Game rules - should be developed

[Bror]

As long as there are no rules, how to behave, it is hard to punish someone for a behaviour that doesn't follow the non-existing rules

I asked a while ago for proposals for rules, how to behave in the game (+on the board), but there were only very few answers. Since once again stupid murdering and misbehavior takes control of the game, I'll try and ask again.
A second thing, that should be developed parallel is an RPG guide (what is RPG, how to behave...)

I would like to gather and discuss rules here, that might handle the situation. It would be nice, if someone would moderate this thread (since I haven't got much time+I am away this weekend).

I would like to mention two threads I posted before, that are related:

Rules:
http://pc-cad0.informatik.unibw-muenche ... &topic=121

RPG (see also FAQ):
http://pc-cad0.informatik.unibw-muenche ... &topic=126

The rules could include:
- general part (the usual: "this is a game", "don't take serious", "behave like you want others to behave towards you"....
- board behavior (also consequences in game for misbehavior on the board?)
- in game behaviour (PK, multiple PK, newbie PK, powergaming (definition?), AFK-powergaming, cussing, non-RPG-behavior, character names, macro using, using two clients at once...)


Another thing, that might be needed is a system to request a new character via email. In some games, you can't create an account yourself. You have to write an email to a GM, describe your characters background story and your thoughts about roleplaying. The GM then creates your account, if he thinks you are worthy. This could hinder non RPG-players from getting into the game (and hinder banned players from creating a new char right after beeing banned). The quality of the game would be greatly improved. The drawback is, that much less players would play, i.e. mostly empty server.
I will start a voting on how many people would request a character via email (although I think, that many players who don't read the board would not request and not vote) and would like to have your thoughts about that system.

[Bror]

The polls about the email application have been installed. Click on Feedback->Votings

PLEASE VOTE everyone.

[Damien]

Hmmm. That system has something... but, It would be much work for the GMs, and it would scare some perhaps good players away.
Better would be, as you said, a roleplay guide, perhaps inside character generation.
What about an "account generation" ? One could log in with this "account", and manage Characters from there. The account should have the name of the first character. That could reduce name trouble.
Such an Account login could provide entering with more than one character at the same time ( perhaps allowed for GMs to log in twice ). And such an account menu could have a help option, perhaps a training thing - and a roleplay introduction, perhaps in form of a short storyline example, where one has to choose possible answers and that is to complete after the first login. That means, one HAS to read the simple text that is relevant to complete the thing in giving the right answers, i.e. the answers parts of understanding the text about roleplay.
Next thing : perhaps a criminal status system can help. If the city bridges have guards, and perhaps city walls with guarded gates, or just guard NPCs in the city itself, at tactical relevant points, such Guard NPCs could attack Criminals.
Criminal status could be reached for attacking a player, and last for about three to five hours of playing time. Everytime when a player is attacked without attacking first (within some time period), or killed, this gets up the criminal flag for the attacker.
The guards coud hit the attacker, and bring/teleport him to a prison or court prison. From there, he could work as a mine slave, or different jobs (digging up raw gems and gold, the only accepted things to pay the way out) . So he has to reach an amount of money or raw gems to pay for a one-use-key to get out.
This could deal with PKs IN TOWN in a roleplay way.
The catched criminal could get a message like :
"The Guards suddenly grab you as they recognize your face. You are being brought to town prison immediately."

So, a criminal can still keep out of sight of the guards - of course, other players could try to bring him to these guards... or a call guard to him.

Important for the attacking system may be : If you attack a person who has attacked another one (or yourself) before, within ten minutes or likewise, you are marked as an attacker. If an attacker is attacked, that does not set the criminal flag. If an attacker kills another one, he gets the criminal flag. IF another non-criminal person is near (Witness!).
Another idea is, when this witness reaches a guard alive, and types #report (or likewise), the criminal flag on the criminal is set... So the badguy has a chance of getting out this situation.

This could keep town itself quite free and save. The guards must not be god-like fighters with super equipment (as in several other RPGs) but have the ability to "grab" (teleport) a criminal.
A person could have a "disguise" skill. But with maximum attribute and maxed disguise skill (appearing as someone to introduced persons) Town Guards should always have a minimum recognition chance of at least 30%. (because they can closely search people who enter and are trained to recognize even a good false beard hehe).
Perhaps a new thing could be used for the disguise skill - a false beard ? =)
(in place of amulet)

[Taun Kahartuum]

Thanx Bror, you are doing great work...

if you need some help..mail!

[Bror]

@Damien: I can't see how an account itself can help to handle the situation. I see no real difference between a one character account like now, or a multiple character account. The only difference would be, that you don't need to request a 2nd character via email.

I would like to have rules, that are maintained by GMs.
1. I don't have time to create lots of server code just to try to find a player that does a crime. There are more important things to code.
2. A computer simply can't judge, what is a crime as good as a human can. If I hit someone with my fists, after he stole my whole equipment, I would be flagged as a criminal. He calls the guards, I get imprisoned. - Ok, lets add code to detect if he stole before *adds a lot of code*. Now another player comes and starts insulting the highpriest. The highpriest casts a spell at the person and... is imprisoned. - Ok, lets add insulting code... Now the highpriest orders his servants to grab the insulting persons. - Oh, the servants haven't been insulted, so they get.... guess what?... imprisoned...

All these cases would be no problem for a GM. Anyway the real problems are created by players that commit multiple killing or something like that. I don't think that kind of behavior has to be dealt with in game (like prison), but rather out of game (skill decrease up to deletion)


@Taun: How about some suggestions for rules or RPG guide? Or contributing some stories/race descriptions (ask Nanuk for that (Menu->Background story))?
btw: some of your graphics will be in the next version.

[Dax]

Greetings Gentleman,

Just to respond my thoughts on the previous posts and then I will ramble more *g*

Ok about the account and email.
How about a comprimise between the two ideas.
Someone must email a GM for an account with the above listed information.
Once an account is established they log in with username and there it will list the current characters they have. I think the account should have a value so multiple characters are not allowed. If value is 32 and another account signs on with value of 32 they second will be rejected.

On the guard subject.
Maybe a Karma point system would be good here.
If you kill a player you get 2 karma points. Karma points can disappear with time.. 1 point a week, or a quest of some type "redemption" can be roleplayer for the gods to forgive his actions.
With this.. at a certain point you can enable the town guards to attack on sight. at 4 points guards will search for you and 6 and over "you could create a sherrif for now until PC takes over"  but the sheriff will hunt you and he should be damn strong.

That may help deter people, but many will enjoy the challenge so either make the NPC's effective.

Imagine a well trained Archer firing at you while sheriff advances and guards block the exit.. now what? hehe

And though Illarion is nice open, I think as any town grows, crime increases. precautions must be taken to control this and in some cases a moat, walls or whatnot must be created. Maybe a thick forrest has grown up around illarion creating only a few places to exit.

As far as rules go..

1) Stay in character whisper if talking out of character
"In character means you act and think like your character, not using information your character wouldn't know or hasn't done."
"Out of character refers to you the ugly person sitting at the keyboard and anything else not refering to your character or gameplay"

2) Do not kill others, it is frowned upon.

3) It is ok to help newbies and give them information on how to play, but to give newbies all great equipment takes away alot of the game "not to mention thier learning."  (bror not sure how to word this as rule)

4) no use of any proggies, scroll or other programs along with illarion to enhance gameplay.

"I will think of more eventually"

[Bror]

Computer guards are hard to program. Every animal has more so called "intelligence" than a computer. The only "intelligence" that is in the game right now is: try EVERY possible path between monster and player, and select the shortest. Its nothing more than a try and error, but very fast. So Things like guards finding and imprisoning players, not to mention coordinating different police forces in one action, is very hard to program.
An easy solution would be a simple message "You are caught by the guards" + teleportation to a prison.


I would like to enlarge the 1. rule: whisper or talk, where no one else (not incvolved) hears it. Go into a forest to talk ooc.

2. If we completly ban killing, there would be no need for a rule - we could take the option out of the server. But usualy, if you can't get killed, you behave like a child. Imagine a lot of players running around, stealing, insulting people... And you can't do anything to stop them (except wait for a GM).

[Taun Kahartuum]

I guess, its no problem in beeing killed for a good reason. There must be the opportunity to die, because otherwise it would take some of the suspense out of the game...

[Sskakzk'krr]

I always liked the eye for a eye rule. But that bout all I follow rping.

MD

[Jeanderaux]

How about giving certain people in the game the title of Judge.  Allow these players the ability to punish based on a trial.  This way the accused has a chance to tell their side of the story.  There might be a reason why someone just killed 6 players in the town square.

Give the Judges the power to assign sentence based on the crime.

Thanks for Reading this

[Paxor]

I would like to see a reputation system in place. I think this would be easier to implement than other solutions and can be extended and refined in consistent ways.

For example, make it so if a user is killed inside or near the town the killer would have its reputation drastically reduced. If you want to wander to the far lands, you also know that you risk being attacked by rougue players, who also know that they can do this without damaging too much their reputation. Think of it as an automated comunitty watch, without the need of other players to withness the crime.

Players with high reputation should expect better deals in stores, lower charges for services etc, while "bad" characters will be marginalized. A honest tailor or baker can live a decent life without the need to leave the town, and a more adventurous knight will explore the lands for fame and fortune with the assumed risk of being a target for both monsters and rouge players.

Also, it would be nice if a player could directly influence other player's reputation, but this is already a refinement. The insulted high priest can use his high reputation points to decrease the reputation of the offender without the need to go ballistic, and so on.

This also opens other interesting posibilities, like the oulaws being able to setup their own communities (rogue camps).

I feel that roleplaying doesn't mean all of us need to tell nice fantasy stories to each others, but rather each player to play a role as credible as possible, given the economic and social mechanisms set by the game rules.

[Sir Draken]

One new rule that there could be is no healing the enemy, just to kill them again, and no killing over and over at the cross. You should also not be able to kill a certain number of people in a certain amount of time, like, if you go on mass pking, you will be banned.

[Alexander]

temporarily unable to take damage after brought back to life, but only like a second so no one can take advantage of it.

[Bror]

I guess this thread will come to no result, like the last to this topic...

The rules, that were proposed so far (plus additions):

- no use of any proggies, scroll or other programs along with illarion to enhance gameplay.
- no healing the enemy, just to kill them again, and no killing over and over at the cross.
- do not kill one person over and over, unless you are provoced again and again
- log in with multiple clients at the same time (not possible on one computer in the next version)


Some behaviors that are not welcome and could be punnished, if they occur massive:
- logging of, when facing danger
- it is ok to help newbies and give them information on how to play, but to give newbies all great equipment takes away alot of the game "not to mention thier learning."
- killing characters, that are clearly newbies (i.e. their player doesn't know the game - does not count for a new character of an old player), without beeing provoced
- powergaming, i.e. doing things, your character wouldn't normaly do, just to increase your skill (e.g. casting offensive spells on yourself! (or let them be cast by others))
- Stay in character. Whisper if talking out of character, or go to an empty place on the map.
"In character means you act and think like your character, not using information your character wouldn't know or hasn't done."
"Out of character refers to you the ugly person sitting at the keyboard and anything else not refering to your character or gameplay"
- no killing without a reason
- no cussing at other players, only characters. This means, you should use proper words, that fit into a medival fantasy world, no modern language. The insult must be directed to the character, not the player that uses the character
- no item or information trading between characters. I.e. don't give money or anything from one of your characters to another - they don't know each other, so they don't give presents
- don't use bugs or "holes" in the game system, that you know of. One example: A real knight knows that he could die on the battlefield. This death would be a definite end to his life. So he acts in a way to avoid this death. You know, your character will come to life, after he dies, so you could take high risks instead of avoiding unstopable danger. Your character itself doesn't know, so he will act like the knight.


Is there anything missing, anything to much?

[Damien]

Cast spells on self : perhaps it can be made impossible for agressive spells ? (not the healing ones ) With a character comment like : "AAAH ! I'm not that stupid. It could hurt" or something likewise =)
Change the Water spell to a "washing" spell, with no damage. So to make it non-agressive (and non-resistance-rising). Could be used for extinguishing fires (or/and fire fields ?) or washing other characters or oneself( "You feel clean now - but wet" hehehe... )
Fireballs could "extinguish" ice fields too.

A criminal system could stop people from attacking or casting agressive spells at each other. Attackers get a "attacker" flag when they attack a person who has no "attacker-flag". An attacker-flag can be reset after about ten minutes. If an attacker kills a non-attacker person, he gets set a criminal flag. This stays some long time - perhaps until he's dead.
Stupid, provoking persons who use some words like "m***f***" or such stuff may get the criminal flag for free hehehe... or the attacker flag.
people who have attacker or criminal status should know this, and others should perhaps have an opportunity to see this info when clicking them.

(Edited by Damien at 11:54 am on May 15, 2001)


(Edited by Damien at 11:57 am on May 15, 2001)

[Bror]

We are talking about rules how to behave, not expansions of the server/client code. Please keep this thread on topic

[Paxor]

Hmm, rules? Like "be nice, don't be bad or else"? Or else, what? Your account will be deleted?

This is a wrong approach at the problem. Sure, there should be rules, but mostly for abusing the out-of-game systems for gaining advantages in game and for the usage of improper language (swearing, etc).

All other problems you mentioned are BUGS and BAD GAME DESIGN! You should focus on fixing them first, before implementing/enhancing other parts (graphics, sound, combat system).

You can also delegate several GMs to apply these rules in game. Give them access to game logs to verify complaints from the "citizens" and allow them to delete the accounts of those who break them badly.

The blueprints of the game look wonderful and reading about in game economics, wealth and luxury systems, social rankings mad me think it is worth trying. The game has a lot of potential, but if you don't implement them and don't stop pointless PKing, it will become just another Quake-like online game with poor graphics.

You want to force in-character behavior. Don't do this. If you code a nice game engine the true role-players will have a reason to stay and the others will follow.

The main thing you should keep in mind is the business perspective. Players will give you their most precious asset: their time. Don't waste it. Make the game a progressive and fun experience and allow the players to participate in building its social fabric, story and economy.

[Captain Kirk]

Hallo

dont cast in the town but a few mes pen to heal one r ok
and dont fight in town (specialy shop, lib and the house west from the lib)
each char should have a few manners or ??

maybe we get a special place for duels near the town ??

btw u can only say yes or no at the new poll :-( pls change it

Bye
Read ya
MfG

Capt. Kirk

[Antarion]

The rules are ok, but what about executing them? At the moment, they are nothing more than words. Without the meanings to carry them through, they´re meaningless!
I think one solution would be a small arena, where players can duel, or just train. In that spot all limitations would fall off, and it would be easier to follow the rules.

[Nanuk]

I agree with Antarion. Rules without enforcement have no value. In addition I think we should skip all the “rules” telling the players what should be a preferred way of playing. Just a small number of players will ever look at them. What we need are definitions of things which are forbidden and a way to enforce them. And this enforcement part is the only reason why there should be rules, as if there is something like banning a player, you have to have rules to point to.

As for the punishment: first time 24h banishment, second time up to two weeks banishment (considering the seriousness of the offence), third time up to four weeks banishment (s.o.), fourth time deletion of the character is possible or another banning (minimum three GMs should vote for the deletion, Bror has to approve). Some offences can lead to immediate deletion.

Here are some amendments to some of the rules and some additions:

1. This is strictly a Role Playing (RP) Game. Therefore follow the rules (which are written down here somewhere *g*), try to be fair and keep to your role. So called ooc-talk (words that do not fit into a medieval environment and real life topics) should be kept to an absolutely minimum, if at all. If you have to talk ooc, stay away from the crowd, so not to disturb other players. Using the boards or another chat program would be even better.

2. Power Gaming is forbidden. With Power Gaming mindless training of one skill is meant. This does not include e.g. a smith producing weapons for ca. one hour (RL). Exceeding this amount of time will not be tolerated. Also e.g. mining and fighting against monsters at the same time will be considered as power gaming. The same goes for macro using.

3. Senseless player killing is forbidden. This does include killings because of far-fetched reasons like "Give me your shield or die!". RP killings are definitely allowed. Repeated killing of the same character is not allowed! If you have problems with an annoying player, report this to a GM.

4. Character names have to fit into the medieval fantasy background of the game and should be "real" names! So do not use names like Superhero, Dragonfighter or Carpenter. Characters with sexist, racist or vulgar names or senseless formattings (e.g. HarHanO) will be deleted on spot. Do not use well known character names from novels or movies like Gandalf or Rambo.

5. Racist or discriminating expressions in game or on the boards are forbidden. RP cussing is allowed as long as is does not violate the above sentence and is not directed to the player behind the character.

6. This game is still in development. If you encounter bugs, report them immediately. Bug abuse or exploiting game weaknesses in any way is forbidden.

*damn this took me nearly 1 hours to write. OK, I think you get the point. Maybe it would be better to ask a lawyer to formulate these rules . Übrigens Bror, bist Du heute mit dem falschen Bein aufgestanden?

There should also be a rule about GM actions, what they can do and what they are not allowed to do.

Nanuk

[Farlorn]

one question to the term "powergaming":
when I fight a hard enemy I can wear two shields and win. That is probably what the "knight" would choose. But this way my parry won't rise, so I will take of one or (depends on the enemy) both shields to be hit. I sometimes have a bad feeling about it because it sounds like powergaming in my ears, but I can see no other way to manage this problem with this system we have...

Farlorn, who tries not to powergame

[Bror]

I would concider this powergaming, since you willingly damage your character (by accepting the damage), to increase your skill.

[Sir Draken]

My name in illarion is Minsc which is well known by baldurs gate players. Would i be deleted? I dont think that would be fair cuz there was no previous rule.

[Bror]

I haven't said anything about deleting characters for past actions (at least I can't remember)

[Captain Kirk]

Hallo

bror can u make a map with the town borders and post the map here in the board ?? so we can say im still in town or not

Bye
Read ya
MfG

Capt. Kirk

[Bror]

yes I can, but I can do it as good as anyone (and won't do it)

[Gilean]

Hello, on the subject of mindless training for hours.  So what!  In the all of the fantasy stories I have read your life is a continual training session and that goes double for mages.  A mage would spend days and hours in his home or out and about to perfect or invent new spells and old ones.  I spend much time checking all old spells and try new combinations every time I log on to see if any has been added (much to my continual disappointment).  With the current system power gaming was a way of life back then.  Training sessions were a natural part of life back then.  If you were a black smith it was not unusual or unheard of to spend an entire day forging this and that limited only to their patience and desire.  A good rule is not to kill without reason but even this is shady because I am sure that there was psychopaths back then also.  But I am certain that there was not as many as we have in the world of Illarion today.  I do agree with some of the other rules Nanuk purposed.  You should not use current day slang and cuss words that we use today.  This should be taken as if it were the Middle Ages and as such language should be kept in the proper context.  Racist and discriminating comments should be allowed only if it is use as an in game way.  (I.E. the accursed lizard population are nothing but slimy yellowed bellied cutpurse scallywags.  This is an example and is not the way I actually feel toward the nice lizards of the world Illarion.)  Racist and discriminating remarks should not however include any of current world situations or language.  (I.E. All German/American/Other people suck ass/are fuckers.)  This should not be tolerated.  Bugs found in the game should not be exploited but I do not believe that there are any beneficial bugs in the system except the way it is set up.

[Bror]

"Training sessions ..... limited only to their patience and desire"
Thats true, but you don't need much patience to log into Illarion, start a fight with a weak foe, go to work and enjoy the effects after 8 hours.
Same goes for having a pleasant little chat while fighting - I don't think you will have the breath to chat a little, while fighting the daemon.

There may be psychopaths in Illarion, and this itself may be the reason for the killing. But it would be possible to add more RPG elements in playing a psycho - he may have more habbits than just jumping to everyone, killing it. And even a psychopath can't kill one person 10 times after another.

[Gilean]

Once again Bror your logic is unfailing and you bring up some extremely valid points.

[Damien]

Training fights could be put away with a modification of the learning system:
- you only learn from monsters when fighting them by yourself ( not standing and being hit )
- you don't learn in the fight itself, but only an amount when the monster you actually fight dies. Each monster can train your skills to a maximum value.
The better the monster compared to your skills, the better the mainly used skills could eventually rise. There should be a maximum skill rise for each monster too, to prevent skill boosts when shooting a dying demon as new bow user.
One has to make damage to rise the attack skill.

Necessary for that : The only-learn-when-being-hit - thing should be deactivated or replaced.

By perhaps using special training weapons, one could compare one's skills to each other without the risk of a kill. That way, only the first bit of the skills could be learned.
That would mean, one had to gain one's experiences in battle with creatures. This would deal with the pk-supertrain-thing too.

(Edited by Damien at 8:48 pm on May 23, 2001)