Complaint

[falco1029]

Agressive acts of a town leader:

1. Ordering their town's citizens to attack.

2. Attacking yourself, in the name of your town


Nonagressive but easily confused acts of a town leader:

1. Allowing their town's citizens to choose their own sides.

2. Not punishing a citizen of their town that attacked another town/group.


Given recent events, I know anyone with any intelligience will understand what this means.


~Anonymous

[Athian]

how about this. if feel you want to choose a side in a conflict your supposed to be nuetral in then end your citizenship and join your side. don't complain that your being punished, because a a member of a nuetral nation you a also a representitive of is policies, by breaking there rules you endanger your fellow man and your home. so frankly if you feel the need to fight no matter what then abandon your name sake as a citizen of said place and go fight, don't expect the best of both, because that is frankly not going to happen. you cna always rejoin said kingdom later instead of making a ass of yourself by endangering your home and crying about unfair treatment.

Athian Courlas
Ambassador of Varshikar

[falco1029]

The point of this (which you obviously missed) is that a citizen should not have their town held for their actions if they act on thier own (meaning not in their town's name), and neither side should think of it as an action of the town.


~anonymous

[Misjbar]

If you bind to your town, dear coward, it means you always act in their name, and people will always follow your actions back to your town. Or city, whichever you prefer. If you are from Troll's Bane for instance, but you fight against some dwarf in Silverbrand, then the dwarves will hold Troll's Bane responsible, because that is your town.
Oh well, I can only say on assumption, that you are either an orc, or a human, because they are the only one with disfunctional loyalty.

~MM~

[Jeremy Gems Willowbrook]

Its quite simple. If you are loyal to your town dont do anything rash or stupid that will endager it or its citizens. If you feel unable to remain loyal...leave. Being a citizen means being responsible for your town as it is responsible for you. You expect and are entitled to the protection and benefits of your town and citizenship. The price you pay for this is your loyalty and obedience.

[falco1029]

The ignorance here.......what I am saying is that the actions SHOULD NOT be traced back to your town. If that was the case then trollsbane would be responsible for attacking trollsbane on several occasions, and how exactly will that work then? People should have the common intelligience to seperate person from town. Those who cannot need to get their act together and quite frankly, get a brain.

~Anonymous

[Misjbar]

Do not ever call me ignorant anymore. It is your ignorance that is annoying. People who attack people in Troll's Bane, who are Troll's Banians, is a whole different case. That is just plain criminality. You cannot act against someone from another faction, while being part of a town/city/faction, and actually think they will not be responsible. You have your loyalties. Can you not understand.
This post of you made it more clear you have disfunctional loyalties, and whomever you are, I hope your faction will ban you in no time.

~MM~

[Garett Gwenour]

I am a town guard recruit, if I went wild and attacked innocents people would think the whole town guard went wild, and I would be kicked off the guard and banned because of what I did looked poorly on the guard. It is simple.

Garett Gwenour
Recruit of the Town Guard

[falco1029]

Misjbar. You act liek you are all high and mighty, but your prejudiced ways cloud your thinking. Anything coming from you is obviously flawed and biased, so your co0mments are of no more help then a dog peeing on a piece of paper and having it put up here.


Garrett, The town gaurd has a job, to protect citizens, if you arent doing it, of course you will be banned from it. it is a very different matter than that with a town's citizens. People would think that the whole town gauird went bad because of this flawed way of thinking, which i find everywhere. THose who cannot see through this are diusfunctional, and should find help.


~Anonymous

[Athian]

A ban of skulls attacks the town, result The Bloodskulls as a group are thus banned from town. even though not every memeber was present. why? because each indivdual respresents there respective group. thats how it works in politic's more over it's the responsiblity of the leaders of said group to keep there people in line. if they cannot action muts be taken no matter what that action is. in this case people were banned for an indefinate amount of time.
All you say is people 'should not' have things traced back to there loyalities, but that not how it works. and we're all sure you know that. so please stop making yourself look foolish, because everyone seems to understand this simple concept except you.

Athian Corulas

[falco1029]

You fools may all believe that one should represent the group, but give nothing much to back it up, other than It should be like that. What are your reasons for these beliefs?

~Anonymous

[Jeremy Gems Willowbrook]

My anonymous friend...you give no reasons other than it should not be like that. At least we have the courage of our convictions which obviously you do not. It is like that because people have loyalty to their towns and leaders. People have the courage to stand and be counted for their beliefs. If you are a part of a group you should commit to it fully and it to you. Therefore your actions reflect on your group and its on you. If you have loyalty and sense you will be careful of your actions for this reason.
That is the way it is, because that is the way people are. If you are the only one who cannot see that then who is the fool? Who is ignorant? Have the courage to stand for what you believe in. Have the courage to do it openly. At the very least stop whining because you made a mistake and got caught out. This whole situation is very important and involves the whole island so obviously any actions are going to reflect on those involved. If they are allied to some group then obviously the whole group will be implicated. For political reasons if nothing else. The moral?.....Think before you act. Obviously something people did not consider before attacking the Cave. Did nobody read Veralions message? Or did people just not care if he made good on his threat? Did you even have a plan...or were just hoping to walk in and have the captives handed to you?

Jeremy

[falco1029]

You have a flaw in your argument. You speak of an allies' actions representing the whole group. If you are saying this then varshikar is both responsible for attacks on trollsbane and the skull caves. Think before trying to make a point.

~Anonymous

[Jeremy Gems Willowbrook]

The arguement is not flawed. The incidents you speak of caused much difficulty for the leaders involved. Fortunately diplomacy smoothed the troubled waters. People responsible were reprimanded and/or punished. The relations between the groups were strained for a time but were put right. Maybe you should seek knowledge and wisdom before trying to make an arguement. Obviously you do not understand politics.

Jeremy

[falco1029]

I was not trying to make a point, i was showing a flaw in yours, and now your posts contradict each other, so basically you have already lost this argument.

~Anonymous

[Jeremy Gems Willowbrook]

I see where you have made your error. I said allied and you read it as allies. My meaning was an individual is allied to his group. Not groups being Allies of one another. This is where you have become confused.

Jeremy

[Quinasa]

Dear Anonymous,

By saying that the reputation of a community can not be based on the actions of a handful of it's citizens you are saying that the Skulls should never have been punnished for the raids on the town. And by not signing your name to your parchments repeatedly shows that you are either in doubt of the things you write or you are coward to stand up for what you believe in. I do not say these things to provoke you in any negative way but only to point out that where you are pointing fingers at who you think has a flawed philosophy, you are proving that you yourself have as flawed a philosophy as has ever existed.

Signed Proudly,
Qµinasa, Lady of Varshikar

[Misjbar]

Misjbar. You act liek you are all high and mighty, but your prejudiced ways cloud your thinking. Anything coming from you is obviously flawed and biased, so your co0mments are of no more help then a dog peeing on a piece of paper and having it put up here.


Garrett, The town gaurd has a job, to protect citizens, if you arent doing it, of course you will be banned from it. it is a very different matter than that with a town's citizens. People would think that the whole town gauird went bad because of this flawed way of thinking, which i find everywhere. THose who cannot see through this are diusfunctional, and should find help.


~Anonymous

Ah, crossed a line too far. Let's see how you put up against my, "connections". And, to say the least, whenever I find out your name. Maybe you are just the coward, the "peeing" dog, that cannot find a normal way to communicate with us on these lovely walls.

~MM~

[falco1029]

I do not sign my name for a simple reason, and that is because many of those who disagree with these statements will wish to take action, some known to swing their sword or axe before udsing their minds, as many of those I know do. Jeremy, allied would mean the same thing as allied in the context you had, so you are the one who made the mistake, and should admit that you worded it wrong instead of defending it.

The reason the skulls are punished for town raids is because it's many skulls and they do it in the skulls' name. If a citrizen attacks in their own name, not their community, please explain why their community should feel the repercussions. I could see your reasoning IF, and only if, the attack was done in the name of their city. If not, it is for their own reasons and the community shouldn't be blamed. otherwise, like I have said, based on this reasoning, trollsbane is in civil war, since many of it's citizens have fought each other inside it.

Anonymous

[Quinasa]

The town of Trolls Bane has guards to deal with the criminals in it's streets. The difference in the situation that was at hand recently was that EVERYONE in the kingdom of Varshikar should have known we were to stay neutral because of the last time there was an attack on the town. I'm not going to name any names but suffice to say it was the same people that defied orders this time as it was when the Skulls attacked Trolls Bane. THAT is why it is a big deal. Now take your complaints stuff them down your throat because with every piece of parchment you just make yourself look less intelligent.

Signed,
Qµinasa, Lady of Varshikar

[falco1029]

Yes, they have gaurds, but according to your argument, since everyone in trollsbane knows the rules, and shiuld know not to fight because of former events, they are just as much at fault. Some of them do it twice or more, yet the whole town shouod be punished according to your arguments. No matter what you say you cannot distinguish the two, and you will eventually realize you are wrong, no matter how slow your brain's though process works.


Anonymous

[Athian]

that enough already. your not understanding anything anyone is said. because there are many skulls and because they may or may not say they do this in the name of the skulls doesn't make that an absolute truth, the only person who would decide what is done in the name of the skulls would be it's leader.
so frankly your argument still doesn't hold. and it doens't matter, because what you speak of is perceptions and no one will be changing there perception because a pahntom writer likes to annoy people at the wall with his nonsense. the fact that actions of individuals in turn are seen as a representation of the whole is something that all political policies tend to follow. Especially on an isle like ours. You have all right to complain about whatever you feel. but things don't change in a day, nor does it mean you are even correct in your thinking. Frankly you sound like a person who should have no alligences at all if you don't follow basic rules set down by the place you live, you don't deserve to be there. Varshikar isn't asking anyone to bleed for them. all we asked is that you did the exact oppisite. if thats to much then please who ever you are, don't come back.

Athian Corulas
Ambassador of Varshikar

[falco1029]

To be honest, i have never been in Varshikar before, and am complaining on the account of a fe wpeople i know. I understand what everyonme else is saying, but their arguments are flawed and incorrect, and consist of nothing more than "Because it is like that". As for the skulls doing things, if they say they are doign it for the skulls, the whole of the skulls should be blamed, unless the leader punishes them and says it isnt true, like should be done for anyone in such a case. Until you all can give solid reasoning for your thoughts, do not bother posting here.

Anyonymous


((OOC note: this isnt Ules like im sure many of you were thinking))

[Jeremy Gems Willowbrook]

To quote " Jeremy, allied would mean the same thing as allied in the context you had,"
Of course allied would mean the same as allied. (allied meaning joined or united to or with).

Since the whole context of this discussion is about individuals actions reflecting on a group they belong to (allied to, joined with, united with,as in owing allegiance to) the meaning should have been obvious.
You wrote "You speak of an allies' actions representing the whole group"
No I did not. I spoke of a person being allied to a group and their actions reflecting on the group.
I had written " If they are allied to some group then obviously the whole group will be implicated. " Group not groups. Allied not allies.

Perhaps you should give solid reasoning for your thoughts instead of just saying "it should not be like that".
Again to quote ".......what I am saying is that the actions SHOULD NOT be traced back to your town."
Why not? Being a citizen of a town means more than just living there. You can live in a town without becoming a citizen. However, if you decide to become a citizen you are stating that you are something more than just an inhabitant. Therefore your actions represent the town you are a citizen of. Because you have gone that extra step and become a citizen, rather than just living in the town.

Jeremy

[falco1029]

I already explained my reasoning; a town is not responsible for their citizen doing something so they therefore shouldnt take responsibility for it.

Anonymous

[Jeremy Gems Willowbrook]

Can you not see the stupidity of your arguement?
That would lead to total lawlessness. You would invite bandits and brigands and give them a free hand. A citizen could walk outside of town, murder and rob anyone they like then walk back into town and be protected by the Guard. A guard could do the same and be protected by the town because he is a citizen.
If citizenship brings accountability then this cannot happen. That is why a town IS responsible for the actions of its citizens. This forces the town to deal with the criminal element or be help responsible in turn.
Citizenship is, as I have said before, a great deal more than just a matter of where you live. It brings benefits and responsibilities.
You also have to consider matters of politics, diplomacy and the scale of incidents. But as a basic principle a town has to be responsible for the actions of its citizens or law will soon break down.

Jeremy

[Durin Goldtooth]

I already explained my reasoning; a town is not responsible for their citizen doing something so they therefore shouldnt take responsibility for it.

Anonymous

Hrmm i usually don' reply ter these kinds of posts, but this stuck out to me.

What do ye' mean the town ain' responsible fer citizens?

I don' even know what this whole parchment be about... but if yer complainin' about the guards, then yer jus' bein' stubborn.


Ah but here it is : If yer child went missin', would you not want the citizens of the town helpin' you look for him/her? I know i would... assumin' i could find a suitable wife that is...

Anywho, the guards be shorthanded, but we do try our hardest ter 'Please you' even though we don' get paid.

The guards put in a lot o' work for you, an' all some of ye' do is complain about us.

Allrigh' im done.
~Durin GOldtooth~

[falco1029]

Jeremy, if you havent realized, citzens kill people outside of town all the time, and then come back in, so basically you're saying my way wouldn't change anything.

Durin, you are a fool, I do not know how you interpreted this as a bash against the town gaurd.

Anonymous

[Jeremy Gems Willowbrook]

Please give some definite examples.
I have witnessed very few incidents of attacks. I think you are greatly exaggerating when you say All the time.
Also it would depend a lot on where the attack took place, who the attacker and attacked were the scale of the incident and , most importantly, whether or not it was reported.
You also have to again remember that not everyone on this Isle is a citizen of a town. Many people live in Trollsbane but have not actually taken up citizenship. If they have not applied to have their name on the list of citizens then they are not citizens. Merely inhabitants.

Jeremy

[falco1029]

I do not remember exactly who but I remember checking the citizen list shortly afterwards and it havign matches. But as it seems you all are unconvincable about this, i will no longer post anything else here.