Problems with the new system of dying trees

[Llama]

Didn't know where to post this...

The problem is.. cherry trees die if you take too many branches.. however.. no cherry tree has cherries on it apparently... so none can be replanted

The main problem is this: a new carpenter will require more material.. so will kill the tree faster; as failure loses the materials themselves.. more trees are cut... as the food level decreases from work; the fruit is eaten, and less is replanted... in the end... there will be few trees; and expensive goods

[Delakaniam]

It's true that most of the cherry trees seem to have gone barren. But some of them still have cherries on them, here and there. You'll just have to look for them, they shouldn't be too hard to find.

(Of course De'am would know where cherries still are . *laughs*.)

[Misjbar]

That is your problem mister Hadrian. I absolutely loathe the fact people are massgathering branches. I think this system is great, so it stops people from camping the lovely cherry that USED to be there above the cross.

Whenever I needed some RP, guess where I headed? And, also your. and other carpenters, problem. You should support foresters a little bit. Try to convince them to plant more trees close to town. *shrugs* So is life.

[Nop]

The cherry draught was caused by a wrong value in the database. I fixed it and they should regrow soon (after the next server reload)

As for missing cherries: Replant them!

[Llama]

the only cherry trees i know have cherries on them.. are surrounded by other trees so you cant reach them...

How can you replant what has no cherries...

And it is inevitable that many branches are used... you sell handles in bulk.. no-one buys just ONE

[Hermie]

Either way it's still strange that in their peak an apple or charry tree will only contain one single fruit. Don't know if anything could be done about it though. Maybe you could open a tree like a bag and it would display a certain number of fruits, and the fruits would multiply at a certain rate until the bag is full.

Kind of like how you get plants in Morrowind.

I have no idea how it would be implimented, I'm just opening up a suggestion.

[Llama]

The biggest problem...

Carpenters need a staple way to get money... this means NPCs who almost always buy things...

What do NPCs buy?

Axe handles... 1 copper each... you end up killing all the trees for it

Shields ... you need ingots... few people sell them anymore because of the new system

Bows... if your and elf and your lucky enough to find Elinas with cash... also you need THREAD, which tailors need more now

[Gabon Corad]

all of that is good because in real life people are not compeating against manufactures who are making the same product, people are fighting for supplies and workers, the workers are the worrior who collect the thread, the ingot makers are smiths, and not all the prices are not always what the manufacture wont. my advice is higher a smith, and/or a worrior choose your type of carpendry and stick to it. if you can find a worrior then make bows, if you can find a smith maby trade him ingot for axe handles. there are very many ways to get the items you need and there not as difficult as you think...i know for a fact gabon is up for orders on insides the trick is to ask arround and MAKE FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES

[Llama]

There are too few smiths.. because the tools are costly... and all of them need all the ingots they have...

[Galim]

Gabon, the existing smithes don't need handles, they often have more than enough, and there are not much of them. and to higher fighters for thread and smithes of ingot is too expensive. and a smith won't sell his iron, he use it on his own. smithes just tell you that they can sell you melting tools and that you can melt iron on your own, thats all.

[Jori]

@Hadrian
Maybe you should try selling to PLAYERS instead of NPCs all the time. A player buys things at MUCH MUCH MUCH higher prices than NPCs as long as the items are decent quality. So say, for example, You sell 5 shields to an NPC. If you sold those to players, you could probably get 5 times as much for one as long as it is good quality. This way you would make as much for ONE shield as you NORMALLY would for 5. And about getting the resources for things (such as ingots for shields) well, lots of dwarves seem to be a bit greedy so you could either
a) buy the resources at outrageous prices OR
b) get the tools to make your OWN ingots (or whatever else you need).

[Gro'bul]

That is, if anyone bought shields.

[Galim]

@ Jori
you never read what we written and never understood it.


which players buy the shields? tell me? which players buy the bows? tell me that? which players buy your less good shield or bows when they can get better ones from the better carpenters ingame? if they buy shields at all. think about that.

[Ellaron]

I disagree with b). Say I'm a carpenter who wants to make something that requires a smithed item. So now I become a smith and work as one until I get enough skill to make the item. But of course this means I need iron and coal. So now I become a miner as well. I don't want to do this. I want to stay a carpenter.

[Erart Ridoc]

Buy Iron
Buy Wood (Maybe)
Buy Smithed Items.

To many people are becoming Carpenter Smiths, Or Baker Carpenters, Or Tailor Smiths and any other combination.

Stick to your skill people, Stick to your skill. Erart buys tons of iron, not only does it give him a bartering tool with smiths without iron it also alows for the creation of shields, and people do buy shields its just there are few and I normally get them before others do.

I understand how newer players wish to be a jack of all trades but that gets boring. If you stick to one money making skill it allows for a much more fun time, because now you have to interact to trade for things you need.

[Ellaron]

Having said that Erart it's easier for smiths because they can sell their stuff much more easily and for higher prices. Tailors can sell their stuff as well. Carpenters on the other hand have a much harder time of it.
To buy raw materials you need money, to get money you need to sell things, to sell things you need to have made some and to make some you need raw materials.... You get the idea, it's even worse now you lose materials on failed attempts.
It's easier for people who have already mastered their craft but beginners have a hard time.

[Llama]

[quote="Galim]
which players buy the shields? tell me? which players buy the bows? tell me that? which players buy your less good shield or bows when they can get better ones from the better carpenters ingame? if they buy shields at all. think about that.[/quote]

Personally i only ever sold ONE bow to a player... and he was a total newbie who didn't know anyone else...

Also regarding shields... few people buy them; they all use two swords or double axes.. as you can parry with them as well... had shields been the olnly parrying weapon, it woud be a different story...

Anyway who sells shields for 100 coins each? [referring to the 5 times the cost to players]

[Erart Ridoc]

Smiths have to now contend with losing 4 iron ignots for a failed attempt at making some armor. And I can use 4 ignots to make 2 shields and sell them. So smithing is much harder than you think

And no you dont need money to buy things, I got all my smelting tools off salathe for a trade in handles. Trade your wares

Edit I have sold many shields for 100 coin each, most go for round 80 though

[Galim]

Erart, thats the reason Salathe don't need handles anymore . And Durin get his handles from Faladron. Not much space to trade with them as a non so good craftmen, thats the problem. and you can't offer their quality, so you have more less chance.

[Erart Ridoc]

Actually it was only like 30 axe handles or something, so I got a good deal

[Llama]

Now with the item loss.. the only ones who have a large supply of handles for sale.. are the better carpenters.. the other new ones have so much item loss.. they dont even bother...

Then we're on wondering where the trees are going

EDIT > Durin gets the handles for Faladron... did we mention he is the 2nd best carpenter on the island?

Everyone else gets them from Erart or thalodos.. leaving the newbies no space.

[Erart Ridoc]

I got a good suggestion. Overcome and Adapt

In otherwords quit complaining and deal. Each thing implemented has a tremendous amount of rp surrounding it. Like the dissapering trees, now alls a new carpenter has to do is find a nice untouched grove of cherry trees and wam they are way ahead of the game.

Also do you know how hard it is to tell the quality of a very large order of handles or something else. I have to go through it 5 times just to make sure I have it all correct, a sneaky carpenter would toss some bad handles in with the good ones.

Look you all have it easier now than when Me, Faladron, and Thal first started out, because then everything required a whole new aproach because you had no idea what materials were needed to make it. Now you all know that information easily, its your problem to find it.

You know what we did? Axe handles to Mugush, we would camp out next to Mugush waiting for people to buy grain or something and swoop in before anybody else got the copper, now it should be easier for you to get copper from Mugush because their are few people selling to him and alot buying.

Find a way to deal with it

Edit Oh yeah I dont suggest camping out next to Mugush, Gm's would take over his body and kind of hint that we should be selling so much, but every now and again is good

[Llama]

Easy for you to say isn't it.. now that you'r at the top.. had you stopped taking over guilds as the supplier.. or taking bulk orders... the mess would be less..

Also please STICK TO THE TOPIC... we were supposed to be discussing the trees dying and subsequent lack of materials.. not lack of buyers

[Erart Ridoc]

Yes you hit it exactly right, Now I am at the top, I didnt start at the top did I? Actually I started at the bottom with Fal and Thal at the top and I worked my way up. Why dont you do the same? Its because becoming the person at the top takes more than just being the best, it takes letting people know your the best

And there isnt a lack of trees, just a lack of trees close by, as the song says "These shoes were made for walking, and walking is what they'll do"

[Ellaron]

Erart you got to the top when it was much easier than now. When each raw material was a guaranteed item. When trees could be hacked for eternity and still stay healthy. You know it, I know it and all at the top know it. Yes you had to figure out how but guess what, we do again as things have changed once again.
As for the tree shortage I think tree planting might have been sorted so more trees will be planted.

[Erart Ridoc]

Hmmm yes, I got to the top when insides cost 3 copper each, when you had to buy tools from the elven trader so that ment you had to get an elf along with you.

You all have a much easier time to get to the top because raw materials are easier to get, iron and insides have went down in price, wood can be easily chopped if you go to the right areas, there are cherry trees in abundance around TB your just to lazy to actually leave the walls to get them. And seriously not many things have changed when it comes to making wood items since I first started out. Actually its pretty much staid the same so you cant bitch about that.

See you have it easier to get to the top but your not willing to walk that extra bit, you just want it to be even easier, well guess what, the craftsmen that are willing to work harder than you to get better will get vastly better and you will still be stuck saying there are to few trees.

And about the raw materials being guarenteed, if you actually look around on some posts you find that you learn when you suceed and when you fail gm's have pointed that out on quite a few posts. Also if you look I was one of the people asking that the raw materials be used up when you fail long before I got to the top, so dont use that excuse on me. Which is all it is an excuse to whine and complain how its so hard to be a good craftsmen, I bet if I started a brand new character I could become as good as Erart and have his amount of coin before you do.

Look people this game is about rping, you must look at the situations that are presented to you and play along and not only play along but use them to your advantage.

[Galim]

I bet if I started a brand new character I could become as good as Erart and have his amount of coin before you do.

No wonder, powergaming guarantee that easily.

[Pendar]

There will always be some one better than you,
This is why i dont get into powergameing debates or not. This game is not played competatively nor do we all get to be the ideal "image" of our character.
How ever with good rp and a little imagination one can get damn close.
When i stopped playing Illarion as competatively as one might other mmorpgs i found it a lot easier to relax and enjoy the process.

As to Erart being on top, what ever I personally rp so i will buy from a friend or crafter who's rp inspires me in the moment. If Erart happens to be useing the right #me or rp in the moment that would make pends believe his staffs were worth owning, its sold. Same for any one,
pends is no carpentar as long as it doesnt rot in his hands he cant see the different between excellent and good,,,new or slightly used etc
Brian

[Luincale]

Hm, well, I haven't been playing long enough so I will be keeping my mouth shut and learning perspectives along the way. Then I'll offer my opinion to the side topic here, but as for the trees...

I think the idea is wonderful because I (and Luin, probably more so) have gotten very tired of walking in to Troll's Bane from the docks in seeing complete devestation of the apple grove at the south end. I've chopped those trees before too, but I try to be reasonable about it. Skipping every other tree or so. I think some of the problems may be solved later on. I'm sure in time it won't take entire trees to make arrows, bows, or plates. Even so, Carpenters will now have some restrictions like other crafts seem to. (Luin is a carpenter, btw). Smithing needs iron and iron takes time to get; tailoring takes thread and unless you want to become a warrior too, it requires a lot of funding (which in many cases is still 3 coppers a piece I thought). All crafts have some annoying qualities that characters must learn to work around. So to the GM's, thanks for a dynamic gameplay!

But about the problem at hand, I hear we can plant trees but I know that we are having trouble discovering how. Once that knowledge gets out, there shouldn't be a problem. I had figured the cherries weren't there because of seasons, bugs, or something, but if cherries do stop growing I am sure Luin will be happy to sell the cherries he has collected at inflated prices *cackles evilly and is only joking*.

Once Luin finds out how to plant, I'm sure he willl begin replinishing trees he finds he has had some hand in destroying - and those he has not.

[Ellaron]

@Erart I've run two chars, one under the "old" system, the one you were on, and the new. The old was easier. As for your point about gaining skill from a failed attempt as well as a successfull one it's still worse now than then, not that skill is the point it's money that's the problem.
"Old" system one branch 5 fails 1 success = much exp and one copper.
"New" system1 one branch 1 fail = some exp and 0 copper.
"New" system 2 one branch 1 success = some more exp and 1 copper. You work it out.
I'm through arguing as I've made my point. We shall agree to disagree I hope. You'll notice I didn't insult you during my post.