"Restart" Choice: Not As Simple As First Glance?

[Domitrio]

I put an RP quest on the board (for those who knew what was going on..) while I couldn't play. It was the only time though. I actually rarely check it, unless it is someone I know, or as he said, care about.

[Moirear Sian]

I can't remember the last time I looked in the RPG boards. It's filled with stories of characters that I really don't care for, and personal struggles, and all that stuff. I mean, it's cluttered. Surely, there are many other players who think that the stories aren't worth it?

I used to waste alot of my time there. But I agree. The game should be taking place in the game. And I'm still pretty convinced everybody is just too chicken to try out the "no old characters are continued"-proposal a minority is suggesting here.

Geesh, I mean, we have people whining about no motivation to play before the wipe, but exactly this time that is quickly running out is your chance to end all your stories in a finale. But nahhh, let's just take the hardest way and find odd explanations for something that is unnecessary, like continuing characters and coming up with nonsense why they have no skills and items their old characters would have retained.

If after the wipe, someone tells me they're a fighter but they can't kill flies, I will most likely be laughing at them, probably even in-character (given I don't have to run from flies myself).
If after the wipe, someone claims to be a smith, and they can't even make me a dagger, I'll have my new character go look for a real smith.

It's as simple as that.

That's why I'm with Bloodhearte here; ditch all your old characters and start with new ones, it will make things so much easier for everybody! But hey, I can't force you, right? The GMs will have to go with the majority, it's as simple as that.

[Bloodhearte]

Eh, I used to waste lots of time there with personal stories myself. Granted, there are a handful of more enlightened people that read it and say "good shit," but I have a feeling that most players don't care for it let alone read the whole thing.

But hey, that seems to be the consensus - they're too chicken to start from scratch so they will continue oldskool. Oh well.

[Cain Freemont]

Why not just drop your characters? I have as much to lose as you fellas, I have several characters, some with rare items and a few with pretty high skills. But hey, F 'em, let's start over.

Don't become slaves to your fictional pieces of work...if you were creative enough to create these prized characters in the first place, surely you're creative enough to make new characters and equip them with cooler or at least different story lines?

Yes, we all have a great deal to lose, that is going to be lost no matter what (skills, items, etc). A tried and true RP'er (I believe that you used the term in on of your other posts) is not just someone that can drop everything and start something entirely new. That would be a scientist.
Roleplaying is more than just some eighth grade science experiment. You don't just go and completely erase all of your work just for some new idea to accomodate others. Think about this: Those who want to start fresh can, while still allowing people to maintain their characters' personalities. Those of you who want to start fresh can simply make new characters, while we (who want to keep our characters' personalities) can continue on. There's no real problems there, so why drag everyone else down with you?

Roleplaying to me (and to many others I know) an art. As an artist, you are not enslaved by your work, you embrace your work. I think the reason people do not want to completely scratch everything and start anew is because people are attached to their greatest masterpieces, in a sense. I have become a part of Cain Freemont and Cain Freemont has become a part of me. If I cannot keep my character's personality intact, I will quit. Plain and simple. I will find other places to roleplay that do not have such ludicrous ideas as completely wiping three years of work.

What I don't agree with is the general attitude to maintain a (pardon my opinion please, it's biased by reading most of it only from the Chronicles which are only a very rough recollection of perhaps many enjoyable hourse you've spent playing the game) background that is in a literary sense, rather weak in my book. It starts off horribly in the oldest days with tales revolving around recurring names like "Darkwalker" and "Fluffy the Sheep", which I find downright shameful for a game that boasts such serious roleplaying as it does now these days (and definitely does not justify all the snobs roaming about on the forums telling others how they are better roleplayers than others).

And here is where we see who is obsessed with realism and who is obsessed with fantasy. To this, I say "use your imagination." Darkwalker could be an alias to a character whose name was never revealed while on the isle. Fluffy the Sheep was great. It added a light-heartedness to the roleplaying atmosphere (something that is much needed, especially now when we have all these stuffy, oh-so-serious roleplayers that demand perfection in everything). I find less and less light-hearted players everyday I log into Illarion. Everyone is about getting their character roleplayed so that he or she is well-known, like its some important thing. Sure, having your character well-known is great, but if you aren't having fun, then what the hell is the point?

And here is where things divide into "what's fun and what's not." Many people will say that what is fun depends on the person, which is completely true. But sometimes what is fun to one person does not fit into what is fun to everyone else. That is why the majority is successful and that is why we should not be forcibly dragged down by the few who want a complete reconstruction of history. If they want a new start, they should start a new character. There's no reason to make the artists part with what they embrace. If there is no reason for doing something, then it shouldn't be done. Perhaps roleplaying would prove a challenge if there was a history wipe, but do you know what else is a challenge? Climbing Mount Everest. I think that completely starting over would be more irritating than challenging.

If all else fails, have the GMs gather up the ideas that have been proposed and write them down. Then tear them up into little strips, throw them in a hat, and draw from the hat. The first idea drawn will be put into play. That gives the supporters of chaos their fix, plus it satisfies one side of the argument. One way or another, no matter what is decided, you're going to lose players. The question is, which path will allow you to lose the least? I'm starting to think that the GMs should have the final ruling on this, rather than leaving it up to the players, many of which have a tendency to obsess over an argument (We all know who we are )

[Bloodhearte]

Although I still think otherwise, I see your point of view Cain. I think we can see how our versions of "character fun" differ.

I like to create and destroy characters within a reasonable time span, with the exception of Vahkos - he was around too long. I like to give them lots of life, then burn out before I feel that character stagnates.

I also think that if I end up playing and keeping characters for too long, I end up caring about what happens to them too much...as demonstrated by some nay sayers here.

But then again, people really want their characters to be around a long time to actually develop a history with them. I suppose I'm just too experimentive for that.

Edit: I just think that it would be really cool if a completely new world was practically made, rather than a continuation of the oh so predictable one. (By "world," I mean social community - not so much the map)

[Domitrio]

I actually have my plan all... planned. I am going to start fresh, brand new character, and I'm going to have great fun doing it. I'm sure we all will, like I said earlier, but.. meh I just wanted some final ruling. I suppose I'm good with the discussion we had. I do dissagree about one thing.

I don't see why people think that starting fresh will make their years of work turn out for nothing. I personally remember some great times I had as my characters, I don't count them as wasted. But yeah, I'm in the group that lost a spouse, so... I'm a bit bias as about swapping over. A rebirth is a blessing to me... but not to some people. I respect that, we'll all just deal. I'm sure it'll turn out great. But I hope that no one begrudges me my right to begin anew.. just like I don't their right to continue as their character. Though I do not agree with that disicion, I really can't say not to..

[Moirear Sian]

And here is where we see who is obsessed with realism and who is obsessed with fantasy.

"Conscience" was right, some people do make too many assumptions per day!

I don't see why people think that starting fresh will make their years of work turn out for nothing.

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't consider it "work"?

[Bloodhearte]

"Work." Reminds me of my younger brother, David. He was irritated to find one of his saved games on some console was deleted, and he kept saying "all that work for nothing!" I thought games = fun?

If people really start considering a particular game work, then the game probably isn't for them...and it's not their fault, it's just that a game shouldn't result in countering the purpose of playing in the first place - that purpose being fun/entertainment.

[Domitrio]

Hehe, poor choice of words, substitue in "hours of gameplay."

[Cain Freemont]

And here is where we see who is obsessed with realism and who is obsessed with fantasy.

"Conscience" was right, some people do make too many assumptions per day!

Haha, that is true, I have made an assumption. Though, the only reason I have is because I haven't been presented with anything that says otherwise.

"Work." Reminds me of my younger brother, David. He was irritated to find one of his saved games on some console was deleted, and he kept saying "all that work for nothing!" I thought games = fun?

I usually say something like, "smile! All that progress lost." rather than "work." Because yes, games are meant to be fun. But there is a certain attachment people acquire when they put forth a lot of effort over the span of a long period of time. Its human nature, really. Some people let themselves become attached, some people try not to, like Bloodhearte for example. I feel I should add that video games on console are somewhat different from games like Illarion. Illarion is a world where one actually applies his or her imagination to help create a society for everyone and video games usually consist of picking the right choice and moving on, often not really affecting the game in the end anyway. That is why people get so adamant about losing it all. They know that there is no feasible way for anything to ever be the same again and they miss out on possible choices in the future by starting all over. I am aware of the fact that a completely new start does provide a completely new set of choices, but there is still a difference between those choices and that of what is lost, regardless of how few words exist to explain the difference.

Honestly, I do not want my character to be lost and as I stated before, if I cannot continue to roleplay Cain as the person he is and has become, I will quit. It isn't that I don't understand the other side of the coin, its just that I have an attachment to Cain. Cain Freemont is my second of four characters I have made during my three years of playing Illarion. And I have come to find that he is my masterpiece. Though I rarely roleplay him as the character he once was (due partially to what social surroundings he is in), he was created as my masterpiece and as such still is, despite the changes he has gone through.

Cain has, perhaps, experienced every known trial of life, from love, to hatred, to suffering, and vengeance. Were it not for the fact that he is simply pixels on a monitor, I would think him as real as any person. Seeing one's ultimate creation thus far (and perhaps forever) utterly destroyed would crush any artist. That is why I would quit. It is unfortunate, because I do believe that there are many opportunities that can be had with making everything brand new. And I know I am, at this point, contradicting myself, but is that really so bad? Isn't a contradiction simply being able to see and speak of both sides of the coin?

[Moirear Sian]

Well, that was a darn good explanation Cain, I'll give you that. You're excused, the rest of people wanting to continue their characters is not. Let's introduce something new, only people who can write an essay of their own why they won't abandon their old characters are allowed to continue them.

[Bloodhearte]

Reads right Cain. The anecdote of my brother and his compulsive gaming wasn't intended to be an insult toward you, just an example of why I think attachment to something not terribly significant in life can be...unhealthy. People start mistaking it for work, making it more than a game. But that's all I think it should be, is a short fun-break.

But that's my opinion. Some people enjoy the long term building of something, like characters. Some people are just darn religious with their digital people though.

[Dyluck]

As much as players enjoy this game, I'm sure martin or Cassandra must feel some kind of enjoyment too when they go through hell to program some game without pay for a couple hundred ingrates on the word wide web. If they didn't get some kind of enjoyment or satisfaction from it, then wouldn't it be as stupid as playing a game that isn't fun? Yet nobody will deny that if all their programming were deleted and had to start all over, they'd probably feel sick to the stomach, even though they had to have enjoyed their work (although I'm sure a more difficult kind of work was involved for programming) , so why must some people insist that it is SO illogical for players to feel the same way for their stories? Just because this is "just a game" doesn't mean that a certain degree of "work" put into it made it any less worthwhile. Just because this is "just a game" doesn't mean players shouldn't enjoy it for more aspects than only for the single moment or action of interacting inside the client.

There's a million types of games and liesure activities that people all over the world enjoy like sports, board games, or any kind of hobby. All of these things could easily entail putting some "work" into it over a period of time, and can sometimes even lead to some frustration at times, as evident in Illarion at many times. Yet, people continue to enjoy those games and liesure activities for more than just the singular moment of doing it despite the setbacks it brings sometimes.

Sure, it's not supposed to feel like it's ALL work, or else it would be stupid to play it. It's as simple as someone putting a ship inside glass bottle. Sure, they enjoyed making it, but if it were to fall apart, he would natrually feel like some of his "work" had gone to waste. It's human nature like Cain said. It's natural human sentiment in many things we enjoy. So why must some people feel as if here it's some diesease that needs to be shunned? That enjoying the game for anything other than the single moment of roleplay inside the client is a sin that needs to be purged? It's not like anyone is so fanatical that they're going to jump of the nearest bridge right after the wipe.

For the people who don't feel that their time in the game as left something worthwhile enough to them to want to keep the continuing storyline rather than start over, I completely understand that. Had I lived your life or had your experiences in Illarion, I would have felt the same way and wouldn't mind a fresh start. It is not about which side makes more sense. They both make sense. It's just a matter of people enjoying this roleplaying game for different reasons or on different levels, and realizing that the reasons on either side are just as natural and logical as your own, my own, or anyone's own.

[Moirear Sian]

Ok, green light for Dyluck too.

Next please.

[Cain Freemont]

It's not like anyone is so fanatical that they're going to jump of the nearest bridge right after the wipe.

Dear world,
You never listened to me, never heard my true calls to Illarion. So now I will be jumping off the Maple Street br - *looks up from his note and sees Dyluck's post* Erm >_>

[Galim]

And if anything, it punishes the powergamers (whatever those are), not the tried and true RP'ers. They lose all of their hours upon hours of skill building or "standing around monsters" as you so eloquently put it

Wrong, it will be more a punishment for the roleplayers. a powergamer just thinks "whatever, again a few weeks of work and training to get back what i had". a roleplayer thinks "damn, everything i worked hard and honest for in the last two years will be gone, it will take me again so long to get that back just to be able to play the role i thought and had played"

A powergamer dont need long to get back what he lost at skills and items. a rolepalyer who dont like it to train and work for hours WILL need damn along for it. and he will have the thought that he must do it again, do something he dont like much.

[martin]

"damn, everything i worked hard and honest for in the last two years will be gone, it will take me again so long to get that back just to be able to play the role i thought and had played"

This means you changed your mind and vote for a complete history wipe now?

Martin

[Galim]

No, don't twist again my words and their meanings, Martin. That really starts to annoy me alot. You don't have more important things to do at the moment than reading my for you lesser important posts and find new ways to give yours sooo well liked postings to them?

[martin]

I didn't know that I employed you as my schedule manager.

The point is: You see it as a strain to play "Galim" until he is as rich and as skillful as the Galim was before the wipe. Because for you, what has to happen after the wipe is to restore the situation of the game as it was before, and that will need time -- time that you see as pure waste and which you do not enjoy playing.
There are several ways to avoid that:
* No wipe at all.
* You start a new character.
* You play that game not having fun and cyring around like a baby, until, one day, Galim has all the items, money and skills that he had before, then you will be a happy player again.
* Play Galim who lost some of his things and skills and HAVE fun and not trying to get back what he once had but adopt the new situation as a chance for new RP.
* Leave the game.

You have no influence on the first point, so this has to be kicked.
The next option would be a nice one, I can guarantee that you will have fun.
The next option is the chosen not-to-have-fun-situation, which, surprise, is no fun for you.
The next option will bring fun again.
The last option... I don't know.

So, from three possible options you have to stay in Illarion, 2 will bring fun and one won't.
I wonder why you chose the no-fun-option and then cry around. You MAY very well chose it, but then please don't whine around.

Martin

[Galim]

first: I just showed an example why the wipe is more a "punishment" for non-powergamers than for powergamers, but i think you didn't see that. That wasn't the first time when I remember right.

2. No, i don't see it as a strain to play galim, but it IS a strain to have the work and the training again. i am no player who likes it to do such things alot, and especially not twice, because i already did it.

of course i don't enjoy the hours in the mine or whereelse. It IS not joy, and you can't say me something other. before YOU say it is fun to do that try it on your own, because i disbeliefe that you ever tried to build up a character in the current game, or even played one.

all I don't enjoy is just the many hours of work and training to get back something i had before and for what i worked before. but i have no other choice. because of that i won't give up Galim, and the rp i had with him. i will continue, even when it will be hard to get that all back.

by the way, because of my studys i have not the time of earlier times. i cant stay online whole day and night like before. so i wont even train or work as much as i did before, what wasn't very much.

And just that you understand it finally too, with what you seem to have problems, I HAVE fun playing Galim, I enjoy it to play him, i just don't enjoy the work and training. thats all. and if you ever would have played this game more than just a few hours, you would understand that.

the thing i like at the current galim is that i dont have to stay in mines and get bored by it, or to slash monsters, what is really an annoying thing to do. I can concentrate completly on roleplaying. but i have no other choice in the future than to do it, not when i want to stay with galim. and i WANT to do that, because i have too much fun with him when i dont work in mines or infront of monsters.

[Moirear Sian]

What about social powergaming, like maintaining all old characters and guilds despite a wipe? I think you're all "social powergamers", just like all the others who refuse to step back and bury their old characters.

Just another thought that crossed my mind.

[martin]

@Galim:

QED.

And EOD, of course.

Martin

[Galim]

The first time i remember that you don't want to continue a discussion martin.

What means QED please?

[Rackere Diplomatre]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=QED

[Galim]

I see, that it means. Very nice martin.

You think really you are a superbrain, hm? Just because your english is better and because you can discuss better in english. You proven nothing, you just made some false imputations based on my bad english and your impotency to understand really what others want to say.

thanks

[Bloodhearte]

It's not like anyone is so fanatical that they're going to jump of the nearest bridge right after the wipe.

This coming from the same guy who claimed I knew Darlok's combat history like the back of my hand, when all I did is mention two encounters my character played along with him in.

If you guys want to continue what you have, okay, fine. I can't change your opinion on what "fun" is. But that doesn't change my opinion regarding a potential experiment.

Edit: I have to go with Moirear's "social powergaming" argument.

[Moirear Sian]

If you guys want to continue what you have, okay, fine. I can't change your opinion on what "fun" is. But that doesn't change my opinion regarding a potential experiment.

Edit: I have to go with Moirear's "social powergaming" argument.

Another thing crossed my mind on this subject, I know alot of people's "good guy"-roleplaying will suffer when all the Skulls and people like Blood or me start completely new characters. Who will be the "bad guys" to reflect yourselves off and claim you're good—Drahken Vorkallion?

I know I'm going to be playing a follower of Sirani, har har!

Have fun.

[Bloodhearte]

I imagine it can start and end like the Salem witch hunting...and that's how evil dudes would come about.

"He/she is possessed by an evil spirit! He/she must be burned!"
*angry hillbilly religion fanatics with pitchforks scream in agreement*

Maybe people make their characters too PC for something like that to happen, but it could be something similar.

[Conscience]

of course i don't enjoy the hours in the mine or whereelse. It IS not joy, and you can't say me something other. before YOU say it is fun to do that try it on your own, because i disbeliefe that you ever tried to build up a character in the current game, or even played one.

He is actually quite on the mark here. It is definitely not fun to play the game illarion based on its technical merits, which are nearly nonexistent. The fun from illarion is mainly gained from the social interactions hence the drastic decrease in players after the 10x harder skill gain and other obstacles to character development were placed in.

[Kaledon Mordaine]

But to have social interactions, a character doesn't need to be powerful. Playing a weak character can be fun as well, can't it?