question

[Dónal Mason]

Hadrian is on the test server, where they test things, like the new magic system. We're not really allowed to tell you about it.

[Cain Freemont]

It is not implemented in the Real Server yet... so no we can't divulge information..

Not even then... depends on the info. anyway

Well it'd be nice to know something.

1) Take the fun away
2)In case they change it

1) It doesn't take the fun away for me. It'd be more exciting to know something of what was going on.
2) What does this have to do with anything? If they change it, oh well. If not, then I can expect something seemingly great.

Edit:
Donal: I remember being on the test server once or twice a long time ago.. oh well. So a handful of you know what's going on, get to say things like "ITS gonna be GREAT" and then laugh because we don't know what is going on. Too much secrecy around here, always has been.

[Garett Gwenour]

Well if they told us commoners then they wouldn't be so special on the test server ... Let them feed their egos about knowing things they can't tell us serfs .. Its okay.

[Dónal Mason]

Hey, I wasn't the one who made that rule. The development team did, so your claim that we won't tell you because we have inflated egos is completely unfounded.

[Cain Freemont]

I just think its lame that they get to basically rub it in people's faces about things that are very likely to be implemented (not many Illarion suggestions are even looked at, so if one is being tested, its damn likely). You people get to hint at things that are going to supposedly be spectacular, then you won't say anything to prove your point, or even encourage your point. Its bull.

[Quinasa]

I think that the people on the test server should just shut up about it. Its one thing to say "Good things are coming" but its another thing to boast every day that you know something others don't. It just makes your stupidity shine through. So, test server people: try saying "Good things are coming" or something along those lines, no "I'm on the test server and I know whats coming, treat me high and mighty". You know who you are. Everyone is equal here, so don't act better than everyone else because you sent a PM before they did.

Jaime

[Garett Gwenour]

Hadrian, it is because you have played this game for less then four months, you lack a lot of things more experienced players have. And you have terrible grammer and spelling skills. The first month or two of you being here was just spam inwhich you proposed several hundred proposals that we have all seen before.
That is why it boggles my mind your on the Test Server.

[Cain Freemont]

terrible grammer and spelling skills.

>.>


But yeah.. that is very disheartening. If anyone had e-mailed me about something like this, or had I known, I would have signed on immediately, just so I could laugh at people and stroke my own ego. Well, actually, I wouldn't even tell people about what we're doing on the test server. Either that or I'd tell people exactly what's going on, since everyone has the right to know.

[Dónal Mason]

Then talk to the development GMs. I have already told you, the players on the test server do not make these rules.

[Cain Freemont]

Then talk to the development GMs. I have already told you, the players on the test server do not make these rules.

You say that as if the staff actually pays active attention to its players nowadays. Is this true? Or is that classified because its being tested as well?

[Llama]

since everyone has the right to know.

If you knew what was coming... than it wouldn't be fair.. and it would be asking you to powergame to be able to get the nicer spells..

2) If I told you that there would be a spell to allow you to do something, but they remove it.. and you liked the idea, it would be dissappointing to say the least... As it is, no harm done

3) You will know it is in, when its implemented

4) Information like the spells and combinations mustn't be given at all costs...

5) There is no other information to be told...

PS: I will ignore the comment on grammer and spelling... just remember that my native language isn't English... and I'm not scripting where any slight mistake will cause an error...

What IS wrong with my grammer? This is a forum, not a story

[Fooser]

4) Information like the spells and combinations mustn't be given at all costs...

Oh yes, the old "fool the player" approach. If someone is playing a mage character, why should they be delayed by technicalities? GM's and Staff always say this is the best way to go (how has that been working out anyways?). Fool the character, not the player.

[Cain Freemont]

since everyone has the right to know.

If you knew what was coming... than it wouldn't be fair.. and it would be asking you to powergame to be able to get the nicer spells..

2) If I told you that there would be a spell to allow you to do something, but they remove it.. and you liked the idea, it would be dissappointing to say the least... As it is, no harm done

3) You will know it is in, when its implemented

4) Information like the spells and combinations mustn't be given at all costs...

5) There is no other information to be told...

PS: I will ignore the comment on grammer and spelling... just remember that my native language isn't English... and I'm not scripting where any slight mistake will cause an error...

What IS wrong with my grammer? This is a forum, not a story

No. A very select few actual players being allowed to know every little detail and the rest of us being screwed over and in the dark about everything is what isn't fair.

2) I wouldn't be disappointed. I'd appreciate knowing what's going on.

3) That's an arrogant statement, for which there is no other response than "don't be a jerk"

4) Again, that's more of a stroke of one's own ego than anything else. There's no reason to not give out information like combinations and spells. Obviously if you're going to need a certain amount of skill to cast a spell, then it doesn't really matter if a person knows how to combine the spells or not. Seriously, just keep pulling the wool over the players' eyes. That way we CAN'T PLAY THE GAME LIKE IT IS.

5) Doesn't mean we should be withheld from information that there is out there.

[Llama]

Personally, I won't touch magic once it is implemented... because I already know too much and I don't wish to gain an unfair advantage...

Giving out the combinations is this same as telling a player what materials he needs to use to craft.. if you find someone In Game who wishes to let you get a foothold over him, so be it...

Also with regards to combinations, I think the GMs will find an interesting way for you to get them [I THINK.. i don't know]

Half the fun of gaining is because YOU did it, not someone told you how to...

2) What you must know till now is : they are working on magic at the moment.. that is all; its not like the details are going to help you at this stage

3) Why ruin a surprise...

4) See un-numbered above

5) The information is not 'out there'.. it is private..

[Cain Freemont]

Personally, I won't touch magic once it is implemented... because I already know too much and I don't wish to gain an unfair advantage...

Giving out the combinations is this same as telling a player what materials he needs to use to craft.. if you find someone In Game who wishes to let you get a foothold over him, so be it...

Also with regards to combinations, I think the GMs will find an interesting way for you to get them [I THINK.. i don't know]

Half the fun of gaining is because YOU did it, not someone told you how to...

2) What you must know till now is : they are working on magic at the moment.. that is all; its not like the details are going to help you at this stage

3) Why ruin a surprise...

4) See un-numbered above

5) The information is not 'out there'.. it is private..

God.. enough of this numbering crap. No one needs to prioritize their arguments. Just post regularly, not in a way that shows you're in the test server.

To do something right, you need to know how to do it. The fun is not in not knowing how to do something and having to figure it out entirely on your own (which is bullshit because that's been done to us so many times before with the most obscure things), its in gaining the skill. The fun isn't in solving the mystery, its in playing the game. Your entire post was full of arrogance.

You won't touch magic after its been implemented because it would give you some kind of advantage? Yeah, right. I honestly doubt that. So what happens then, when you've tested magic, and a newer fighting system, and new crafting systems? Will you stop playing the game, perhaps?

We have every right to know the technical side of things, so that we can better roleplay the situation. To know details is to allow the expounding of even more possibilities. To be kept in the dark is to limit us to basic things.

[Llama]

"...the fun is gaining the skill"

That is powergaiming... and anyway creating something is just moving your mouse and clicking.. this way the player has to do something as well...

If I test a new fighting and crafting.. i will not take advantage of it in any way. I KNOW that i can find out which items I use to make planes... but i dont look for them; I wish to have to think my way out of it.

What possibilities are you looking for? Ok so you know there is a spell that does something... now what? You can powergame to get the skill.

The game is very open to abuse, the players must stop it, just because we have greater responsibilities to keep quiet... You could ask a carpenter "I can make ****; what will I learn next"...

Also my posts aren't full of arrogence of any kind.

[Devrah Liioness]

Hadrian, just shut up for today please. You are too arrogant, and anyway, the forums aren't meant for back and forth arguing.

[Dónal Mason]

Hadrian, I don't believe you. First you said you didn't spam, and now this. Even I have to say you're pretty arrogant.

[Garett Gwenour]

Again, he amazes me.

[Mempriclus]

Actually I'd disagree on some points.

Instantly knwing all the combinations and spells would quite frankly be boring, and a complete let-down. My character has spent the greater part of his existance talking (moaning) about the loss of magic and much of his roleplay is centered around the uncovering of those secrets.

At the moment thats refined to superficial knowledge and such, but when the new magic system is implemented I would be dissappointed if there was a huge list of spells and there combinations that went with it. My character would miss out on all the roleplay that could be centred around uncovering the runes and sorting out thier uses and what spells can be acheived with them.

Half the fun of a mage character is being the scholar, gathering knowledge and performing experiments. It would be no fun if there was a pre produced list because that would mean firstly, there would be no mystery, you say theres no fun in mystery, but I totally disagree, mystery is what makes magic so alluring and fun to work with. And secondly, it would mean that I didnt have to make my own list, I couldnt correspond with different mages collating what each of them had learned, and thus I would miss out on more rp. Thirdly, it means everyone knows everything, thats just not the way magic is done, magic is secretive by its very nature, and so is the infomation about it. There would be no big question mark as without knowing how many spells there are one would never know if there was more to work on, if there was that one elusive spell that I could be the first to learn.

In essence, telling everyone about everything to do with magic would not only spoil alot of rp moments, ditract from the mystery of magic and likens to giving someone the answers to the crossword before you give them the crossword. Its just nonsense and spoils all the fun.

And if anyone actually manages to make sense of that long, and rather unplanned rant, congratulations.

EDIT : It seems that in the time ive taken to write my rant, other developments have occured. Ho hum, I suppose the point still stands.

[Ziel Oden]

Hadrian, i PMed you, i told you on threads that the this moment would soon come. You've ignored every blunt warning i've given you.

[Cain Freemont]

"...the fun is gaining the skill"

That is powergaiming... and anyway creating something is just moving your mouse and clicking.. this way the player has to do something as well...

If I test a new fighting and crafting.. i will not take advantage of it in any way. I KNOW that i can find out which items I use to make planes... but i dont look for them; I wish to have to think my way out of it.

What possibilities are you looking for? Ok so you know there is a spell that does something... now what? You can powergame to get the skill.

The game is very open to abuse, the players must stop it, just because we have greater responsibilities to keep quiet... You could ask a carpenter "I can make ****; what will I learn next"...

Also my posts aren't full of arrogence of any kind.

You obviously have no idea what powergaming truly is. Your idea of it is much watered-down in comparison to what I've seen in the past. "The fun is in gaining the skill" means going through the process of practicing the combinations, while roleplaying with the application of the skill itself. Jesus, do you need everything spelled out for you? You (as well as some other people) seem to think that practicing a skill by yourself is powergaming. Pull the stick from your ass and please look at the possibilities, rather than just classifying everything into two very general categories.

If you wish to have to think your way out of it, then why are you on the test server?

Yes, the game is very open to abuse. I'd like to think that most of us are better than that though, unlike what you seem to think. People who are on the test server should be people who actually have faith in the other players, not those who think the information should be with-held, for fear of abuse of the game mechanics. That's just stupid. One way or another, people are going to find out the combinations. Knowing all the aspects right away allows all forms of roleplay, which brings me to my next point:

Mempriclus: I agree with you to an extent, but think of this: You can roleplay your character re-learning much easier if you know which combinations to use (because you can intentionally use the wrong ones for effect). Not only that, but you can roleplay on a more dramatic level, because you would know what combinations are supposed to do. So many more doors are opened when knowledge isn't with-held.

Without knowing, what do you think is the first thing mages are going to do? They are going to practice every single combination until they compile a list, something that will take a day at max. Their reasoning? Because they want to have it for future reference. I bet you that many people will do that. I'd do that too, because I genuinely believe that its important to know these things first.

[Shallow_Graves]

Hadrian, i PMed you, i told you on threads that the this moment would soon come. You've ignored every blunt warning i've given you.

A spammers support group I am touched...
Spam anonymouse it works if you dont click send.....

[Shallow_Graves]

Inherently the system is flawed the TS was never meant to be spoken of at all. That would have done away with this entire issue. The reasons I can see for keeping it "secrative" is that if we start selectively shareing information some people will know the rune combinations some wont. Some will know what armor is best some will not etc etc.
I am guessing that is the reason for the secrative nature
Enough said ?
This community has made huge steps forward with information shareing look at the how to craft where to sell thread. There are really very few secrets now.
I am sick of hearing about PGing truly, since the new client we have had one case of PGING An earlier post explains how it was done.

One case and thats all how ever as soon as some one excelles spends there time in game works there butt off some people say PG. We have a skill cap we have a set time it takes to wear off. As such Pging is a term we should all drop unless we can point out direct client abuse. Yes logging on training logging of is perhaps abuse. How ever i know the skilled characters and i cannot think of one currently who does that.
Thats my say anyway.

[Faladron]

The secrets of, let's say magics, shouldn't been laying around freely, that's for sure.
Would you realy roleplay your character that he gains insight and learns gradually over a longer period of time allthough OOC you already know all combinations there are?
Maybe some of you say yes, but there might always be people who run around and show off knowing "everything".

On the other hand there are some basics every player should know (technical issues). It's helping nobody if a Newbie is being left alone and starts crying because he can't chop a cherry tree with a hatchet and nobody wants to spoil that he should use a saw for that, or the detail that you have to hold scissors and a needle in your hands when you want to tailor something. There are some technical mechanics one wouldn't imagine or be able to think about logically because it simply couldn't be implemented any better into the client at the present time.
Also the part of "cooking" by using a cooking spoon in your hand on a campfire while holding a bucket filled with water in your belt.

We're not MacGyvers running around thinking "Wait I got this...rock and... uh... a stick! I'll craft a plate armor now!"

And some of the commands and things you have to do to achieve or craft something are... odd... and not something that would cross your mind so easily. "Of course I'll just place an apple on farmlands and water it to make it sprout"

Or the missing link to obtain green dye using a bucket of water, cabbage a mortar and...? I haven't figured that out yet.

Some of the game mechanics can be utterly frustrating if you don't know the exact technical procedure to do something (I recall the smelting of gold using a small wooden shovel and a glass oven thing).
I don't say "Make those things more realistic" for it's nonsense.
You can always roleplay and #me your actions properly, caring less than nothing for the technical part and just roleplay to do it like your character would, no matter which keys you have to press and which things you have to combine in what sort ever, but some basic things shouldn't be kept as "secrets" as they are at the present time.

What motivation is it for a player to start a character who'll earn himself money as a tailor but then being struck back by the fact "Hmm, I got leather, thread and a needle but it isn't working", or other similar examples with other crafts.

I don't say give detailed descriptions like "Go to XY say AB to KY then go back to CD and you'll get QZ" but show everyone the ropes to the basics of a craft somewhere, to add a little insight into the game mechanics and the technical part of how to do something so we can focus better on the roleplay part.

[Cain Freemont]

The secrets of, let's say magics, shouldn't been laying around freely, that's for sure.
Would you realy roleplay your character that he gains insight and learns gradually over a longer period of time allthough OOC you already know all combinations there are?
Maybe some of you say yes, but there might always be people who run around and show off knowing "everything".

In that entire speech, you touched down on the issue of discussion maybe twice. The secrecy issue is a big concern with me, mainly because if no general players are meant to know something, then certainly no players in any manner should. And vice versa, any players that are given such information should mean that this is available to all players. There should be no bias there, even if the people there are 'trustworthy' or promise they won't take advantage of what they know. How can they not take advantage of what they know? Its the "knowing" part that is the problem and if they are to with-hold that information from other players, they are clearly advantaged, which is just unfair to everyone else. Now I'm not here to discuss stupid, burned-out old topics like "well its not fair, so deal with it" or "yeah, its not fair, so change it." I just think that we as a community have the right to such information that is priviledge only to a select few fellow players.

Would I really roleplay my character as gradually learning magic even if I knew all the combinations? Yes, I would. And this is where a big problem comes into play; lack of trust. You say things like "there might always be people who run around knowing "everything." However, we as players should have the choice to play an incredibly wise sage, or the learning apprentice, not the staff. The game is built around the choices you make, not what the staff is feeding you through a tube. Why must it be forced on us to take one of the pre-determined routes? You might as well just make classes, base our stats around which class we choose, give us a few spells between certain different classes, and charge us 15 dollars a month to play the game, because that is what Illarion is slowly turning into on its current path of lack of choice.

Shallow_Graves: The 'revealing' of the test server is not as big a thing as you might think. A lot of the older players knew about it as well, and I certainly won't let the fact that I knew of the test server make me keep quiet. This is an issue that needs addressing, otherwise I don't think I would be speaking of it right now. I mean, honestly... I'm rarely here as it stands. But I do know how the game and staff works. I have a very long-term, firsthand experience with that.