The magic monopol

[Faladron]

So finally, magic has been implemented to the game and firstly I want to thank everyone working for it, I truly acknowledge your effords.

But on the other hand, I want to deliver a complaint, to the whole comunity perhaps. It's about the way magic is being reintroduced.

I know things should be solved "in-game" and discussions lead to no result most of the time here on the boards, but I really feel that I have to state my opinion about the Academy of Magic on Gobaith and their behaviour.

They claim to be the source of all magic in Illarion, this might be fair and true, they might be the biggest school of magic in the world but does that justify the following:

Everyone, no matter whether he's been a mage for years, decades, or centuries (talking about characters now, mostly elves) has to start from the scratch, bowing to their rules and teachings, advancing through their system of study to regain his old wisdom.

Well don't you think this might be.. laughable and embarrasing for some old magicians who rather try to learn and find out about the changes themself instead of having to take classes? The 3000 year old elf mage taking lessons and scribbling furiously in creature lore class? Yeah right.. he will rather sit somewhere himself, studying books or making experiments to learn about the changes himself.

Furthermore I'd like to point out their behaviour on this thread here in the RPG section:

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=17148

Because they alone know how the (technical) aspects of magic work for the moment, they try to alter the roleplay of said person by calling her imposter and trying to convince her to learn magic the "only right way" their way, of course.

I find it ridicule that nobody else should be able to do research on magic, on his own and mayhaps eventually find out the same things about the new behaviour of the runes and other things as they did.

Just because they discovered the changes FIRST it doesn't mean that NOBODY ELSE is allowed to find it out on his own and everyone is forced to join them to learn magic.

Also their academy makes existing magic teaching facilities, I'm talking about the VMA in particular, obsolete because of said reasons.

If mages like Jeremy or Marie have to learn everything from their academy in order to teach their own students again, and their academy will remain on the island anyway, why should anyone bother to sign up for the VMA anymore if he could learn it at the source right away and perhaps even learn some more, things that have not been tought to the teachers of the VMA.

It's a great efford of those Lor-Angur Archmages to come to Gobaith themselves and start to teach, but their attitude towards others who do not follow their path and the lacking posibilities for people to find it out on their own rather than having to study under them are highly questionable.

I hereby officially complain about the way magic is introduced and the lack of possibilities to go your own way if you do not want to be a scholar of said academy.

[Kevin Lightdot]

so true you got me all emotional

[Fooser]

I agree,

Helping the VMA would seem like a reasonable choice to me, so that there would be at least two places teaching magic. Many non-Trollsbane towns are not doing very well, so it seemed like a valuable way to get some activity in Varshikar, but they did not capitalize on that.

but I dont know what else to say really because none of my characters are learning magic

[Dónal Mason]

Many of us are a little angry about this.

This is a big kick in the teeth to the VMA. An entire guild of mages having to learn from some enigmatic super mages from magical fantasy land? That must be so fun!

Right now it's a case of sucking up and kissing ass or not being able to use magic. There's only one route to go through for magic. Nitram wants magic ONLY to be learned via the academy. Good job Nitram, you're stifling possible RP, such as from rogue students from the academy teaching others, or characters experimenting on their own. Well done for stopping people playing the main aspect of the game because you don't want to see too many people using magic.

If you have a complaint, please refer to my avatar for instruction.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Yep, alsong as someone has done enough library reasearch he should be able to learn magic.

*complains*

[Nitram]

Yep, alsong as someone has done enough library reasearch he should be able to learn magic.

*complains*

Complain as much as you want. But i never will make a free learn system like we had befor the Char Wipe. Every second char was a mage. This was terrible. I hate it, and this will never happen again.

In any case. The reason i don't give the runes to the mages of the VMA was, that they only teach citizens of Varshikar. So this would be a advantage for Varshikar.

The reason for the actions agains Samantha Solay is, that she is not able, to teach the technical magic. In this case she just confuses the players. I didn't like this, but she may do her things. I never would learn from a "half-vampire" (Quote of the character informations side).

All the mages on this island lived a long time without magic. They get the magic back and everyone starts to complain. I can disable to magic as fast as is scripted it. If you wish this.

This really annoys me a little. Everyone asks when do we get magic? When do we get magic? And when the get magic, they start to complain about.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Theres the Illarion Community for you.

[Japheth]

Because they alone know how the (technical) aspects of magic work for the moment, they try to alter the roleplay of said person by calling her imposter and trying to convince her to learn magic the "only right way" their way, of course.

I agree that this was handled a little heavy-handidly, but overall I'm in favour of the new approach to making magic special and interesting again. The kick-in-the-balls of the VMA is quite unfortunate, but as soon as Jeremy regains his skills, I'm sure he can go back to teaching the citizens of Varshikar.

[Athian]

no one said a free magic system would have to be easy Nitram, but frankly this system of learning hasn't yet to introduce a magic system to the game. and yes i understand YOU hated the old system, but last time i checked this game wasn't about any one of us.
I didn't much agree with the way things were done in the old system either but, this is a monopoly. we are rping with character teachers, not npc teachers. what about the characters these teachers don't like, or refuse to teach, your forcing players out because the teachers have a bias. and since there is NO other way to learn you stifle there ability to learn. more over there are many of us wo are responsible enough with our characters to go about rping and learning on our own. but you punish all for the actions of some and thats really not fair.
I'm not saying that the magic school is a bad idea, nor am i saying it should be removed or anything of the sort, but it is the ONLY way to learn magic and thats very limited rp, because there are many characters that personality wise would never be in class with eachother or are solitary in there learning, but instead these same people are forced into this class just to learn magic.
This isn't a return of the magic system Nitram, this is a magic selection system, where gm's or PC's left in charge get to pick and choose those they find, worthy of learning magic. and as said groups like the VMA have rped there asses off only to get cut doewn by this new magic selection process. as are pretty much every other character wishing to learn magic. having only one way to learn something thats completely controlled by three characters is in no way a magic system. the dedicated people will do what they need to to learn magic again, but believe me, just because alot of us aren't saying anything doesnt' mean no one has noticed these things.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Well cant you just highten the old mages magery skills?

[Taylor]

I also have to post a small to medium size rant here.

I have noticed, that nearly the whole community hates this idea of introducing magic. I also have noticed that many people IC hate the sages for IC reasons.

About this "Sages are the source of power". No one beign should be able to emit or alter the mana pool, A divine hand should have been the step in, Not a stupid old crack-pot in his 300 years.

I also want to point out the way it's being eased in. If the mana pool had truely changed, then wouldn't the mages and Rune Guardians have been affected? feeling the change in the air? But instead we get these fools coming and saying that they are the source of magic. No warning at all. No chance the Role Play, Just like the Portal Quest. I have noticed that we are not able to do any magic, only the archmages are. I find this to be idiotic. If the Magic pool has become active, any should be able to tap into it's power. A Simple book, placed in the library without ANY warning would have done just that. I read all the time with Taylor, because i role play him as a Warlock-to-be. So he reads all magic books. In this way, only TRUE mages would have found out about magic, Not every little person that abandoned their Character to learn Magic. Just look at the Guild Board, people there that were true fighters, are now signed up to learn magic. I signed up with my only Mage, and played him to his character and got rejected, Nearly getting into a fight with the supped up Archmages just because for some reason they are the only people able to cast magic by some uber magical blocker.

I'm not saying that you guy's didn't do an awesome job making the system. I hear there's many new spells and i'm exstatic. But your execution of stuff was full of Flaws. If you do not take the mages away, Atleast make it available to all, so those that are Try and Fail mages, can atleast try their own path, before having to take your own.

If this benifits the entire community having the magic only available to the three archmages, Show me and i shall remove my rant. As i see right now, it's just a chance for those three to feel all powerfull and act like total assholes.

~Broc

[Djironnyma]

I like the system and way in generall, it is mostly better as the magic-learn-systems at past. But some criticel points:

1.) I think a important fault is taht actually only can learn magic how speak english. The leassons to become a mage are only in english.

2.)The secound thing is, that i dont find it great that there is only one school. e.g. my char would normaly not going to a school wehere necromancy is teached, but i have no altanative at the moment.

3.)Last but not least it is hard and a littel bit frustrating to play in this situation a mage like djironnyma how has x own scholars at the past, how was a master in his domain and who now must back to the beginners, start again from new.....

---

An und für sich mag ich das neue System sowie dessen Umsetzung, es ist wesentlich besser als alle bisherigen Magielernsysteme. Trotzdem einige Kritikpunkte:

1.)Ein großer Fehler ist es, das im Moment nur Magier werden kann wer Englisch spricht. Die Stunden, die man absolvieren muss um Magier zu werden, werden ausschließlich in Englsich abgehalten.

2.)Die zweite Sache ist der Mangel an Altanativen. Eine einzige schule finde ich einfach zu wenig. Um ein Beispiel zu nennen würde mein Char eigentlich auf keineSchule gehen an der Nekromantie gelehrt wird, jedoch fehlt es wie gesagt im Moment an altanativen.

3.)Zu guter Letzt ist es schwer und natürlich auch etwas frustrierend in dieser Situation einen Magier zu spielen wie Djironnyma, der schon x eigende Schüler hatte, ein Meister seines Faches war und nun wieder zu den Neulingen gehört, abermals von Forn beginnen muss...

[Misjbar]

This isn't a return of the magic system Nitram, this is a magic selection system, where gm's or PC's left in charge get to pick and choose those they find, worthy of learning magic.

I find the thing you say here very nifty. It forces people who want to be mages to roleplay, not just acquire it on their own, without any roleplay involved. Because that is how it often was in the old system.

[Nitram]

The first objective points...well.

to 1.) if someone isn't able to speak english we will try to do everything in german and english.

to 2.) This point is a start problem. This will change, when their are more teachers. I doubt that all will stay at this academy.

to 3.) The chars who have the past in illarion of a master mage, and the attributes to be a master mage, those surely can shorten this education.
Chars like Athian Corulas may have the past. But with the skills they have, they won't be able to do more then 1/3 of the spells.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Die ersten objektiven Punkte...gut.

zu 1.) Wenn jemand dabei ist der wirklich kein englisch versteht, werden wir versuchen das ganze in deutsch und englisch durchzuführen.

zu 2.) Das ist Anfangsproblem das ich auflösen wird, sobald die ersten Lehrer sind. Einige von denen werden die Schule sicher verlassen und eigene Wege gehen.

zu 3.) Die Charaktere die die Vergangenheit IN Illarion haben und die Attribute für einen Meister Magier. Diese können die Ausbildung sicherlich etwas abkürzen, wenn sie die Erzmagier darauf ansprechen.
Dazu zähle ich nicht Chars wie Athian Corulas. Er hat vielleicht die Vergangenheit, haber nicht die Attribute um mehr als 1/3 der Sprüche überhaupt zu wirken.

[Misjbar]

to 3.) The chars who have the past in illarion of a master mage, and the attributes to be a master mage, those surely can shorten this education.
Chars like Athian Corulas may have the past. But with the skills they have, they won't be able to do more then 1/3 of the spells.

Could you explain please? I mean...No one has magic skills yet.

[Athian]

yes but it's a system based on the bias of actual characters. i admit there's been some fun class rp, but you can't say that everyone never rped learning magic. again punishing all for the mistakes of some.

the system is good yes, the school is a good idea true, but it's still completely bias. If your teacher doesn' like you you can NEVER learn. because it's under the complete control of three characters. as much as it promotes rp, it changes the way our characters would really choose to be.

for instance Athian would not be caught dead in class if there was any other way. Athian is intelligent and smart enough to learn book wise, but firstly they aren't even teaching him anything he doesn't know. Athian's character type prefer's to 'feel' magic and learn instinctually. and as i warlock he really doesn't like the archmages themselves even though he shows proper respects. he would rather be out alone somewhere in meditation or training his mind and body, not sitting in a chair in a classroom.

this is the rp i would choose to do, if i weren't forced (mind you it is forced rp) to attend class for any measure of suscess. there is no longer choice of rp in magic. we MUST attend these classes to learn. the fact remains so no matter what other arguments you bring up.

[Misjbar]

to 2.) This point is a start problem. This will change, when their are more teachers. I doubt that all will stay at this academy.

Guess Athian has to wait then.

[Nitram]

Could you explain please? I mean...No one has magic skills yet.

I typed wrong. I'm sorry. I was talking about attributs like strength, intelligence, etc.

[Nop]

Time for a counter rant, folks.

I really can't say that I was in favour of the academy thingy from the beginning, but I find it utterly disgraceful to see people start whining like this after it has been in operation for a full two hours of lessons and you haven't seen anything yet.

Especially as most of the things you're ranting about aren't even confirmed truth but rather your own assumptions. I have talked to Nitram based on the same wrong assumptions - just in a more constructive way than the style you are demonstrating - and you need a few corrections.

1. There is no GM selection:
1a) nobody is excluded from the tuition, there are no fees and no restrictions.
1b) graduates from the academy will be able to teach magic. It's good old RP then.
2. actually, the plan is not for the supposedly experienced mages of old to be downgraded to novices again. If they'd go there and just try to RP experienced mages of old they might find a difference. It's just that so far I have seen almost nobody doing that.
3. Of course other people will find a way to magic other than the Academy. Nobody of the students has the ability to do anything yet. Why do you expect your freelancers to be faster than the learners with the direct tuition?

What would you suggest? Throw a bag full of runes at people and let the old chaos reign? Have lots of folks merrily throwing spells at each other that RP like anything but mages?

So here's the way I see it:

1. The academy is a great opportunity for roleplaying. Be it in the lessons if you're a serious pupil or selling off your newly gained knowledge behind the teacher's back if you're not.
2. The academy brings magic to the players with some style and I dearly hope for that playing an actual student of magic will give some people an idea of how to be a believable mage later in the game, not a spell-toting moron.
3. A general Academy open for all is much better than anything localized that puts restrictions on who they will teach.
4. I strongly dislike any player posing as a powerful archmage while actually being unable to work or teach any magic. I do not think that should be supported. If you disagree, I'll sell you some impenetrable armor. RPd of course, as my char lacks smithing skills and I don't feel like training him

Some people have invested a lot of work into enabling the magic. They are investing more into bringing it back into the game with style. Maybe you would have done it differently. But you didn't do the work. They did. So I figure it's also their call on how to do it!

Don't you realize at all that this is the opportunity for a lot of good RP and many interesting things to develop around the academy? Why don't you just go there and see how your char can get the best of it? You have been waiting for years for the magic to return. Why can't you just wait a few days more and see how it turns out?

[Duncan Orloff]

Wenn ihr sagt es geht euch so sehr ums RP, denke ich das Deutsche spieler die das englisch nicht gut beherschen, wie ich einer bin, ziemlich große nachteile haben beim erlernen der Magischen künste in der Akademie...

[Athian]

to 3.) The chars who have the past in illarion of a master mage, and the attributes to be a master mage, those surely can shorten this education.
Chars like Athian Corulas may have the past. But with the skills they have, they won't be able to do more then 1/3 of the spells.

are you trying to discoourage me with yet another system Bias Nitram. if you knhew anything about my character, it's that he was made to be balanced. even if he can't do eveyr spell the ones he can do will be practised to there limited, he would train hard each and everyday, no matter what.
but thanks for adding another litttle downside to my day there. very nice of you.

[Pendar]

Edit NOP beat me to it while i was posting this and actually said it better,

What we all need to step back and realize is that prior to this mage school magic had no real theory.
If athian or damien were feeling creative they may make up role-play theories about magic, how ever at core there was no unifying theories about magic.
What this school will do is create a "in-game" story for magic and send players back into the game actually equipped to teach the subject in a manner that builds role-play and the game setting as far as stories and theories.
At least if i in future play a rogue mage who does his runes backwards i will know what i am "doing" backwards.
I once heard one of the VMA say i like magic because it is fun...." a fair response if you do not have in game theory and exposure to "mystics and mystisim"
That is exactly the problem that will be fixed via this school the players attending will leave with information based on in game fact to teach and explain magic and its uses.
The teachers may be "painful" but they have taken people like kevin lightdot in because they have the ability. I personally wouldn’t teach the character to pick his nose, so it is not as if they have been biased or expected people to role-play with massive intellect.
If you cannot stomach the school be patient it is my understanding the teaching runes will appear in game in players hands in due time.
As such the VMA will in a matter of weeks or months and be teaching group again and all will be rosy. I would imagine the goal of the master mages is to pass around enough teaching runes around responsible active players and slowly fade into the back ground.
Brian

[Misjbar]

Wenn ihr sagt es geht euch so sehr ums RP, denke ich das Deutsche spieler die das englisch nicht gut beherschen, wie ich einer bin, ziemlich große nachteile haben beim erlernen der Magischen künste in der Akademie...

Samantha Meryadles (or whatever) has written german notes (Notizes). You can read up on those.

[Faladron]

I sincerely apologize for not having delivered "objective" arguments up to now Nitram, if that realy is your opinion. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to enlighten me what I did wrong for I tried to be as objective as possible (judged by my own perception).

And to add to your point 2, Nitram:

Tell me one logical reason why anyone would found or join another magic guild besides this academy, for they're the source and keepers of all magic. Even if you'd study hard and one day decide to turn your back on them, you'd still not be able to specialize or develop any own thoughts on magic, because they are the only ones right, they were right and they tought you everything you know and there still might be the chance that they haven't tought you everything, so why should anyone join an academy other than this one, nobody is content with only a share of what you might be able to learn.
Therefor this academy will stay around and it will stay the only place where one might learn magic, at least it'd be logical for me to go to those who know best rather than learn from people who've learned it from them anyway.
----------

Vielleicht kommt Punkt zwei nicht wirklich gut rüber auf englisch:

Sag mir einen logischen Grund warum jemand eine andere Magieschule gründen oder ihr beitreten sollte wenn die doch die Quelle und Behüter der Magie wie wir sie kennen sind. Du kannst noch so viel studieren und eines Tages beschließen, sie zu verlassen, aber trotzdem kannst du keine eigenen Theorien über Magie entwickeln oder dich spezialisieren weil sie ja die einzigen sind die die Wahrheit kennen, sie kannten, und dir alles beigebracht haben was du weißt. Außerdem besteht immer das Restrisiko dass sie dir doch nicht alles beigebracht haben, und du vielleicht doch lieber bleiben hättest sollen, weils ja sonst keine andere Möglichkeit gibt dich weiterzubilden.
Also warum sollte sich irgendjemand mit einem Bruchteil des Wissens dieser Akademie zufrieden geben und einer anderen Akademie als "DER QUELLE" beitreten?
Aus diesem Grund wird diese Akademie meiner Meinung nach die einzige bleiben. Warum soll ich nicht direkt von ihnen lernen und mich jemandem anvertrauen der es auch nur von ihnen gelernt hat, wenn mir beide Möglichkeiten offen stehen?

[Keikan Hiru]

I doubt the Archmages will be arround for ever, sooner or later they will shut down thier Academy and your Characters are again left alone in thier choice whom to join when you want to learn magic.

...
but seriously folks, you just don't give this attempt to reintroduce the magic to your characters world a chance, just because you feel that old characters should have gotten wildcards and free magic ?

If you don't think your character would/want to join this Academy, I am afraid you will have to wait a little longer until freelance teachers appear from the rank of the current Academy-Students.

[Pendar]

Tell me one logical reason why anyone would found or join another magic guild besides this academy, for they're the source and keepers of all magic

Perhaps because you enjoy studying with me one on one and I may have the teaching runes?
Perhaps because you find master Tyrus distateful
etc

Many mages i am sure are intent on getting there runes and getting away from these pompus arch mages.
My understanding of the rp theory was that the mana pattern had changed so the runes had changed. So really all these mages have over "us" is the runes.
I am sure some students are just there for the runes..
More over the information given out is actually of interest at least the history of the gods was, I have spent many hours with a translator to read up as much on illarion as possibe and still got some new facts out.
I think in a few months VMA and other magic orginisations will be going strong again and this will actually have been an enriching time for the game.
Brian

[Taylor]

Nop.

As for your 1a) statement. That is NOT true. They have refused three people i have seen so far. Rhi, Mairead, and Taylor. Each they said would make a Preist. Even though Taylor does not believe in gods. But they said that they were to young to join. Okay people. This is rather stupid. If a mage is 22 years old. THEY HAD TO HAVE STARTED EARLIER. They couldn't have turned 22 and was like "Holy shit, i have magical powers." They had to have been studying their whole. Life. As Rhi, Mai, and Taylor have. They are the only others than Athian, Marie, and jeremy i have heard that have done so. So before you say there is no GM selection, might want to look a bit closer, Since three people were down right REFUSED without any roleplay.

[Pendar]

Rhiannon was refused with good roleplay reason...
If you do not have the stats "inherent ability to cast magic" then training you would be futile yes.
The only people i have seen turned down are those who's character build will not allow them to be succesful mages.
Brian

[Kevin Lightdot]

How old is Taylor again?
Kevin in 14 and he got in...

[Nitram]

Chars who get a special rune, are able to give the the runes to others. On this way it will work. And chars will get this runes, when they reach a special grate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chars ist eine Bestimmte Rune haben, sind in der Lage alle anderen Runen weiter zu geben. So wird es funktionieren. Andere Chars bekommen diese Runen wenn sie einen bestimmen Rang erreicht haben.

Taylor: Tell me the persons, i tell you the RP reasons.