Skills - one master skill only

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Mon Jul 01, 2002 7:36 pm

What do people think about only being able to master one skill. Basically my idea is that you can learn as many skills as you like but there are only a certain amount of skill points available. Therefore if you master one skill then the higher you train other skills the lower your master skill gets. This way you can be either a jack of all trades or master of one. This would help increase trade as people would not be masters in everything and will need to buy materials and items from others.

Ney'Tara · Post by **Ney'Tara** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 12:45 am

Won't that kill the vast majority of the players, who are all blacksmiths and therefore miners ?

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:53 am

I'm talking about the next time there's a major change in the game and people have to start from scratch again anyway. Your point about blacksmiths being miners is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't think You would expect to find a blacksmith in a mine. By seperating the skills and being either a master miner OR a master blacksmith surely you would increase trade and therefore give more meaning to your work.

Setherioth · Post by **Setherioth** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:56 pm

i don't think it's a very good idea. It doesn't take very long to master a skill some longer then others and if it were put into effect people who have been around for years would be about as good as people who have been around for ammonth skill wise. Besides people like learning new skills and its a challenge to master them.

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 7:38 pm

Again my point exactly. It doesn't take long to master a skill so if you can make the best of everything reasonably quickly then why bother to buy anything. People give away fireswords and knights armour because it has no value as every one and his dog can already make it. As to the problem of mastering a skill too quickly maybe it needs to be made harder to master. You mentioned about learning new skills. You can still learn them with my system but if you take the learning too far then your master skill suffers. I think we need to encourage trade or there is little reason to make anything otherwise.

Ney'Tara · Post by **Ney'Tara** » Wed Jul 03, 2002 1:16 am

You can make a skill as hard to learn as you want, as long as there is a roof to the how high you can get that skill, people will always reach that roof.

Also I realized some loopholes in your idea. First off, won't it dramatically decrease the playability of the game ? Also, what is to stop someone with some amount of time to first mine their behinds off, stuff the ore and coal in a chest and then pick up blacksmithing again ?
A positive and negative thing would be the grouping of people, where one mines and the other smiths, this encourages roleplaying but only worsens the market..

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Wed Jul 03, 2002 1:53 am

I don't understand how it would decrease the playability of the game. If anything, in my opinion, it would improve it by increasing the need for trade and therefore interaction with other characters. It would also give meaning to the work you put into making items. At the moment I see people giving away things to new players which take mastery to make but there is no market for. You are right in saying that there is nothing in my system to stop people mining large amounts of ore and coal and then going back to blacksmithing. The thing is though that the more they mine and increase mining skill the lower their blacksmithing skill would get. If the skills are set hard enough to get, then surely it would be easier to buy the ore and coal? I'm not claiming my system is perfect but I feel at the moment this is holding the game back from being a proper role playing game. If everyone can master everything there is no demand and therefore no market.

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:11 am

Me again. I don't know if I explained my system properly or not. You can master any one skill and learn to make the basics of all the others. You can however change your master. if, for instance, you master blacksmithing and have basics in all other skills and then decide to master carpentry you can. The skill level of your blacksmithing will decrease as your carpentry increases until you are a master carpenter and a basic blacksmith. The other way of using the system is to not master anything but be able to to get to level two or three or whatever on all or some of the skills. to use an example :- lets say there are 5 skills. you start off with 50 skill points. To master one skill takes 30 skill points. This leaves 5 points each for the basics on the other skills or you can take one other skill up to 20 points. you can mix and match as much as you like. This will make sure you are only master or near master in the skills you use the most. The lower skills will decrease first as the higher ones increase.

flak · Post by **flak** » Sat Jul 06, 2002 1:44 am

yeah, i like this idea. people could then start some kind of buisines or somthing where there are a few miners and a few blackmithers and then at the end of their day they sell there stuff and share the money between them. i like it as well because i am a master carpenter and i think ive sold about 2 wands in my life because lots of peole are masters at every thing so somtimes i just give stuff away to my friends. this could also stop pk's, because pk's are usualy newbies who have got some good equipment from someone who is trying to be master blacksmith for free. if they had to go and make the armour them self's then it would give them enough time to get to know what this game is about. Mabey..

Likwid Air · Post by **Likwid Air** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:32 am

Orrrrrr this idea would encourage people to make many accounts with separate skills and trading items between accounts would become the norm.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:50 pm

So basically, If i could swing a hammer, i couldnt do the same with the shovel?

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:45 pm

Sorry for the delay in replying but I've been on my hols. You are right Likwid in that this would encourage a certain type of person to "cheat" but I think they will do so any way. I'm sure that there are a few druids out there who make free magic arrows and mana potions for their alter egos. It's not these people my idea is aimed at. My idea is for people who are trying to role play but can't as there is no market and therefore no point in being a craftsperson.
Caranthir I accept your point that if you have the strength to wield a hammer you should be able to wield a spade but carry that logic on and you'll see that a blacksmith with big rough hands might have problems being a master tailor. It's not only the strength that's a requirement though, it's also the time it takes. Don't forget that in my system you can be a fairly good miner and a fairly good blacksmith, just not a master of both.

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:00 am

This skill system idea is brilliance. As said; by only being able to master one skill it WILL make for players e.g, capenters buying from lumber jacks which will make for more interaction. It will set each trade apart from one another. Rather than just being a carpenter/lumber jack or miner/blacksmith. Some one said "wouldnt people just make multiple accounts and get past the system that way" dont they already! and besides the poeple who do are not the people who are wanted in the game. With this new system it will make the whole econamy of the game work. If everybodys a blacksmith (like they are now haha) then there will be a gap in the market for miners.

And another thing, None of these SMACC thungs going round bullying people into selling for thier prices, there will be only so manycraftsmen in each trade because to many in one will make a gap in another trade which will be to good an oppertunity to miss for making money for someone. Prices will naturaly find their own level. It will make the crafting side of the game balanced. Its a brilliant system and its perfect for this game I think, no I dont think I know.

Its up to the "gods" tho but im totaly with you

Ney'Tara · Post by **Ney'Tara** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:48 am

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like the idea, is that I look further as how it will be in a year.

Perhaps you can find a solution to this hypothetical situation:
Someone, someone who doesn't really like to roleplay too much, decides to be a lumberjack. Now, this person becomes very addicted with trading wood to a carpenter and then buying items at the blacksmith, and all goes fair and well untill this someone has all the items he could want from the blacksmith. Naturally, he's a bit dazzled on what to go for next, seeing as he spent his entire RP'ing carreer as a lumberjack, but also saw alot of the carpenter and the other fields, he's not willing to start over as another carreer, as he can clearly see that that will not make the game a totally different game for him. This leaves him with two choices, he either quits the game, perhaps causing a gap and a lack of wood for the carpenter. Or, and that's what I fear more than the gap which can be filled up by a bored player, he can stay and, to help newbies to the game, give his wood or his items that he purchased at the blacksmith away or sell them for a cheap price. Why would he do that, you might wonder, it's being done at this very moment, so it's not unlikely that it can happen there, too.

That's just one 'someone', but what if this happens on a larger scale ?

flak · Post by **flak** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 6:43 pm

this idea is great but if you put it together with smacc, it would solve a lot of problems with the infamous "bored player"

bring back smacc!

Negatai · Post by **Negatai** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:02 pm

It takes years to master a skill. If aging is incorporated into the game, people will keep that in mind and therefore will have time to master only a few skills anyway...

Chyan Guo Messenger · Post by **Chyan Guo Messenger** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:44 pm

i really doubt i will like it if it takes years to work welll at my proffesion... natrually i dont want every skill either.... i choose some.

as for fighting the same...... like..... i may not like using axes over staffs ect.

the style is the same...

i hope age doesnt mean how long your character lasts.... (gulp)
.... well then again... if its baced in real life time he he he... it will last my lifetime. or over!
lucky elves.... 6000 years.....

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 10:56 pm

Thanks for the support Drathe. You have hit the nail on the head. The only thing that stops this game from being as good as it can be is the lack of NEED for trade. People don't interact as much as they might as they don't have to. If this was a real world then we would need bakers who rely on farmers who rely on carpenters and blacksmiths ...etc.
Ney'Tara you ask what would happen if a master lumberjack got bored and couldn't be bothered to put in the effort to master another skill. Would he give up the game, possibly causing harm to the carpenter, or would he just start to give away, or sell cheap, his wood and tools? In my opinion there would be enough lumberjacks to keep things going until the gap was filled. Perhaps while there is a gap, the price of wood might go up and thus tempt new players to take up the trade. The price of wooden goods might also go up as a knock on effect. There might even be price wars. As for giving away or selling cheaply his wood and tools he wouldn't do it for long as there would be no point. In the real world when someone goes out of business they sell their tools and things cheaply. The point is it would be more real. I came to Illarion because it said it was a role playing game. A game where you could just be a simple farmer if you wanted to. There is no point in having a trade if no-one wants your product. People give things away now because nobody, except newbies, need them and everyone is making them. At least my system means they can only give one type of product away.

Chyan Guo Messenger · Post by **Chyan Guo Messenger** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:32 am

.... i think i like the current way, i and many others still buy from others.. why?
i dont want to learn all the skills..... some are boring... there is no rank for them.... and a extra item on your list doesnt mean its good.

people will get the idea to stick to basics.... unless their purpose was never intended to play this as a rpg but a PK or such and such.

Ney'Tara · Post by **Ney'Tara** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:27 am

Right on Ellaron, now your system is better in enough ways than the current one. And I like your solution of 'At least my system means they can only give one type of product away.' I fully support that this way should be the new way for Illarion.

Chyan Guo Messenger · Post by **Chyan Guo Messenger** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:15 pm

just as long as blacksmithing comes with the option of mining too.....

some items are a bit hard.... i dont think even with their value its going to make you a profit.
i think yes, choose a profession....but let there be more than one maybe....
and you have the skill needed to do so....

like i said, a carpenter still needs a axe.....
a fisherman needs his rod.

and maybe the economy can run of foods for real! in the market, food is ... sold cheaper lets say, but they are based on how many fish the fisherman sells, and how many buys.... the more fish, the cheaper, the less money he gets, so lets hope people buys......
plus, you cant summon trouts or cakes....... can you?

Kaleyka · Post by **Kaleyka** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:09 pm

I think it is a horrible idea. Some people like to try to master the whole game, not just one part of it. It would take away from the funfor some people. I think you should just drop the idea.

Chyan Guo Messenger · Post by **Chyan Guo Messenger** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:35 pm

"Some people like to try to master the whole game"

that supports what lloyd brought up.
in real life do you try to master everything in life?
i dont agree with mastering everything too.... i like the way it is now... i dont wish to master everything, but still can choose all that intrest me.
you dont get ranks, power ect for mastering everything, that is good.... why waste you time?
also, the game isnt about MASTERING EVERYTHING anyway.

(Edited by Chyan Guo Messenger at 10:36 pm on July 18, 2002)

Teesh · Post by **Teesh** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 7:57 pm

I think thats a great idea. I am a merchant and i have to say the economy is very flat now.

@Kaleyka: I know that many folks like to master all of the skills, but look at the main Illarion rules... it says: "No powergaming!". Thats the idea of this world, thats how 'gods' made this world and i believe and hope they wont change it. I think that folks that want to master all of the skill should change to another game or get to like this one and start to really role play. Such kind of mastering is not role playing at all. Even in a fantasy world like this or maybe especially in such a world there were no omnibuses knowing everything. One was a blacksmith with his workshop, another one spent his all life mining, maybe searching for gold, another one was a great warrior all his life, going for every battle, a mage is a mage and he doesn't care about smithing, carpentry or killing pigs for leather... I am sure that everyone should have his own chosen profession and be able to master only it, except a really little basic knowledge of other skills. For example a blacksmith can make rolls, because its so easy to make for everyone, but i have no idea how a blacksmith could know how to make a delicious strawberry cake

@Chyan Guo: Like i said i dont believe that in the midcentury one was both, for example: a blacksmith and a miner. A blacksmith was buying from miners. A blacksmith usually had better manual abilities than a miner. Otherwise the miner would want to be a blacksmith, because of better money. Yes, probably there were a few blacksmith and miners in one person, but im sure that then they had no time to practice any other skills at all. As Ellaron said: one could master only one skill and learn a bit of the others. So if one will learn blacksmithing and mining, he will be very good at both (but not a master in any), also he will almost not be able to do anything else. I believe its very realistic and roleplayable and reasonable and r..r..r..

)

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 9:36 pm

Well I think that all that can be said has been. I still believe that my system, or something like it, would improve the game. I think too many people like to max out the stats on their characters and so do not support the idea. Never mind, Illarion is still a brilliant game and I shall still play it. Thankyou to all who had an input into this proposal, for and against.

Chyan Guo Messenger · Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:40 pm

@ Teesh.
guess what teesh, in the "midevil" days, the blacksmith didnt buy their ores, the slaves would work in the mines for food. Peasants and Slaves treated like TRASH. Go ahead, follow the mid-evil ways, lets all have slavery added to the game. +miners naturally wasnt paid much. Not even close to 1 gold coin per ore...... the head master might get rich off of them though..

Sure, you can buy from the miners, problem is lots have to change, you will have to start out with money and supplies... i mean, who makes the shovel for the miners?This is also a game, there isnt work hours, its not like i can go to the mine at 3pm and find a miner with things to sell. I rather work on that part myself. But lets say i dont like tailering, when i need leather, he can get that too me. Dont force us to choose what to be. Let us choose for ourselves.
Like i said, its a mining pit, blacksmiths can very well go into a mine and get the ores themselves, its slower. They would be albe to make the tools for others and themselves. If you supply a MINING JOB to others, you can make them into mining workers, give them pay while you get a FASTER supply ores which you might even start a own company to make weapons and hire more blacksmiths and lets stop there... you get the point. its too complicated. Stick to the basics. Right now, its works kind of fine. Like i said at some other post,
----- let them choose for themselves, this game ISNT about mastering everything...
if they want to be self-sufficent, let them... if not, so it be!

Teesh · Post by **Teesh** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 11:47 am

Sorry Chyan, but i cant agree... i really like Ellaron's and others ideas. It will be much more playable and roleplayable when changed.

Chyan Guo Messenger · Post by **Chyan Guo Messenger** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:16 pm

i say keep it the same, again.
if not, make it a profession system with "sub-proffessions".

One main and a couple, 2-4 others as extras or helping proffessions. We dont have a army of workers, and goverment system, this game hasnt reached that size and complication. Lets not make things more Complicated. I much rather see improvements on others things. So far the Theme works just fine for me.

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:35 am

Ok so maybe everything that could be said hasn't been ;o). Is this a good time to admit I might of got it wrong. I have just spent two days trying to find a blacksmith to buy some knights kit from, and this when "everyone is making everything". I still believe we need something to stop "the give aways" and to boost trade but I don't think the game is big enough yet to support my idea. That's not to say we shouldn't think of another way of doing it though. I also see the problem of a miner getting paid a lot less than a blacksmith. How about each item taking a certain amout of ore and coal to make eg a knights shield takes 50 ore and 50 coal to make. The shield sells at 250G the ore and coal cost 1G each. Therefore the miner makes 100G and the blacksmith 150G. On second thoughts maybe I'm just complicating a good game. I have met people who have been in the game for over a year so it's obviously got something right going for it.
Don't forget, "For your potion needs, come and see Ellaron. You've tried the best now come and see me" ((slogan writer urgently required)).

Teesh · Post by **Teesh** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 1:54 pm

Ellaron, i have already proposed that (because i like this idea too) and people seem to like it, check here:

http://pc-cad0.informatik.unibw-muenche ... &topic=365