Bye everybody.

martin · Post by **martin** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:47 pm

Cliu Beothach wrote:This leads to my reasoning, the treatments by the gm's. Not that WE (the players who aren't permitted) get treated badly, but the permitted onses get treated, different.

Okay, to clear things up:
That board was used only on a very few occasions to report people.
Here comes the statistic:

11 threads about RP-questions like "Death of characters", Going around the encumberance by "pushing"", ...
2 threads about GM-abuse (YES, critical towards GMs, you won't believe it!)
8 threads about organization ("Sense of this Board", "Are you still active?", ...)
3 threads complaining about specific characters, which in no case lead to any punishment at all (at least to my knowledge).

That means that, in average, every 2 month a thread pops up about a person, which does in average lead to nothing.

You don't need to worry.

Martin

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:50 pm

Cliu Beothach wrote:K, you go about it the wrong way. I figured out how things work too, but I dont follow how others do it.

I find most of the older players abuse rules or get angry quicker, seems like they feel they have a right to it. Not all, because some of the best older players are great, but just because you are old doesn't mean you are better or even good at rp.

Of course. But what alternative do I have?

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:51 pm

Well, just RP and abide by the rules.

Martin, the board didn't stem the treatment, it may just have spread it.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:52 pm

ok, Martin.
Thanks.

I didn't mean to start a wave of rebellious people.
That topic closed.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:54 pm

You don't need to worry.

Well, I am not to worried about the board...just other things. There is a reason why so many are quitting.

Brendan Mason · Post by **Brendan Mason** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:15 am

Cliu wrote:There is a reason why so many are quitting.

So you enigmatically state in every other post. Care to illuminate for us? It may be fun to feel as if you are fighting the system, but in the majority (notice how I say majority, not all) of cases, there's no reason to "rebel."

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:33 am

K,

If you abuse the same system that others abuse, you should be held to the same standards. Now, that person may have gotten lucky and escaped with not even a mention about their use of OOC knowledge in-game, but if you do the same, you apply the same risks of getting caught as they do. If a certain number of players abuse the rules repeatedly, they are all playing with probability, and sooner or later someone is bound to lose the game of Russian roulette.

How about instead of breaking the same rules that others do, you report their behavior and live up to better standards? Be the bigger man. Instead of playing this perpetual game of Russian roulette, let the other person shoot themselves in the face.

And, yes, you and I have talked about things that I have felt questionable about your rp in the past on IRC, but, frankly, I haven't seen an improvement. This is not to be taken as an insult to you, because I know you *can* rp well, but I have seen situations where you instead rp horribley. Just an example:

How often do you ask Moskher to duel you? Normally, every time I run into you, you ask Moskher to duel. Considering that I roleplay Moskher as no fighter at all, and each time you ask me to duel you, or cast a spell on you (something that Moskher can't even do), or you want to see someone cast a spell on Moskher. This makes me feel as though that instead of you seeing me and thinking that there might be an rp opportunity out of it, you think that there might be an opportunity to duel, increase your spell resistance, or see what my spell resistance is.

How do you think that makes me feel as a person? Frankly, it comes off as an insult. You don't want to play Illarion with me, you want to see how many times you can stick a sword in my character.

But anyhow, back to SVST. I've been personally assured in the past that the solution they come up with for problem players is not banning, but rather roleplaying with that character in-game (beating bad roleplaying habits with good roleplaying habits) and talking with him or her out-of-game to see if they agree that what they've done is wrong and how they could change it.

However, considering that you admit to breaking the rules right here on the board and use the excuse of others' actions, I don't see how this could be taken as an example of how a rulebreaker can change.

--Mitch

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:47 am

point taken, Mitch.
Thanks.

Well, I ask to duel everyone.

Even Alora. Just a habit.

The character is a suppressed maniac for violence.
I wish I knew earlier that you are unhappy about it. My apologies.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:05 am

Brendan, I get urked by SO many things ingame, but I dont want to whine about every single one. It would make the illarion community pissed. I could put out a list of things, but it would take a while.

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 4:05 am

Konstantin K wrote:point taken, Mitch.
Thanks.

Well, I ask to duel everyone.
Even Alora. Just a habit.

The character is a suppressed maniac for violence.
I wish I knew earlier that you are unhappy about it. My apologies.

K,

It is not that it just annoys me, though. It is that there is little rp explanation for it. Here's an example of something that you will never hear in real life:

"Hey. Could you shoot a flamethrower at me? My doctor tells me that the more times I get hit with a flamethrower, the more resistant I become to fire."

There are some things that I would consider powergaming when applied with illogical roleplaying that I wouldn't consider powergaming if applied with good roleplaying. Look at these two examples:

Example A:"Let us gather our arms and stand up to the menace that the ogres represent! For too long they have been a scourge to our fair village! Today, we stand forth and challenge them! Tomorrow this village will find peace again!"

Example B: "Hey! You want to train? Let's get some daggers and attack those ogres!"

Which seems more realistic? Which gives more reason and logic to the situation? Now, which one occurs more often in Illarion?

There are as many reasons that you could come up with to challenge all the various critters in Illarion, but few if any of them are used in my experience. Although, I would say that I can come up with no reason why one would want fire shot at them.

Again, it isn't against you, the person, K, and I know that you are neither the only guilty party nor are you the first guilty party that introduced this kind of playing, but I speak only of what I see.

Cliu Beothach wrote:Brendan, I get urked by SO many things ingame, but I dont want to whine about every single one. It would make the illarion community pissed. I could put out a list of things, but it would take a while.

Please do. I think it's fair to say that this community is more or less open. Why is it that the supporters of the SVST and the GMs are giving reasons why the SVST is a safe organization and why Illarion isn't going down the tubes, but those that disagree only say that, for the matter of kindness, they'll keep their arguments to themselves?

Give the opposition a chance to defend themselves with a real argument. Otherwise, it all seems one-sided and makes the GM's and supporters of the SVST look like they're trying to supress everyone, when that is not the case.

--Mitch

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:42 pm

Moirear Sian wrote: However, I think his sense of RP still smells like rotten fish.

Flame me.

This thread has given me the giggles. Thank you

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:40 pm

Well mitch, the reason I DONT list things because then people will act differently ingame to me.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:20 pm

I love how one person saying one sentance that he is leaving has created an eight page topic discussion! Welcome to Illarion newcomers!

Brendan Mason · Post by **Brendan Mason** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:32 pm

Kasume wrote:Welcome to Illarion newcomers!

Yes, the world where you're head is fucked with daily! Anyway, Cliu, people won't be different to you in-game. Why would they? This is a roleplaying game, and if people's roleplay changes towards you overnight because of a list of things (which, I might add, may actually benefit the game, by drawing the community's attention towards it) that you post, then surely they're not getting the point of anything, and therefore should not be shown much attention?

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:48 pm

I already know it will, people dont always follow the rules

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:36 am

I think that your action is foolish, then, Clio. When the well-being of your character matters more than the overall state of Illarion, then I would say that your point of view is skewed, and I wouldn't doubt that your opinions on why Illarion is going to hell according to some is the same.

If people were half as petty as you are saying they are, then my characters would have each been struck by lightning, eaten by ogres, and hurled into the sea by the citizenry of the whole island by now for all the arguments I've gotten into on these boards.

At this point, it would just as well suit me to believe that you have no argument at all.

--Mitch

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:56 am

Cliu Beothach wrote:Well, just RP and abide by the rules.

Martin, the board didn't stem the treatment, it may just have spread it.

What rules? I play no merchant, no smith. I play a thief and a cunning murderous snake-like assassin. I play something not implemented ingame.
Next time, when my char makes a move on your char - we will try to play by the rules.

If I playby the rules - I should sit in some cave and not ever do anything, because resistance is just so damn strong. All-seeing, all-hearing, all-knowing guards.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:53 pm

Mosh, I would list, but I just dont think it will change a thing.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:59 pm

What rules? I play no merchant, no smith. I play a thief and a cunning murderous snake-like assassin. I play something not implemented ingame.
Next time, when my char makes a move on your char - we will try to play by the rules.

Fools and idiots aren't implemented into the game either. That should become a skill in my opinion...

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:27 am

The downside is that people might powergame that skill too often.

Cliu Beothach wrote:Martin, the board didn't stem the treatment, it may just have spread it.

Regarding people with "special treatment", didn't there always exist an official group with that, called the GMs? One might presume that they had certain qualities that got them chosen for the position, even if others might not know what those qualities are. One might also presume it's the same for any other sub-groups with "special treatment". So you see, the existance of "special treatment" itself isn't the actual problem here. However, choosing the wrong person(s) to recieve the "special treatment" or giving the wrong kind of it, might be another story.

PS: I may not know what exact "special treatment" you had in mind, but if one of them is about rule breaking, I'd say that sometimes, it's a matter of percieving the situation differently, rather than actually "turning a blind eye", though I'm not saying there are no exceptions, nor do I know which might be of the cases you saw.

Oh and I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with your big picture, but you know, I'm just saying things.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:34 pm

Oh wow. How... nice.

The threads about persons mostly come from a misunderstanding of the board's sense.
It is in the sense of that board that, if someone causes much trouble, another player can speak to him on a player-player-base, for example to explain roleplay stuff etc.
It is NOT in the sense of that board to discuss punishments for people.
It can be used when GMs have not enough NPCs for a quest, to recruit someone there.
It is used to make small opinion polls sometimes, just for feedback, not for decisions. Only in VERY RARE cases, to collect opinions about characters (i.e. when the staff is already about to ban a person, but not absolutely sure yet.)
ALL things concerning punishments of chars / players will be discussed AND decided by GM's ONLY.
SVST complaints can only cause the GMs to watch the mentioned characters more closely (and of course do something if necessary).

That's the main things.

Shukk · Post by **Shukk** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:00 pm

A thing i personally do not like is, that when people do have a problem with another player, they search for a way to make him look bad in GMs eyes and speak to GMs about you but want to stay anonymous.

Wouldn't it be better to speak with the person, you have the problem with and try to solve your problems in private? And of course it would save some of the GMs time. It slightly reminds me of that people in school who ran to the teacher whenever there was something wrong, instead of solving their problems themself.

I mean: We're adults, can't we solve our problems without GMs?

Sam · Post by **Sam** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:32 pm

Shukk wrote :

I mean: We're adults, can't we solve our problems without GMs?

The problem is that most of us are adults and can take constructive criticism without making it personal but unfortunately there are some who can't. Some people also don't know the difference between discussion and "Do it my way or you're wrong."
I haven't yet fallen foul of a GM, more by luck than judgement, but I would hope that they would give me the chance to change my ways and explain where I went wrong.
If anyone sees me doing something they think is "wrong" please PM me explaining why you think that and perhaps suggest an alternative. I'll not say I'll agree with you but I'll talk it through until we are happy at least to agree to disagree.
None of us are perfect but if we're not careful we'll be too afraid to do anything incase the RP police get us.

Brendan Mason · Post by **Brendan Mason** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:55 pm

Sam wrote:we'll be too afraid to do anything incase the RP police get us.

As has been stated by GMs and players, it isn't a Roleplay Police force.

Damien wrote:It is NOT in the sense of that board to discuss punishments for people.

Martin wrote:"That means that, in average, every 2 month a thread pops up about a person, which does in average lead to nothing."

"It's mainly about controversial topics, discussion about RP and sometimes about development.
Sometimes we discuss about certain players."

"We have a broad spectrum of opinions and views there, so I guess bashing could happen but would lead to no result. "

"The first one to do that is the first one to get his ass kicked from there. It will be a great pleasure for me to do that personally and by hand."

"This is NOT any spy-division that reports"

Moskher wrote:GM's and supporters of the SVST look like they're trying to supress everyone, when that is not the case.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:16 pm

Actually, I doubt that most of the english players are adults (20?), as indicated by previous population polls and education level. Just a little factoid, regardless of any supposed maturity variations.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:50 pm

Dyluck wrote:Actually, I doubt that most of the english players are adults (20?), as indicated by previous population polls and education level. Just a little factoid, regardless of any supposed maturity variations.

How charming

Im afraid i am a Adult, yet i would still say the younger players have more qualifications than myself.

Sam · Post by **Sam** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:32 pm

Brendan I didn't make myself clear, sorry.

I didn't mean that the new board or even the GMs are the RP police. I meant that some players set themselves up in such a role and have the "Do it my way or you're wrong." attitude. That was in reply to Shukks "aren't we all adults?" point.

I believe the GMs are needed to help run events and also to steer, and ocassionally slap, wrong doers. GMs are also human, or so it's rumoured, and so may make the odd mistake. This is why we need discussion. A board where they can discuss things between themselves is not a bad thing, in fact I'm in favour of it.

one thing I would like to change about my previous post is the part about PMing me. If preferable, the person can bring up my behaviour on the boards, NOT to start a flame war but so that hopefully all could learn from one mistake. I am not perfect and if some one can point out how I can play better then I'm all for it.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:03 am

Wise call, BH.