Technical Restrictions vs. IC Reality

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:55 am

Since the other topic is already getting off track, I'll continue here with what I think the real "issue" is. And that is: Technical Restrictions vs. IC Reality, or for those who like visuals:

Fooser went to the Northwest part of the island, and the guards opposed this severely. But he was outside of town? So then Fooser tried to figure out why, and there was no real answer. It was "south or east gate, not the north", and still no reason. Then later there was a partial answer, John said the North gate wasn't good because:
Someone (30589): Because they will pass trough town again

At first this seems reasonable right? But in truth, it isnt, because he is making the assumption that the gate above is the only way to get to the northwest part of the island. From an OOC/Technical view, he is right, the only way to get there directly is through town. But in IC Reality, there are many ways to get to the northwest part of town. Some examples:
-Swimming there(Fooser is a lizard, right?)
-Boat(It's an island, there are many boats around)
-Maybe the river gets shallow at one spot, and you can walk or jump
-Maybe there is a tunnel/abandoned mine/cave that could lead there
-And the bridge near the zombies, of course

Once Fooser presented the idea that he swam there, they refused to believe it, and said our presence there was against the law. Why? Because of an OOC restriction of transportation. IC though- They could have gotten there in many ways, and the guards problem about them being in the northwest area of the island is an OOC argument, and their argument has no foundation.

Illarion is a Roleplaying game, and I would imagine players would use imagination, creativity, and such, but it's discouraging that we are still STUCK with this:

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:08 am

yea, and especially when they dont see you pass through town

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:39 am

These are the little stupid rp things that make me not want to play anymore. I mean...when people turn hostile towards you because you give them a name and refuse to #introduce to them, that is just crap. Same with them not wanting you up noth....I mean, you are a lizard...you can swim anywhere. sheesh.

Hagen von Rabenfeld · Post by **Hagen von Rabenfeld** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:11 pm

#me runs away from the guards.
#me disapears

(not fiction, reality. Such things happen.)

Percival · Post by **Percival** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:10 pm

Arkadia Misella wrote:I mean...when people turn hostile towards you because you give them a name and refuse to #introduce to them, that is just crap.

I think #introduce command should be deleted /!name is enough, i mean playing a thief and intorducing yourself with own name is rather... stupid?:)

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:54 pm

Hagen von Rabenfeld wrote:#me runs away from the guards.
#me disapears

(not fiction, reality. Such things happen.)

that would be bad roleplay have your character swim a couple dozen yards isnt =P

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:13 pm

I see someone actually made an argument against the transportation idea, so I'll respond here:

Moathia wrote: Ok show me a boat then,

Ill show you a boat when you show me the invisible guards.(funny how that works, isn't it?) Because you cant see it IG means it dosen't exsist? wow...

Moathia wrote: two, those rivers would be too small for a boat

Who said anything about rivers? And if they are indeed too small, then where is your argument against swimming across?

Moathia wrote: where would they get the boats from did they make them? Buy them?

What's wrong with constructing one? It isn't like there isn't any wood around or anything. We aren't talking about Galleons here, just a small 1-2-3 person boat...

Moathia wrote: even if those factors had been over come there is a case of the two bridges in the way, how could they get past the bridge to the Gray Rose castle? Oh they couldn't. They would get stuck.

Fear not, I brought visuals again:

Everyone keeps saying this is an IG problem, again they are partially right, but not in full truth. The guards entire problem with outlaws being in the Northwest section of town is OOC, there is no way me or anyone else can respond to that properly through our chars, technically I should ignore them, but I'm sure that would cause problems.

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:30 pm

and they wouldnt even have to swim all the way around, they can swim a bit west past town then walk to the other side of the land, then the northern land is just a stones through from where you are, now much swimming involved

and we live on an small island how can someone not know hwo to swim

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:13 pm

Why should you b able to roleplay swimming when you can't do it in game, if someone who wants to play a Drow can't do it because it's not ingame, if it's not technically possible don't do it, it's as simple as that.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:18 pm

WEll you can't ACTUALLY DO IT INGAME. But this is what he means. Let say we sneak throught town....and they find us in the north and say "HEY YOU WENT THROUGH TOWN!" Techinically yes we had to go through, but IG if we said no we swam or so on...they couldn't debunk that because it is possible...but not technically possible.

Sam · Post by **Sam** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:22 pm

I wonder why the island was cut into three so that you have to go through town to get from one bit to another. The only reason seems to be so that the guard can chase down, and perhaps kill, undesirable people who are forced to go through town to get to another bit of the island. A possible charge of forced RP?
Not all resources can be found in each "third". I now see the skulls appear to have annexed a valuable resource for themselves. Wander into their territory and it's pay or die. Another good RP reason to kill someone.

The player of Sam.
(Sam does not share or support any of my points of view expressed here. )

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:31 pm

Moathia wrote:Why should you b able to roleplay swimming when you can't do it in game, if someone who wants to play a Drow can't do it because it's not ingame, if it's not technically possible don't do it, it's as simple as that.

We can't actually sit in a chair either... our models more than just stand on the chair while the chair is either behind our models or stupidily in front of the models. Does that make sense? No, technically, you can't sit in a chair or sit on the ground either...

Or saying, you can throw things across the screen and smack someone on the head TECHNICALLY, but in reality, you couldn't...

Nandus · Post by **Nandus** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:32 pm

Val De Gausse wrote:WEll you can't ACTUALLY DO IT INGAME. But this is what he means. Let say we sneak throught town....and they find us in the north and say "HEY YOU WENT THROUGH TOWN!" Techinically yes we had to go through, but IG if we said no we swam or so on...they couldn't debunk that because it is possible...but not technically possible.

That sounds right. Think of the exampel in the manual:
When 5 people catch you and rope you then stay, even when it's technical not possible to rope someone.

Illarion isn't perfect, but we all have a brain and phantasy so everything ist possible, when you could imagine it.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:33 pm

This whole problem is between the Outcasts and the Guards. The Guards say they have these 'invisible' Guards which the Outcasts have to obide by because its roleplay. If the Outcasts say they want to roleplay swimming round then they can't because it's technically flawed (as are 'invisible' guards) or the Guards refuse to allow this roleplay because someone else who is an Outcast once showed poor roleplay, it's still not a reason to deny the good roleplayers the chance to do what they want.

So if the Guards won't let the Outcasts use reasonable roleplay, then if I were an Outcast I would refuse to acknowledge the 'invisiable' Guards. The two can only get along if they compromise fairly, if that doesn't happen then the whole thing just makes more problems and so on.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:35 pm

t's still not a reason to deny the good roleplayers the chance to do what they want

Thank you Hermie...This about sums up why I don't like the game too much anymore. WEll I do, except for this.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:38 pm

then if I were an Outcast I would refuse to acknowledge the 'invisiable' Guards

They already do that sort of...

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:40 pm

Well iof you can't live with the concequences, to do the crime, if you felt that it was so unjust that you started a war against the town, and got banned, and now it's either go to jail for a few hours or live as an outlaw, to be hunted, if you can't handle that, you should never have starte this fight in the first place, why should the guars care if you swam or not, they can still say you wenty through town, how are you going to disprove them?

If you go against the ones in power and loose be prepare for the concequences of those action, if not don't bother, you all knew the risks invloved, and what would happen when you lost, yhou did it anyway, so live with it.

Fooser; 1, I have never supported the invisible guards claim.
2, I have never actually seen thse invisible guards do anything, I've always seen Hagen grab someone.

My argument against swimming across, read my last post.

Ok Fooser, how many carepenters are there in this group that woul be able to make a boat, I'm talking about the ons who are not allowed to go into town before this started. Not people like Athian.

No the guards problem with you being Northwest is not ooc, your just not able to see it from thier perspective, so you assume it is ooc, how would you feel if a gang of outlaws decied to live just up the road from your house? Out laws who had broken the law, some never got arsste and those who did broke the law again, would you call the police? Yes, and they would come and get them out, this is what the guards are doing, they don't want criminals living on their doorstep.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:43 pm

they don't want criminals living on their doorstep.

Lyrenzia has one big ass door step then...

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:43 pm

Fooser; 1, I have never supported the invisible guards claim.
2, I have never actually seen thse invisible guards do anything, I've always seen Hagen grab someone.

The invisible guards were implemented as a fail-safe so that even if guards weren't areound people would be considered bad RP to sneak in..

Also you have to understand Val doesn't want to live in Trollsbane...so why would he want to spend days in jail so he can do something he doesn't want too...

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:47 pm

Since swimming is technically impossible, only use "swimming" when walking along the edge of water.

Consider the way around town as too dangerous to swim (reefs, water turbulences, too long distances) as long as swimming is not implemented yet.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:50 pm

They basically control the whole island Kasume, so yeah, and before you go whining that Lyernzia has no power out of town, well guess again, Lyrenzia can do what ever they want? What are your chars gonna do, nothing becaus they would get killed by the guars, so you start whining ooc about excelent role play because it discriminates agaist you.

Yeah, because you couldn't just rp killing those guards quietly, I know one person who did that during the ban, he got trappe in town after one of Grants plan went wrong, waitied untill Hagen was back online, Hagen was in the tavern and he was trying to leave by the south gate, so he #me'ed killing the invisible guards by throwing aggers into their backs and bolting, right under Hagen's nose.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:54 pm

~Aronthus
~Cedric Kilmar
~Guillermo Ballesta
~Gwynnether von Glanwen
~John Irenicus
~Nedor von Largon
~Shukk

I am sure the invisible guards who get no say, and don't even get recognized love to be in their job...

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:02 pm

Consider the way around town as too dangerous to swim (reefs, water turbulences, too long distances) as long as swimming is not implemented yet.

Looking at your website, Lizards build CITIES under water... I think reefs and such would be a disgrace to a lizard to not be able to swim over... of course.. it is Fooser...

They basically control the whole island Kasume, so yeah, and before you go whining that Lyernzia has no power out of town, well guess again, Lyrenzia can do what ever they want? What are your chars gonna do, nothing becaus they would get killed by the guars, so you start whining ooc about excelent role play because it discriminates agaist you.

Never have I whined about them controlling the island. Your problem Moathia, you are judging me a little too quickly because of my miss understanding with the gaurds and the recent events.

Although, Lyrenzia does not technically control the entire island, it is not against the laws of Lyrenzia to attack someone. As the gaurds did outside of town. So I really wasn't complaining, it was like me going out to hunt someone. A gaurd is like any other person, just has a duty to protect the town. So, I really could care a rats ass about where they "enforce" their laws...

If Lyrenzia does not protect from murderers outside of town, why should they be able to come outside of Trollsbane and put people under arrest. Although, that's an IC matter which should not be brought here.

Another thing Moathia, you're mixing the OOC factors with IC factors.

EDIT :
Your doorstep analogy was horrible...

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:11 pm

Consider the way around town as too dangerous to swim (reefs, water turbulences, too long distances) as long as swimming is not implemented yet.

What about a boat...

Once again Grey Rose Castle, taking up space (just a little comic relief)

*EDIT: Img host sized it...says "Val De Gausse cries"

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:16 pm

LOL, but if you had your swimming, they'd have their guards ... and you're walking right through their castle? It's alright for Lizardmen 'cause they could prbably hold their breath underwater for much longer than a Human could. I don't really know about Lizardmen because I haven't played one therefore havent researched into them much.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:16 pm

Simply consider the reefs to rip apart the boats *g*

As it seems, you should somehow work out a deal with the town guard.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:16 pm

Holy jeez... that wall is as big as a pig! And you can't jump over it?

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:16 pm

Even though I am very judgemental that comment wasn't just to you, though your right I could have worded it better, so I am sorry for that, and please show me where I'm mixing ooc factors with IG factors, I fear what may be making sence to me may not to others, so please point out any inconsistancies between ooc and ic with my arguments so I can better explain them.

Also my analergy was fine, the whole island is Lyernzia's welcome mat, you live on the islan you have to deal with them, though perhaps yhou would have prefered back garden, espite the fact they mean exactly the same thing, and your getting picky.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:17 pm

Heh....well I wish I could.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:18 pm

I do not think the guards like making deals. They always turn them down except for the "terms of capituation" which was a little rediculous ooc wise.