New Character Creator

[Arkadia Misella]

I had this little idea about 10 seconds ago while reading the general forum.

When creating a character you are forced to choose your race, then allocate your stats. Many questions arise as to where certain points should go to create a character. Most people are seeking a "powerful" or "ultimate" character. One that cannot be bested. This is why we have so many warriors out there with maxed out Strength, Agilty, etc.

My proposal is to randomnly generate these stats and keep them hidden from the player. Have the creator ask the players a couple of questions to help determine what class...or simply place about 15 or so class options to choose from

Example
Barbarian
Paladin
Crusader
Thief
Wizard
Sorcerer
yada yada yada you get it

Now each class has its own parameters
A barbarians strength would always be high where as a wizards will always be low....and let the creator determine the skill points, but keep them hidden from the player.
In real life, you cannot choose how good or not good you are at your phsyical abilites. This system will add a bit more mystery, and I believe will even out the playing field. People will have their classes they enjoy, but everyone WILL be different for a change.

[Ezor Edwickton]

I don't really like this because it hides your stats from you. But i do think there should be a default stat layout for certian "classes." ie: fighter, mage, druid. But you can adjust these skills to customize your character. This makes is easy for the new player to have a character suitable for his role, and the more advanced player to customize his character.

[Arkadia Misella]

It will not entirely hide them. If you choose Barbarian, you know your strength will definately be between 18-22 (dont know true numbers so that is a guess)
If you chose mage, you will def. have an Intelligence of 18 - 24
So you will have an idea of your stats, but not a definate number.

I know I cannot tell you exactly how strong or exactly how smart I am, but I know I can push a car by myself and figure a 15% tip in my head.

[Ezor Edwickton]

I just want to see exactly what i'm being given, thats all. I think most people like that too.

[Moirear Sian]

Being someone who plays a "warrior" with Str 12 and Con 8, I don't like this proposal because it eliminates variation and, considering how many people work with min/maxed stats, it eliminates "oddities". Say, like in the case of Sian, a warrior who is not strong, or a mage who is stupid—just for example—would technically not be possible, unless I pick a mage and play him like a warrior, or pick a warrior and play him like a mage (uh... does that only sound funny to me?).

And aside of all that, I'm personally an enemy of class systems in RPGs.

[Lorck]

I agree with Ark on this one, thats a good idea. Ezor i know you want to know what your chars stats are, but the downside to that is you will know you char can be the maxed out strength, intel, ect. While with arks sugestion it might indeed level out the playing field. Every one wont just be mega strong and things of that nature.

[Moirear Sian]

level out the playing field

"Take out the mage first"
"Tank him with multiple attacks"
"Use ranged combat, don't enter melee"

Leveled out playfield = predictable playfield.

For the record, my "warrior's" highest stat rating is 16, lowest 8. I hope some people eventually come to the conclusion that a bit more realistically set attribute ratings serve better both for roleplaying, too, not just for the optimal edge in combat. This game is about other things than just combat, y'know. Besides the point that everybody has an equal amount of stat points as it is (which would imply that balance is already served). Sure, I wish sometimes some people who play characters with Int 3 and Ess 3 and Wil 3 would actually play their characters proforma, but the flipside to the coin is that I have complete freedom in setting up the character when I have a concept first.

Just my two cents.

[Moathia]

I currently have one of the best warrior chars on the island. and He has maxed out int.

[Misjbar]

Why do I have the feeling that has to do with certain items? *gg*

[Bloodhearte]

I proposed something similar a few months ago...nobody seemed to like the idea.

To prevent these "ultimate" characters from being created, all we can do is rely on the player's honesty. That's it.

[Moirear Sian]

I proposed something similar a few months ago...nobody seemed to like the idea.

To prevent these "ultimate" characters from being created, all we can do is rely on the player's honesty. That's it.

I just don't understand why everybody sees a need to have this prevented.

• RPing is not about winning fights
• Min/Maxed stats can hurt a fighter's overall combat capabilities
• If a character outmatches another in skill, attributes don't have much/any weight

People will have their classes they enjoy, but everyone WILL be different for a change.

It's not the attributes that define the roleplay hinging on a character, it's the player behind the character defining the roleplay. I think there is a good deal of characters presently in the game that jump out of the "norms" (great thing indeed). Just like alot of people are apparently hardly-willed to read all the info on moonsilver, some take no time for deeper considerations on their character; e.g., giving them a unique personality while remaining within the borders of the character's given race.

No way I see a "class system" of sorts that randomly generates ratings for the player improving the more eminent issues at hand.

[Moathia]

Actually, it has nothing to do with any items, he was great with out that armour.

[Moirear Sian]

And my "warrior" can kick some butt without a double-axe. Imo there are some "common illusions" or "mistaken beliefs" as to how the game actually works, in fact hardly any of the true workings behind the combat system come out from "official" side and apparently only few are truly known. Sure, a double-axe is pretty powerful compared to the other weapons in the game, and 18 constitution allows your character to take alot of hits, but these things don't encompass the entire combat system of the game, some might have figured already that with a little "concept" you might find ways eventually to bypass these challenges cleverly.

And my point finally is... limiting player characters to a class- or class-like system is only a plus for an illusion of balancing out combat completely, but a minus for free character concepts.

[falco1029]

I think that maybe instead you should be able to choose yourselgf but in order to avoid stat confusion you can ahve them generated based on a class, and that way might not get exactly what you want, but you get maybe 2 or 3 extra stat points.

[Bloodhearte]

I proposed something similar a few months ago...nobody seemed to like the idea.

To prevent these "ultimate" characters from being created, all we can do is rely on the player's honesty. That's it.

I just don't understand why everybody sees a need to have this prevented.

• RPing is not about winning fights
• Min/Maxed stats can hurt a fighter's overall combat capabilities
• If a character outmatches another in skill, attributes don't have much/any weight

People will have their classes they enjoy, but everyone WILL be different for a change.

It's not the attributes that define the roleplay hinging on a character, it's the player behind the character defining the roleplay. I think there is a good deal of characters presently in the game that jump out of the "norms" (great thing indeed). Just like alot of people are apparently hardly-willed to read all the info on moonsilver, some take no time for deeper considerations on their character; e.g., giving them a unique personality while remaining within the borders of the character's given race.

No way I see a "class system" of sorts that randomly generates ratings for the player improving the more eminent issues at hand.

Yes, many of those points are true Sian.

IMO, it seems like a lot of players make their character's identity based on how "good" they are at things, especially fighting. That's a bad move, for sure.

When I proposed it, at the time, I saw a lot of these "Plastic, Disposable, Faceless Characters" (PDFCs? ) and I thought having attributes randomly distributed would be neat. But I have learned that it would pretty much end up restricting role playing freedom with characters, and would barely if at all solve the problem.

If this problem is still rampant, maybe a "How To Role Play a Pixelated Person Interestingly" thing should be made.

For example, a lot of characters I've seen lately are the "wanderers who fight good and do noble deeds although they claim to be neutral" kind. A player could take a look at this, and decide to play a character with a completely opposite identity.

I could be wrong though - that may not be the problem at all. Maybe characters are plenty different, but the problem is that a lot of players don't give their characters enough life? Type more damn it!

Edit: On the combat system end of things, I think these "fads" are results of players not being brave enough to explore the different kinds of attributes, weapons and armor.

Look at it this way: in the older days of Illarion, only a handful of attributes actually effected anything and the players that found out what the useful attributes were, maxed out their combat-related ones...while leaving the others alone.

One guy did this, and passed the idea to another guy, and everybody later figured out if they want to be the "best" fighter, they would have to do the same thing the first guy did. Call it a bad habit.

But these days, programmers claim that every attribute (not a handful) has a use now, combat or otherwise. And this claim, I've found, is most definately true. But other players are skeptical...they fear creating a character that would be permanently stuck with attributes that could be useless. But there's no reason to believe this.

Many players I think are still following the "oldskool" way of giving their characters any edge possible in combat. But this method is outdated, it's perfectly fine to create a character with somewhat balanced attributes and fight still!

My character relies more on finesse rather than muscle to "get the job done." No, he may not be able to take a hit real well due to his average constitution, but I dare any character to step within his reach.

But then again, there are still some "elitist" players floating around who gloat about their character's might or use that character to put down other characters that can't make his health sink quickly. These types should be ignored, in my opinon...they completely ignore the fact that your character could possibly be dangerous due to his history or practice (yes, before you ask, I am drawing on personal experience here).

I think I've typed waaaaay too much for an edit.

[Aegohl]

The players Sian and Bloodhearte make points that I wish to put my GM stamp of approval on. Bloodhearte was especially clever in his presentation of the facts, as I see it.

Read this, especially, because it's come to be one of the great ironies in Illarion:

Edit: On the combat system end of things, I think these "fads" are results of players not being brave enough to explore the different kinds of attributes, weapons and armor.

Look at it this way: in the older days of Illarion, only a handful of attributes actually effected anything and the players that found out what the useful attributes were, maxed out their combat-related ones...while leaving the others alone.

One guy did this, and passed the idea to another guy, and everybody later figured out if they want to be the "best" fighter, they would have to do the same thing the first guy did. Call it a bad habit.

But these days, programmers claim that every attribute (not a handful) has a use now, combat or otherwise. And this claim, I've found, is most definately true. But other players are skeptical...they fear creating a character that would be permanently stuck with attributes that could be useless. But there's no reason to believe this.

Many players I think are still following the "oldskool" way of giving their characters any edge possible in combat. But this method is outdated, it's perfectly fine to create a character with somewhat balanced attributes and fight still!

Tricks to prematurely get ahead don't last long in Illarion. When I hear talk about these tricks, they often remind me of those that play lottery games. They have access to the statistics (as do you, if you put some work into figuring them out) but instead they generally stick to superstitions, wild rumors, and hearsay.

It is important to remember that this game is in it's alpha stage still, and as far as we can see into the future, it will continue to be a project in work. That being said, game balance is one issue that is still in constant work, and it only takes a handful of players running around saying, "The doubleaxe is the best weapon in the game" for the doubleaxe stats to be nerfed. However, I have no doubt that the "tricks" often do not reflect the numbers in the database.

Aegohl

[Mimblethorp]

I like the origional suggestion alot because then there will be no more guessing wrong when creating a character and abandoning it.

I mean think real life. You don't just decide one day, HEY! I wanna be really strong! No you say HEY! I'd love to learn martial arts and kick peoples butts, I bet being quick and strong would prolly be a good thing!

Same here, you don't choose stats, you choose the kind of character you would like to have, fighter, priest, figher/priest, etc... then the creator would randomly assign your stats, making sure you have the MINIMUM stats for what your character wants to do but also allowing a wide range of difference between all the people that want the same thing.

There could even be an option called RANDOM for those of you who want to discover what you could be good at on your own.

Now don't argue that you use your stats to RP. You can go ahead and believe whatever you want your stats are. I swear there are TONS of people out there who are really very smart but because they've been told all growing up that they were stupid, they ended up believing it. If you want to play a mentally challenged weakling, DO IT. The only thing this affects is game mechanics and what a shock when the local retard in a moment of inspiration burns down the hospital with a fireball the size of an orcs ego.

[Quinasa]

In Illarion, you DO choose your stats. For all the reality in the game there is an equal amount (if not more) of fantasy. When I first started playing Illarion it was nothing like anything I'd ever seen before. You didn't have a character class to base on when making yer chars. There was no rolling dice like D&D, no choosing a class and getting what came with it like other games. Illarion is exceptional in that area. If you choose your chars future before you start then they'll never grow. Sure there are abilities that you want to make sure you have, the current char generator allows us that much.

Now don't argue that you use your stats to RP. You can go ahead and believe whatever you want your stats are.

-----
Quinasa: Galim, could you make me a war axe? I've heard you're good.
Galim gives Quinasa a war axe.
Galim (w): (( Just pretend I gave you one, my stats aren't good enough to be a master smith ))
-----
HA HA HA! I don't think so.

You don't need stats to RP that yer char is a mental case, but there are things you need to know yer stats for. Imagine starting a craft and getting half way only to find out that half way is as far as you can go. You have to drop everything and find something new. Knowing yer stats helps you to NOT have to go through that. I can't RP Quin to be a great mage just because I want her to be. She sucks at it. Stats go hand in hand with in game RP abilities. I brought Quinasa into the world of Illarion not knowing what to expect. I had this whole background story made, practically a book. Nothing in it had anything to do with skills. She didn't come to the island as a carpenter or anythign like that. She started out a lumberjack and a carpenter to make money to pay her way. She's now a farmer and leads a republic. Go figure. You never know what the possibilities are, that's why the char generation is way it is.

[Bloodhearte]

Tricks to prematurely get ahead don't last long in Illarion. When I hear talk about these tricks, they often remind me of those that play lottery games. They have access to the statistics (as do you, if you put some work into figuring them out) but instead they generally stick to superstitions, wild rumors, and hearsay.

It is important to remember that this game is in it's alpha stage still, and as far as we can see into the future, it will continue to be a project in work. That being said, game balance is one issue that is still in constant work, and it only takes a handful of players running around saying, "The doubleaxe is the best weapon in the game" for the doubleaxe stats to be nerfed. However, I have no doubt that the "tricks" often do not reflect the numbers in the database.

Aegohl

Exactly. Extremism blows when it comes to creating characters...stats get tweaked, are added, averaged, dulled, etc. as the Alpha stage exists.

But having a well balanced character in many stats lasts much longer as changes to the attributes are made. The well balanced are never punished through the process...the "cheaters" are.

As for maxing out stats, yes, progress can be made in the game with these types of characters...but the roof for progress is a lot lower. The balanced characters might take longer to get what he/she wants, but in the end, he takes home all the goods.

[Mimblethorp]

There's a contradiction I've seen stated between the last two posts that I'm curious to have straightened out.

One post says that it is impossible to craft some things if your stats aren't high enough. Another post says that a well balanced character can get what he wants, it just takes longer to get there.

I personally would hope that the latter is the case as even a clutz has the off chance of accidentally making a masterpiece of a weapon, it's just not nearly as likely as the character with muscles buldging from his eyeballs that can balance a needle, tip first on the tip of his finger. However, my understanding is that this isn't true, that a well balanced character is what you would call a "Jack of all trades, master of none". And in the case of magic/druidery possibly not even a Jack of either of those trades.

[Bloodhearte]

I mean well balanced by not painfully average (10 in every attribute)...in order for a character to "specialize" in something, he/she should probably have a few lower than average stats and a few higher than average stats.

I'm just not a fan of the 18 this, 18 that, 0 everything else.

[Aegohl]

Well, Mimblethorp, it should seem pretty obvious that what one can create is based upon skill, which can be increased by training. The attributes make that easier or more difficult.

It is only in special cases, special skills, as it were, that there are limits. Without the limits, we would experience the imbalances of having Str 18, Con 18, and Agility 18 fighters also casting magic.

The cutoff point, however, seems quite low. If you were under the assumption that one who is blind, dumb, and spiritually void could be a sorceror, well, too bad.

Aegohl

[Quinasa]

There's a contradiction I've seen stated between the last two posts that I'm curious to have straightened out.

One post says that it is impossible to craft some things if your stats aren't high enough. Another post says that a well balanced character can get what he wants, it just takes longer to get there.

I personally would hope that the latter is the case as even a clutz has the off chance of accidentally making a mastererpiece of a weapon, it's just not nearly as likely as the character with muscles buldging from his eyeballs that can balance a needle, tip first on the tip of his finger. However, my understanding is that this isn't true, that a well balanced character is what you would call a "Jack of all trades, master of none". And in the case of magic/druidery possibly not even a Jack of either of those trades.

And with this statement....

Now don't argue that you use your stats to RP. You can go ahead and believe whatever you want your stats are.

....you say that stats aren't important at all. But doesn't that contradict the post above? Its obvious that once again we've come to a point where people can't distinguish fact from opinion. You NEED the right stats to make a magic wand. You just need them. It's not an opinion, its the truth. Prefering one way of char generation is opinion, not fact. Opinions are bound to contradict eachother as well as facts. And those two posts you were referring to were the opinions of two different people.

[Fooser]

I support any system that gives as much control to character creation to players as possible, which is what the current system does. I also recall Bloodhearte's proposal, I dont think many people liked it because you said a complete randomizing? This is similar except with more restrictions, and starts to take away the control players have in their own character, which leads down the path toward handing out pre-made character templates, and categorizing everyone into "class".

[Garett Gwenour]

Having only a handful of types of characters you can have like Arkadia propossed is a bad idea because you will have the same warrior build/mage/theif etc. It would then provoke more powergaming as everyone has the same attributes as a warrior the one with higher skill or better weapon would win.
The way it is now it best. Bloodhearte is right, maxing str dex agility and constitution won't really help you anymore.

[Pendar]

Bloodhearte is right, maxing str dex agility and constitution won't really help you anymore.

I am really not sure that statement is true. Garret you and I both have characters who are very similar as far as combat skill goes .
There for we both know how entirely the MAX str dex agility characters. "hence forth knowen as SAG" can rule combat in game.
How ever it seems there is a balance that can be found characters like callith being the exceptions
By the way nice job to PO callith for finding the stat combination that works on all levels.
So were as maxing out the big 3 combat stats may not be ultimate answer, I can attest that a balanced character is not the answer either. If you intend to win more than you lose of course.
Brian

[Pendar]

Infact it now turns out that your character is not even as skilled as mine.
Which is interesting, I obviously lack a certain stat big time
The plot thickens....
Brian