force/surface area

Just removing the point, will remove the 'damage' it does; not removing the whole head... just breaking the pointy end into a not-so-pointy end.

EDIT: similar to the 'rubber' bullets that police use nowadays (although a different method, same concept)

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:28 pm

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... elscheiben

Sorry, thats in german. An old proposal of me to implement train constructions/targets (passive and non-mobil monsters), made by carpenters.

Post by **Nitram** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:31 pm

so you talk about THIS kind of arrows?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:32 pm

*Person examines a corpse*
This person was killed during practice
*unsticks a rubber arrow from the person's head*
What a brutal way to die...

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Could we have static targets as per Lennier's proposal [not that i can understand it...]

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:37 pm

The proposal Lennier posted is well thought and all.. looks like more important things kept it from being realised up to now.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:00 pm

There are no armor restrictions for archers so the sinking deep into flesh part is just as silly as duelling near death with double axes. Both are equally stupid in my opinion, nobody ig duels with petty swords, they don't do enough damage. They use huge swords or axes, so the whole argument of that is dead and being kicked. Beyond beginners duelling in hand to hand with some crappy weapons and armor no other sort of duelling is logical. Skirmishes is the only real way pvp you could gain skill logically using super-heavy armors and the best weapons obtainable ig like the current "duels".

Nop · Post by **Nop** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:20 pm

Many sensible characters IG train with simple swords in order NOT to do too much damage during training.

Arrows in RL penetrate armor and shields with ease. I myself have seen arrows go through 2mm steel plates like so much paper, shot from what would have been considered a weak bow in medieval times. Blunt arrows don't penetrate armor, but still kill and maim when hitting a body part.

Practice with arrows is always done with targets. Nobody in his sane mind would offer himself as a target.

Liles · Post by **Liles** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:37 pm

Then why not some low level targets that are the scarecrow graffic that don't move? This allows some practice for newer bow men/women. I agree it could be abused but if you make it low skilled (Pig, maybe mummy) then it can only make it so you can stop a mummy.

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:58 pm

Whats wrong with training on pigs?

Or you could RP that you are shooting arrows at apples!

Devrah Liioness · Post by **Devrah Liioness** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:05 am

Archery is impossible to gain even moderate skill on just monsters alone without taking a year and thousands upon thousands of coppers worth of arrows. If players are to be restricted from PvP archery based on "realism factor", that's just ridiculous in my opnion, and unfair. I really, really hate to break it to some people, but Illarion is a game, not real life. It shouldn't take the same time as real life does to learn anything.

I think archery practice at each other should be fine. If it makes the Gms and Devs feel better, then people can RP it as throwing stones or shooting apples from each others' hands or whatever. But to expect us to actualy gain skill from following a pig around for six hours, and by no other means at all, is a little excessive.

Shandariel el Lysanthrai · Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:18 am

Shooting at each other don't just train archery, but also the parry and dodge of the other one. THATS the problem.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:20 am

Saying you cannot control the strength of an arrow, but you can a sword? This is foolish. This doesn't mean that I agree with the current topic, but it is quite possible to control a strength of an arrow. While controlling the arrow may not provide adequate knowledge of the weapon to gain any real skill, how is it much different from a sword not being used at full strength.

Shandariel el Lysanthrai · Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:24 am

Shall we meet and I slap you carefully with a sword, than you stand in front of my and i pull the string of the arrow just a bit back and shoot the arrow into your chest? Would you do that?

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:36 am

How far will you pull the string back?
How far will you be away from me?
What will the arrow tip look like?

Well, how sharp would the sword be?
How hard would you swing?
Where?

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:36 am

Many sensible characters IG train with simple swords in order NOT to do too much damage during training.

Indeed I duel with short swords or serinjah swords with people pendar trusts. In memory i have fought two duels with real weapons.
One against alkurg over an attack on a grey rose member and one against arameh as pendar wished to stamp his authority.
Pendar bled and limped for a day or more after both...

There are ways to train archery not shooting each other, the archer shooting at you is simply a tatic to train dodge!!
Pendar is harder to hit than most monsters so whats the logic in an archer duel?
Brian

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:55 pm

IF arrows are oh so powerful in RL, and illarion is close to RL; why aren't archers massivly strong killers?

I agree that you can die during practice, but with the current system, you;ll need 30 or more arrows. If you want nobody to shoot at each other, then make the arrows stronger, and people will die by accident.. simple realism.

Same as if people duelled with waraxes...
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And RE: pigs: some elves dotn like killing pigs...

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:22 pm

Bows are not killer weapons because you can use them without anyone noticing it.

Shandariel el Lysanthrai · Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:31 pm

Bows are not killer weapons because you can use them without anyone noticing it.

I think that can be changed easily. a message appearing every time you shoot an arrow.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:34 pm

Shandariel el Lysanthrai wrote:
Bows are not killer weapons because you can use them without anyone noticing it.
I think that can be changed easily. a message appearing every time you shoot an arrow.

Or...a sound effect. Of course, both in conjuction would work better as with a sound you would not know who it is coming from, just a general area.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:39 pm

bow and arrow use should definatly be strenghtened a bit. as for bow use. sure an arrow might pierce thick armor, but they're types of armor in the olden days better designed to handle arrow fire. in fact in some cases even leather would be better then metal when it comes absorbing impacts. which is exactly what a shot arrow would be.
it'd be nice to see some balanced arrow work. not overpowered like double axes and twohanded swords but definatly not under strenght like the one handed weapons. also some armor restrictions would just make sense for archers. being heavy slow and half blind becuase of the full helm will definatly not help you make a good shot.

Nop · Post by **Nop** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:02 pm

Cliu Beothach wrote:
Shandariel el Lysanthrai wrote:
Bows are not killer weapons because you can use them without anyone noticing it.
I think that can be changed easily. a message appearing every time you shoot an arrow.
Or...a sound effect. Of course, both in conjuction would work better as with a sound you would not know who it is coming from, just a general area.

All already implemented on the test server. Just a matter of time...

And then the effectiveness of arrows could be increased

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:13 pm

Archery has long been a weapon of roleplay and most defiantly not combat. Now I can not vouch for it at the exact moment, as my chars skill is not up to much. But bows and crossbows in Illarion have always been far to weak and limited by default I think.

You can not shoot down or up game levels, e.g, from a roof to someone on the ground which takes away a vital advantage. This coupled with the visual range of the game play screen only allowing 3, if I remember correctly… shots at an oncoming monster before you have to drop it for a short sword and buckler. Even as a support weapon it is not much good, the visual limitation means you must get so close to the action that inevitably you are running away trying to drop your bow for a sword and shield once more, only for a lag monster to get you.

I do think it is a weapon that must be treaded carefully in game, for as we have seen in the past is all to easily abused. But that said, it does need modification. Armour limitations when using a bow I agree should be in effect, full leather or chain, maybe a chest plate and helm. Just as using certain arrows e.g hunting arrows on armour are ineffective where as using say, a bodkin arrow would pierce plate armour and chain mail. Having a few types of arrow would make a more genuine vocation of Fletcher

As for training, it's just not wort the time and effort at the moment I dont think. Back in the day a player would stand between two buckets having faith that his students would not hit him but only the target buckets. In actual fact he was stood in plate armour with two shields as the selected target. So that skill could be gained and the buckets RP'ed as the targets.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:17 pm

Back in the day a player would stand between two buckets having faith that his students would not hit him but only the target buckets. In actual fact he was stood in plate armour with two shields as the selected target. So that skill could be gained and the buckets RP'ed as the targets.

uum..well..good that we don't have the old days anymore which were full of powergaming and pk-massacres.

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:46 pm

Atleast they showed RP Galim. And a very ingenious way of doing it in my honest opinion.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:58 am

Shall that mean I show no rp?

.

I prefer these days, than the old with characters who are named "Lord Chaos, Sir Crystal Star or Drunk mage dipstick". Sure they may have made great rp, even if i wonder how its rp to have a powerful warrior/mage halfling, but there was also alot bad stuff. ooc, killing sprees, powergamed archers turning everyone into clouds from above the shop, and so on.

The days today are from a view of roleplay and roleplay experience more adult and better than in the old days. The rp of these days has more...well..class.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:05 am

Beleive me, archery is pretty awesome. The range is now quite limited (no offscreen shooting

, I remember I used to hunt demons like that alone). Don't count on your bow having any parry though, and you'll only get 1-3 shots in before a warrior can close in on you so you'll be a support class (logically). BUT, from my experimentation its a formidable class most especially group combat and hunting. The only place reasonable for above ground attacking is the grey rose castle. There are no other places designed for it unless you count the people-eating-varshikar castle.