The good, the bad and the ugly

[Cliu Beothach]

"Hmm he must be someone...where would I go to hide"...."Oh, that place where nobody ever goes". That is a bit obvious

[falco1029]

In my opinion backgrounds arent necessarly needed and sometimes bettere withouot them. How many of you assess yourself then try to determine the cause of this trait? I wont try to discourage from making your chars background, but I am just stating my view on things. I feel your opinion makes just as much sense as mine.

You don't assess yourself, but your backround does affect you, whether yout think about it or not. Your character might not think about his backround, but that would be the cause of their traits.

[Cliu Beothach]

Falco when you make your character do you make his background first or do you make his traits?

[falco1029]

I make his traits with a backround behind them

[Cliu Beothach]

Which one do you make first....

[falco1029]

usually basic backround first, then traits, then backround behind traits.

[Mellbu Frama]

hmmmm, well if we realy need another evil charecter then ill be evil..... as soon asn my accounts been accepted!!! but ive allredy goten that story..thing so it cant be to long, right?

[Shi Mugen]

I know this is a stupid question but,

If A person is a murder and constantly kills ppl he/she will get a bad reputation and ppl will constantly be trying to kill him/her right ???


However What if A person is a Asssasssn, Theif and or rogue
who steals and only kills if hired and stays amongest the shadows
will he/she still get a bad reputation and constantly be hunted down ??

[falco1029]

Yes but they might not know who the person is.

[Shi Mugen]

ahhh I see,

so if I where that person and during the day I was a normle outstanding citizen who lived a normle life, yet at night I went around with a list of people to "fix"

I would be fine and dont worry about being hunted down ?


I ask because I love being the evil guy, not the heartless killer becuase frankly I have a heart and i would be too soft to do that but if I where presuded with some gold I would be more then happy to, however I hate being hunted down and slain every time I leave a town or in town depending on the game just becease of my love of evil, this is why in many games I am discrouged form being evil and stay a good person dispite my lust for evil.

[Garett Gwenour]

If you want to be a successful assasin do not tell anyone your real name.

[Reverence]

You cant be an assassin and a known person within the town, unless you want to be a known assassin.. Or unless you kill some people who roleplay well and go along with the attempt.

Sad but true im afraid.

[Moskher Heszche]

The traits/concept versus background argument will, no doubt, go on forevor. The background people seem to be in the majority by quite a bit, and so we get good examples of it done right as well as it done wrong. There are very few of us in the other category, and as a result we can't get a good reading, as it were. However, the few arguments against making a character by traits or concept don't seem to be taking in the full extent of what it's about.

It's quite simple really. The proponents of backgrounds build a character from start to finish, the traits of that character reflecting what has gone on in the life of the character. To build a character with traits or a single concept is completely reverse to that process and, while faster, ends with a character that is often full of personality, quirks, emotion, and motivations. After the character is defined, a basic background can be added to be fleshed out as time goes on.

I find, in my own experience, that I develop a greater bond with characters that I've built this way, due to the fact that one, more or less, aproaches them the same way you would approach real people. First they are strangers. Then you learn their mannerisms and quirks. Then you slowly discover their motivations. Eventually you find out where they came from and how they came to be the way they are.

It can be more difficult at times, but the product is well worth it. I'll use Cliu as an example. Cliu Beothach, as a character, seems more colorful than many other characters. You immediately pick up an emotional intensity with this character that you wouldn't normally pick up with most others. Rather than meeting him and realizing that he is a bard that once did this or that in some land over there, you pick up pieces of his personality as they make themselves available to you, such as his incredible pascifism or his curiosity.

[Mellbu Frama]

@shi mugen

wow, i think i like this guy... maybe just because i like evil also, but who cares? (dont answer that). We should get together (once again after i am able to play) and form a ring of assasins or something like that....

[Darlok]

I do not suggest you start right with an "evil" character, especialy not with an assassin role in mind,
since you cannot go unnoticed at the moment.
After you first "job", which will undoubty fail, you are known everywhere.
We have seen many come and go, and in my eyes most of them have been somewhat lame.

Start a nomal character, play the game, learn roleplaying in Illarion, get used to the commons here, after a (long) period of time reconsider creating a "not purely good" character.
Evil roles need experienced players, someone who can predict a little bit how is fellow players tend to react on his actions.

This will save you from failing and turning into an unsatisfied player.

[Kaja Wolfagen]

As i have posted in the past and as Darlok has just written. An evil character should not be your first.

You will be shunned from the majority of the community.
You will be frustrated from the deaths.

A way to combat this is to play a normal happy go lucky character and see it from his point of view the reactions spurned from the evil charatcers, surely i expect youll be one of the mob hunting down the evil, and then once you have come to grips with the game and its community you can start the evil you speak of, and you can say when you have the blood thirsty mob after you ' I used to be a part of that mob ' And this thought will bring warmth to you heart.

[Mellbu Frama]

ahhhh sounds like so much fun. Man i realy hope i am able to play today it would just make me all happy and... stuff.but i think ill try it you're way first.

[Moskher Heszche]

Darren (Kaja) definately knows what he's talking about, as we experienced players know.

I would just like to add, however, that there is always an option to make villains who are of the non-violent type. Less of the above is experienced. It's much less physically painful and much more cerebrally painful sometimes.

[Shi Mugen]

Yes I see where you are all coming from and I agree it is hard and worthless to be "evil" form the start, I have played many games where I jump right into being evil and Its always the same, stressing becease I am coninously killed, lol well this time around I wont be evil from the start I will train my charcter and I prolly wont make him an assassn untill they is a stealth feature added, If it is added and wich I hope is added lol

[falco1029]

Stealth skil lwould be good for my 2nd character

[D.C.]

To add on...
People, your character doesnt have the same modern beliefs you have now. Example today one of my characters found two lesbian lovers kissing. I thought "oh i wonder how *character* would think, the answer was simple he would be utterly disgusted. However when I had my character run around screaming it no one seemed to care, infact one simply said "So?". I do not like to tell people how to roleplay, but if we are playing a medival game dont be afraid to give your 'hero' character some beliefs that were common in that time period.

[Ghásh Wargclaw]

mmm.. yes should we also descriminate women?

[D.C.]

Mmh, yes, I think we should, or at least our characters should
They shouldn't be considered equal to men since Women were not considered equal in much of the world til the early 20th century.

[Anisya]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons

[Brendan Mason]

I think there's a fine line between roleplay discrimination and actual discrimination. Personally, I'm unsure of your ability to roleplay, D.C. and so would face a little...uncertainty as to whether you were playing as your character or displaying your genuine real life opinion.

You see, your point works both ways, D.C.--this view of discrimination could very well be your modern view.

[Naybet Grint]

There were periods of British Medieval history (I'm afraid I can't speak for other nation's history) where women and men were nearly considered equals. This was before the church started preaching that women were the source of temptation, and when the country was sparsely populated following plagues.

In such times there are records of many businesses and castles ran by women and women had as good a social standing as men. True, inheritance was always down the male line and the clergy was a male only institution, but women had the ability to re-populate near deserted communities and this more than outweighed the fact that pregnant women couldn't labour as effictively as others. As such many rose to prominent positions of great respect and authority.

Sadly the Victorian's didn't like this fact (because it didn't fit with their views one bit) and their historians had a habit of reporting only certain facts and ommitting others, so our modern view is generally skewed.

And of course Illarion is a fantasy world, and most fantasy worlds treat men and women as equals, so I see no harm in Illarion doing the same.

[Cain Freemont]

I've noticed some great discussions going on here in this topic. As stated a couple of weeks ago, this is sticky material, at least I think so. My own personal views are as such:

In the past, I have noticed that there are many "light-shaded" people in the game, moreso than the greys or the darks. While it is more fun to play a character whom everyone gets along with, gets good business deals because of friendly connections, defends justice and the town and all that rot, and generally is more involved in quests simply because of the fact that the majority of the quests are a "G-v-E" type battle of doom, essentially, however, playing a character of a darker shade is so much more in depth when executed properly. It adds a certain unpredictable element to the RP that keeps quests alive (remember the quest that lasted over a good 6 months that everyone was starting to get tired of?).

For the most part, I would like to see more grey-shaded characters. Moreso than dark or light. As mentioned several times, it gives depth to the game itself. When I play Cain, I play him as a more grey character, even though he is more inclined to justice. The thing that makes him grey is that he follows his own concepts of justice. He hates the town guard (and don't kill me for that one, I know you all know I hate the way the Town Guard used to be roleplayed, but I assure you that the connection between character and player is mostly coincidence) and rather than upholding political and social morals, he upholds what he feels is best for the town that he has come to love, not the Troll's Bane of now. Cain wants to change things back, even though he knows its very difficult to do, if not impossible, but the drive of his personality and his own set of morals make him try. I have changed many things about Cain in my absence as well. Things that are yet to be revealed that may change how he feels about many things.

When you play a character long enough, not only does he acquire history, if he doesn't already have it, but he acquires personality, simply because of interactions. He has to because he cannot avoid interaction. Without it, there would be no point in playing. That is probably part of the reason so many are inclined to roleplay the dutiful, chivalrous hero of goodness, rather than the scheming merchant of death and evil. Far too often have I seen characters that have such perserverance and determination to keep their characters as they are that they ignore elements that would make most any light-shaded character ever so slightly more grey. I wish I could see more of these kinds of more swayable characters, simply because it gives depth and keeps the RP flowing smoothly, or bumpily as the case may be. As long as the RP flows, I have never personally cared about the outcome. Its the style, not the alignment, that makes the game interesting.

Here are my definitions of Good, Bad, and Ugly:

Good: A character who sticks to his/her morals day and night, in taverns, in battle, and in society. He/she his typically very light-shaded.

Bad: Devious and scheming, this character can be a cold-blooded killer or a master of espionage. These characters do not typically have a moral set that restrains them from doing what they want.

Ugly: People who do not even try to roleplay to their own character's standing on views and in game society. These people range from powergamers, to idiots, and to people whose characters change so much that they can somehow fit into any shading of social standing.

And I would also like to add one element to this topic:

Grey: These characters have a set of morals, whether organized or scattered, like those who are light-shaded, but are willing to suspend those morals in times of dire situations, like those of darker persuasion. The extent of need for suspending these morals range from minor to extreme. These characters, whether orc, human, elf, halfling, or lizardman/woman, whether male or female, always stick to their character(s)' personalities and allow them to change gradually with the flow of natural or drastic influence. Typically, these characters keep a fresh atmosphere and a sharpened mind when they are prowling around ingame, whether one is playing the grey character, or is interacting with him/her.

Man, I feel great after getting all that out.

Cain Freemont pulls out a zippo painted with a rose, gracefully lighting a cigarette and replacing the zippo in his inside coat pocket in one fluid motion. He takes a few brief drags of the cigarette before taking his leave of the topic.

[Cliu Beothach]

"Greys" are just flawed characters. That is how I like to make them.

[Zare]

Of course they are flawed. As everyone should be. I think that there should be no good or evil characters. No light or dark. There can be a lighter grey and a darker grey, but no pure good and evil, because this makes no sense. It is not realistic. Think of any book you've ever read. If it was a nicely constructed story, then you would have noticed that the "good" characters had some bad intentions and the "evil" characters had some good intention. So, this should be applied to all of our characters.

Oh, and I would like to comment on D.C. believing that homosexuality shouldn't be in this setting. I disagee with you, my friend. It was the catholic church that banned homosexuality in real life. The catholic church doesn't exist in Illarion, obviously. So who is there to say that it is wrong?

[Cliu Beothach]

D.C. Can discriminate against it if he wishes. Other wise you are restricted his roleplay, but this doesnt mean that everyone has to.