Some Feedback To the Creators

Fishnu Pervius · Post by **Fishnu Pervius** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:40 am

I was just re-reading through the "unimplemented features" list and I saw this. When starting in a new skill, you have to perform the action a few times in front of a master of this skill (player or NPC). I think this is a bad idea and shouldn't be implemented. It's really just uneccasary and would be an extremely annoying thing to have to do. Whatever happened to the idea of teaching yourself how to do something from scratch? Just my two cents

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:12 am

ummmm I disagree. I mean if it weren't for apprentices no skills as advanced as smithing would be passed on. Someone didn't just wake up in the middle ages and say I am going to figure out how to smith and a couple of days later he was pumping out chainmail. It was slowly accquired knowledge passed down through many generations through the process of apprenticing. I believe that most of the proffesions should be set up this way. As an alternative idea maybe the first step should be extremely hard to get through on your own, but if you are apprenticed you will gain some skill in a short time, maybe 10 times of smithing compared to 200 without apprenticing. Have fun!

Pocal · Post by **Pocal** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:25 am

Alexander wrote:Someone didn't just wake up in the middle ages and say I am going to figure out how to smith and a couple of days later he was pumping out chainmail. It was slowly accquired knowledge passed down through many generations through the process of apprenticing.

Then how did the very forst blacksmith learn the trade? Who was his master?

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:38 am

Who was the first computer programmer? A very unique man, no doubt.

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:40 am

I am sure that the very first smith never quite learned how to make chainmail or large blue plate mail and something tells me that a rainbow sword might be an skill that was passed down.

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:18 am

See, what probably happened is that lots of people tried smithing. They shared ideas, techniques and suchlike, perfected these techniques, passed them down to apprentices who also made up new techniques or learned them elsewhere and suchlike. Learning smithing completely alone would take a long, long time, and possibly only an elf would have the lifespan to make it effective.

Jori · Post by **Jori** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:57 pm

A dwarf MIGHT live long enough to do it too. In most sources they live to be between 500 and 1000 years on average.

Fishnu Pervius · Post by **Fishnu Pervius** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:33 am

Alexander wrote:ummmm I disagree. I mean if it weren't for apprentices no skills as advanced as smithing would be passed on. Someone didn't just wake up in the middle ages and say I am going to figure out how to smith and a couple of days later he was pumping out chainmail. It was slowly accquired knowledge passed down through many generations through the process of apprenticing. I believe that most of the proffesions should be set up this way. As an alternative idea maybe the first step should be extremely hard to get through on your own, but if you are apprenticed you will gain some skill in a short time, maybe 10 times of smithing compared to 200 without apprenticing. Have fun!

Let me explain my point of view a bit more. See, you are right when you say people don't just wake up and invent a new craft, but this is an island, and this island houses a rather closeknit community. A person can live on the island for 2 months, and if he hangs around the workshops alot, can go and teach himself to blacksmith, simply because he has seen other people do it a few times, or has heard people saying how to do it and what materials are needed. If he walks past a workshop, and hears a dwarf ask another dwarf to lend him a piece of coal and a chunk of ore, he is going to know that you need coal and ore, same with the tools, a dwarf may ask the other dwarf if he has an extra mould that he could sell, then the person would know that you need a mould, and hopefully out of comon sense, he could go into a quiet workshop and figure out how to do it on his own without a master to watch him and say "Yes, you are doing it right."

Pocal · Post by **Pocal** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:40 am

It's called "Trial and Error" much the same way things were first invented. People tried until they got it right.

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:49 am

I guess I just have think less of the giving nature of master smiths. I couldn't really see a smith not getting upset with someone who is just watching them to pick up their secrets. Were it a real situation I think that there would be no public smith areas in the first place. You would have to walk into someone's shop and stare at them while they were doing their work in the back room. Call me negative, but I just don't see that kind of cooperation in a midevil smith shop. As for being able to figure out what to use a mould for...I could see that. "I have molten steel and a mould, what do I do now?" That would be common sense, but I was talking more about the actual smithing of items. It would be MUCH harder to just see a platemail and try to make it instead of having a Master make one infront of you explaining what to do as he goes. Maybe kindof like the suggestion for the magic system. You could be able to make items only when you both have the appropriate skill level and when a master shows you how to do it, maybe after completing a quest for him/her.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:59 am

I think when you here him say hand me the coal, that would be like watching a master or having a master watchh you. Also, you think it would be annoying to have to have a master watch you for every skill you get. how many do you get? it's agaisnt the rules to be good at everything. My guy has like 4 skills, and only uses 2. that's getting 4 guys to come watch you do your skill, that's it for the rest of the game. I rest my case

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:04 am

First off it isn't against the rules to be good at something. *shakes his head* It is against the rules to play with the sole purpose of being good at something. If you play and role play as well as train for a skill it wouldn't be considdered powergamming. Anyway if I was roleplaying a smith I would think my character wouldn't be bored of having many apprentices. I would think that he/she would be thrilled to recieve such an honor. In addition if you are being sent on quests to get the skills then I think it might be hard to turn that into powergamming.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:13 pm

IMHO this should be for all the "Hard" (Artisian) skills, such as carpentry ect.. but not for chopping trees or mining...

THank you

A

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:13 pm

no, not power gaming, I meant like being perfect in every skill or really good. I heard that's against the rules some where, maybey I'm wrong

P.S,
my guy has tons of aprentices, they don't mind, I like it, it makes good rp

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:08 am

Sort of. I can't think of a character concept where one would be a master of everything, but someone could suprise me.

Jori · Post by **Jori** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:11 am

Situation where you could be really good at everything:
You are thousands of years old (so probably an elf). You have been on the run from some evil force or person all your life and to avoid them you must hide yourself as a person of a certain trade. When you are found, you go to a new town, start a new trade, etc. And so, over the millenia, you have become very good at dozens of crafts and trades.

Chances of this happening of course arent very good...
I kind of got the idea from a book too although I changed it from exactly what was in the book of course. The book is called Polgara the Sorceress by David Eddings.

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:49 am

-suprised

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:51 pm

Of course then Rping around arriveing on Illarion with out any skill at all is going to pose you a problem.
I have found it hard enough to have a warrior arrive and rp around him being weak as a babe for first few weeks

So although creative idea and good thinking it fails to explain it for Illarion purposes I suppose?
Brian

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:52 pm

That's why it's always easy to play a wastrel, beggar, scholar, diplomat, retired soldier (getting rusty) and so on. =)

Fishnu Pervius · Post by **Fishnu Pervius** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:56 pm

But chances are, most people won't want to be some skill-less person, chances are they will want to get some skills and go do things

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:00 am

Thats what comes next

Pendar for example arrived on the island a bard who had never touched a weapon before.
Bard, fun to rp but at that time had no skills associated with it. So it gave the character a set of rp skills and back ground.
What is harder is to have a character who's story is finding no one worthy on the main land I have come this island to challenge the warriors, I am a master swordsman.
Trying to rp any character from day one as adept is a true challenge and often goes horribly wrong.
Brian

Fishnu Pervius · Post by **Fishnu Pervius** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:33 am

Yes, it sounds like it would be, you'd have to be able to train very quickly to roleplay a character like that.

Salesh Ssshak'rr · Post by **Salesh Ssshak'rr** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:31 am

What is harder is to have a character who's story is finding no one worthy on the main land I have come this island to challenge the warriors, I am a master swordsman.
Trying to rp any character from day one as adept is a true challenge and often goes horribly wrong.

I have experience in this... it went almost horribly wrong... in order to play that kind of character you probably have to powergame and not RP at all untill he actually is at that skill... which I found kind of moraly wrong (yes I do have morals) thus, the noble gaurd of Varshikar that didn't have to prove himself that often and then the switch to... the other version (sorry if you don't really understand... you new people)

P.S. Being this is feedback to the GM's I really like the idea of the new fighting system.... now if we could upgrade the magic system like that one post in the old proposal board brought up (the one with all the cool spells) we would be set, but otherwise *TWO THUMBS UP**