Belts / Item Carry Capacity

[Moirear Sian]

Alright, as I understand, it seems to be an issue about how many potions (or generally items) people carry around and can use. Here are some of my proposals to work against it:

1. • Limit the basic six inventory fields (the "belt") to capacities of 2 items each (any item), totaling at 12 possible items you can carry on your body without a bag.
   
   • Add a new inventory field for belts on the character equipment field. Having no belt could permit two items per field (12 items), a standard belt enables you to carry 3 (18 items), and a bandolier lets you hold 4 items on each belt field (24 items).
   
   • Add two new items: Belt & Bandolier
   
   • Include the possiblitiy for a tailor to create the Belt and the Bandolier from leather.
   
   • Disable drinking potions/bottles from the bag or depot inventory fields
   
   • Disable drinking potions/bottles when the red target reticle has marked your target.

Reasonings:
It would put more emphasis onto how you occupy those six basic fields.
It would also give more importance to simple bags in transporting larger amounts of raw materials.
While the belts not being completely logical/realistic about how you carry things on your body, they would balance out alot of issues like unlogical potion use in combat, and encourage slightly more character interaction.

What does everybody think?

Edit: I was asked via IM what a bandolier is. To explain a bandolier, imagine a tool-belt it has lots of latches or "holsters" where you can insert tools or other items. It would obviously require a skilled tailor to make one.

[Drogla]

I like the idea very much

[Misjbar]

Yes, this is a very good idea. Makes it impossible to carry 30 ore just in your belt (Very odd thing indeed)

[Drathe]

*Chuckles* I don’t mean to sound like I am always on about bows and arrows… BUT!

Quivers

With regards what has been said about carrying items, belts and bags. I know this has been brought up in the past but I feel this thread would be a good place to reiterate it. A quiver could take the place of a bag on the Character item box.

Where the bag gives the player a large amount of carrying space the quiver would give you very little. Say… two squares, these squares would still work just like that of a bag. (Cross)bows would still be used by placing them in the characters hand, and arrows in the other. But by wearing the quiver it would make the characters shooting rate faster.

The idea being that the arrows are easier drawn from the quiver than a bag. The increased rate of fire the quiver would give a player using a bow would balance the limited capacity the player suffers from swapping it with a bag.

[Moirear Sian]

Drathe, defender of the bow.

Quivers. Great idea, imo.

[Dyluck]

I would've thought that choosing between a huge platemail or having more potions would even out the differences enough, but I've got nothing against your proposal.

Anyways, on a rather large side note, the reasoning about what seems to be an "issue" just reminded me of a little observation in general. It just seems to me that over the last year or two, people around here are so gungho about getting to successfully finish off the kill of another player in combat without hassle.

Almost every other fighting proposal has some kind of infulence from trying to get rid of any possiblity of any escape or survival for the one who holds the weaker cards. It seems to me that the competitive aspect of combat has become nothing more than watching red x's and waiting for the computated rolls of pre-determined values for skills and armor selection. What I mean is that any strategic action you could possibly take in the ACTUAL face of battle to change its outcome seems to have become minimal, whereas in older days, combat used to be for the strong AND the quick-witted. But unfortunately it seems that whenever some innovative idea gets used, someone else who hadn't thought of it themselves will complain and call it a loophole until our technicians are sold and throw it in the trash.

Take the huge delay that was added to jumping, for example (I highly doubt I'm just lagging). Just that alone has taken away a miriad of options for someone who could have beaten the odds if they knew how to use that option properly. The maneuverability that you could get with that used to make a strategic difference in things like close combat near a lot of magic fields, getting into position to use poison, fending off enemies with a long weapon, dodging mages without wands, escape, etc. For example, a less experienced person trying to run away might go east and then north, while a more experienced cunning chaser might anticipate where his prey is running to, and head him off by "jumping" northeast. That's where experience and foresight used to make a difference. It's just subtle little things like that, which used to make combat/competitive interaction more fun, when your wits in the heat of action would influence the outcome. I just can't imagine what in-battle strategies (at least for one-man combat) you could possibly apply or teach these days, from what I understand, although I might not know if there was, since I don't play anymore of course.

[Gro'bul]

Graphics for these things would be easy. Yes I remember proposing a leather quiver some time ago. I think they are good ideas, but as far as I can tell a bandolier was only used for firearm ammunition. Call me crazy ,but I would not want fragile glass inbetween myself in my armor, the bottles cold be broken very easily. Wearing them on the outside makes them even more prone to being broken and shattered. If this were implemented I would want it so you could not use a bandolier when wearing plate. A bag would be for rations or something, and you could not easily access your belt. I just say make characters unable to "use" anything while fighting.

[Kasume]

Towards the inventory change idea and sort. Nice idea. Best one I've actually liked for a while.

Although towards Dyluck.

Take the huge delay that was added to jumping, for example (I highly doubt I'm just lagging). Just that alone has taken away a miriad of options for someone who could have beaten the odds if they knew how to use that option properly. The maneuverability that you could get with that used to make a strategic difference in things like close combat near a lot of magic fields, getting into position to use poison, fending off enemies with a long weapon, dodging mages without wands, escape, etc. For example, a less experienced person trying to run away might go east and then north, while a more experienced cunning chaser might anticipate where his prey is running to, and head him off by "jumping" northeast. That's where experience and foresight used to make a difference. It's just subtle little things like that, which used to make combat/competitive interaction more fun, when your wits in the heat of action would influence the outcome. I just can't imagine what in-battle strategies (at least for one-man combat) you could possibly apply or teach these days, from what I understand, although I might not know if there was, since I don't play anymore of course.

Was the push command really removed? Not sure on that one.
Although I think the biggest complaint was this.
Not everyone could do it. As I certainly couldn't. An unfair advantage to those with faster connections or better computers. Which then boils down to OOC. As I remember complaining about it once in the technical area.

Though, I'm not sure it was removed. Was it?

[Dyluck]

I didn't say pushing was removed, but I was talking about the huge delay that was added to it after each push/jump.

Personally, I thought I could do it as well as anyone, if not better, on my old crappy dail up/pentium-less computer, so I would think that your inability was a matter of not knowing the exact proper technique, as different "speeds" could be achieved, depending on certain timing/technique factors. However, I don't deny that connection/computer could also have "interupting" effects, but that would be true for just about any activity in Illarion anyways.

Anyways, just so I contribute some more to the main proposal instead of just going off topic, maybe someday we could go as far as to only be able to carry arrows in a quiver and not in the bag, and swords in a sheath, etc. Tailors can then make those things, and maybe if they insists on carrying weapons in a bag and they rip, then even more business comes for the tailors. Yay.

[Konstantin K]

I agree with Dyluck.
Jumping/pushing is made too slow.
War axe users rule the battlefield now, they can just stay at one place, and rarely move.
Wands that auto-trigger the target make it impossible to jump around the mage's spells.
Where is prediction? I kind of liked it when mages had to know (guess) where to cast to hit their target, and casting on themselves used to kill them.
On the contrary, archers are really slow. Even with decent skills - arrows do little damage to monsters, and slow down walking speed greatly.
In practice a skilled archer would have good chances against a person running at them with a war axe.
Ingame - no chance.

[Moirear Sian]

I would not want fragile glass inbetween myself in my armor, the bottles cold be broken very easily. Wearing them on the outside makes them even more prone to being broken and shattered.

If this were implemented I would want it so you could not use a bandolier when wearing plate. A bag would be for rations or something, and you could not easily access your belt. I just say make characters unable to "use" anything while fighting.

I agree.

Targeting reticle off items usable.
Targeting reticle on items unusable.

[Cassandra Fjurin]

You really know how to discourage the Programmers.

http://forum.illarion.org/viewtopic.php ... ht=pushing

This is the reason why we implemented the push delay. Now its bad. What should we do? The best way i think is to stop the server development.

[Moirear Sian]

I had hoped this thread would concentrate itself on the belts/bandoliers/carrying capacity and its relevance generally throughout the game, not just for combat.

If anybody else feels like discussing the silly jumping speed (which is fine the way it is imho), open a new thread for it please.

If everybody would stay on-topic like Drathe's proposal about Quivers, or Gro'bul's statement that consumable items shouldn't be consumable at all in combat, it would be considerably easier to discuss things while staying on topic, and for me to compile all the useful proposals into the initial post for the programmers to implement.

Don't piss the programmers off, they're the architects of your pleasure. :]

[Dyluck]

Not that it's a problem or anything, but your idea of no item usage during combat would cancel out Bror's age old reasoning that you lose your bottles after drinking because you throw them away in the heat of combat. I always did found it amusing to imgaine people chugging potions and smashing them onto the ground just for the heck of it.

You really know how to discourage the Programmers.

http://forum.illarion.org/viewtopic.php ... ht=pushing

This is the reason why we implemented the push delay. Now its bad. What should we do?

To answer your question, you should get more/better opinions, instead of locking a topic after less than 10 posts and then trusting the opinion of a measly 5 players. In fact, ONLY the creator of that thread actually called it a "problem". Nobody else on that thread did. Even if someone wanted to say something about it, they could not, since it was locked.
Getting some actual in-game experience to try things in realistic situations instead of going theoretically would help too, but I guess you don't have the time, which is why it's even more important to do a better job of getting opinions.

[Moirear Sian]

Not that it's a problem or anything, but your idea of no item usage during combat would cancel out Bror's age old reasoning that you lose your bottles after drinking because you throw them away in the heat of combat.

Nope.

• Player 1 CTRL-Clicks Player 2 + #me attacks
• Player 1 CTRL-Clicks Player 2 to stop attacking & chugs a potion, tossing it to the ground and breaking it
• Player 1 CTRL-Clicks Player 2 again to resume fighting.

[Dyluck]

True true, my vivid imagery of chung&smash lives on, then. Although there's still the reverse side that one would be able to drink potions while his opponent is whacking away at him, while his opponent can't drink while attacking. It's a little early, but I can already think of a few crude bait&kill-group-situations that might result from this "one-side handicap". Just some of the finer details to consider.

By the way, you also reminded me about how people are also so gungho about using #me commands in battles these days. It used to be a luxury that could only be afforded by those with time and power, but now it''s like every second complain I hear about combat ettiquette has something to do with #me commands. Not that I have a problem with people using them or anything.

[Kasume]

You really know how to discourage the Programmers.

http://forum.illarion.org/viewtopic.php ... ht=pushing

This is the reason why we implemented the push delay. Now its bad. What should we do? The best way i think is to stop the server development.

I didn't say it was bad.

[Moirear Sian]

1.) the reverse side that one would be able to drink potions while his opponent is whacking away at him, while his opponent can't drink while attacking.
2.) I can already think of a few crude bait&kill-group-situations that might result from this "one-side handicap".

1.) Well, you'd still be taking damage when the other person is attacking you (right? ). which could therefore effectively annulate the use of the potion in the first place, thus balancing it a bit. And if the attacker wants to drink something he'd have to stop attacking as well.
How are you going to lug a two-handed warhammer, a greatsword, or a war-axe into your foe and chug down a potion at the same time?
I believe this would encourage team-combat a bit more, as well.
2.) I'm all ears. Err, and eyes.

And your input on the #me-commands in combat reminds me, why not have an automatic "#me attacks (target name)" for people who attack?

[Dyluck]

A crude example would be a P1A provoking an attack from P2, and then when P2 attacks P1A while P1A chugs down potions (apparently recovering more health than the damage he recieves, hence the idea of disabling potions), and suddenly P1B pops out of nowhere and opens a can of whoop ass on P2 who is unable to kill P1A NOR recover from P1B's attack without extra delay. The problem here is the unrealistic way P1A will be used as a potion-chugging-non-fighting-back-bait to trap P2, because the guy swinging his warhammer can't find the time to drink, yet the guy defending the warhammer somehow can.

As for why not the auto-#me: probably programming difficulty, and come to think of it, probably spams like "#me forms silent..."

[Kasume]

To answer your question, you should get more/better opinions, instead of locking a topic after less than 10 posts and then trusting the opinion of a measly 5 players. In fact, ONLY the creator of that thread actually called it a "problem". Nobody else on that thread did. Even if someone wanted to say something about it, they could not, since it was locked.
Getting some actual in-game experience to try things in realistic situations instead of going theoretically would help too, but I guess you don't have the time, which is why it's even more important to do a better job of getting opinions.

The only two other people replying, were the ones that did it.
The point was, you cannot catch nor run from people with a computer advantage.

[Moirear Sian]

I believe this would encourage team-combat a bit more, as well.

A crude example would be a P1A provoking an attack from P2, and then when P2 attacks P1A while P1A chugs down potions (apparently recovering more health than the damage he recieves, hence the idea of disabling potions), and suddenly P1B pops out of nowhere and opens a can of whoop ass on P2 who is unable to kill P1A NOR recover from P1B's attack without extra delay. The problem here is the unrealistic way P1A will be used as a potion-chugging-non-fighting-back-bait to trap P2, because the guy swinging his warhammer can't find the time to drink, yet the guy defending the warhammer somehow can.

What exactly is unrealistic about team-combat, baiting, and traps?
I do think we agree, except for that one word discerning whether it's realistic or not.

Edit: Now I get it. You mean that the guy defending can drink while the other attacks. Ever played Tenchu, Stealth Assassins? It's a 3d-action-adventure game in a ninja/asian-style setting - and if you try to drink potions in a melee in that game, the opponenents try to smack them out of your hand, and they most oftenly succeed if you're too close to them.
You're proposing something like that for the sake of realism, do I understand correctly?
But- applying this to the current combat system in illarion - don't you think it's already balanced out enough by A) the energy replenishes only slowly from a potion, B) you actually can't attack while you're drinking, C) you can't really discern between walking/running, D) you can't even see the combat movements in the graphics?

[Dyluck]

Nono, I'm not proposing anything. I'm just pointing out some minor problems of the attacker-side-only-handicap. It's hard to say which advantages/disadvantages will be more prevailant, but as I observed, I guess there seems more emphasis on trying to finish off your enemy these days. I tend to be more towards survival/escape allowances in battle, since it allows more roleplay possibilty, plus skills are precious hard to gain, yaddy yaddy yadda. But hey, I don't play the game now, so I guess it's not too big a deal to me.

What I'm saying is unrealistic about the bait-trap scenario, is someone standing there, receiving stab wounds like it's nothing by chugging potions in order to bait an enemy into his new "item disability" state. It also seems unfair when it resulted from a one-sided reasoning that one can't drink while swinging your sword, and yet hadn't applied while one has to block/parry a sword.

But about point A: If that were true, then why would item usage in combat be a complaint at all? Honestly, people don't make a big deal out of things like this unless it affected their effectiveness to kill things, right?


@Kasume: Only if assuming that from your opinion alone thus far, it is infact hardware related (in which case you are pretty much disadvantaged in most other areas of competitive interaction anyways), rather than a technique execution error on your part.

[Adano Eles]

I see no problem with item usage in combat. A potion chugging bait is almost impossible to do the way potions regenerate health now.
If there really is an unfair advantage of people using certain items in battle (which I don't see), I think a better way to solve this would be to open up your defence for this moment. For example that you can't parry while drinking potions, or something similar.

[Dyluck]

So then that brings back the question, that if potions now regenerate health significantly slower than you can you be damaged, then why is potion usage in battle such a big deal to some people at all in the first place? Apparently item usage in battle shoudln't be causing much of a problem then.

[Moirear Sian]

Dyluck, consider the other proposals at the top of this thread (item number limits to the belt, bandoliers, disabling of drinking potions from your bag).

People who drink 56 potions straight out of their bag, regardless of potion energy regeneration times, are obviously the problem here.

If there really is an unfair advantage of people using certain items in battle (which I don't see), I think a better way to solve this would be to open up your defence for this moment. For example that you can't parry while drinking potions, or something similar.

I don't really see it either, but I guess that proposal could be reserved if people would find ways to abuse it.

[Gro'bul]

You know we could always have leather sheathes and wooden scabbards. Highly decorated metal sheaths would be a luxery item. Say a blacksmith could make a simple sheath, or engraved and decorated sheathes. However a gold smith could take a simple sheath and adorn it with gold engraving and make an even more rediculously expensive sheath. Where else would you keep your sword or dagger when your not using it?

[Moirear Sian]

I wouldn't say no to those items.

Following that thought, how about if weapons rot in your inventory as well as on the ground if not placed into those sheaths or wrapped up in rags (as the cheapest possible alternative to sheaths)?

[Dyluck]

People who drink 56 potions straight out of their bag, regardless of potion energy regeneration times, are obviously the problem here.

I don't see the obvious problem here. You can sew and do carpentry, all in the convenience of your bag, and yet the little guys just can't catch a break in the spotlight with Mr. Potion, can they? So forgive me if I'm not convinced that using things straight out of the bag is the real cause for people's concern (For people in general, not just you), rather than it being the potion's influence on battle, which has already changed.

About weapon rot: Maybe they can rip your bag and fall out. Then you get more business for tailors.

[Moirear Sian]

I guess I'm one of the few people who puts tools to work into my character's hands before I let the character work, sometimes even changing the whole outfit.

No objection whatsoever if none of the tools items can be used from the bag. In fact I'd welcome that change. I like the idea of bags tearing as well, but from the technical aspect of it, how do you propose should it be implemented that bags tear in illarion?

[Hermie]

If you needed a sheath for every sword you had, blacksmiths would be a little peaved. Wouldn't they just wrap a bunch of swords in some tough fabric, leather perhaps, if they were taking them to town?
Not to mention that last time I tried I could put multiple items on my hands too. This probably changed since the new client .. or something.