quest,weapon and interfacing for them.

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 4:47 pm

Ok, I am tired of not being able to do martial arts propoerly, punching is useless against a heavly armed opponent, but there is a way to over come it
1) add a new martial artist skill, with these sub skills,
Punching
Kicking
Throwing weapons
Concussion Fist weapons**
Concussion feet wepons**
note: items with (**) will need the graphic proposed later in post.

2) make a quest to be able to use the skill listed above, heres a quick idea.
Add a sub division to spider cave, put exactly 5 beholders near the entrance, and 7red skellies near the end of room. at the end of room, put in the following

3) new graphics, for 1 and 2.
foot concussion: steel toed boots
fist concussion: Iron knuckles
throwing: Knives (or to save time, throwing stars)
head: samarais' helmet ( increases parry two letters, and adds to armour)
head: head band ( increases all spells, or potions one-three letters)

if you want, I will do the above completely, with transparent Background.

4) interfacing

punching and kicking need not interfacing.

this is proposed plan

(must have naked,or foot-fist concussion armed, does not work with weapons)

a)Ctrl-left click holding P: punch

b)Ctrl-left click holding K: kick

c)Ctrl-left click holding Q : charge spirit for 5seconds, increases defense and armour.

d)Ctrl-left click holding A : charge spirit for 3seconds increases attack power.

A and B must be done one tile away from target. C and D can be done anywhere, but weres off after same amount (charge for 5secs, wares off in 5secs)

hope you at least consider this maybe on the (during summer list)

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 9:04 pm

before having so many subskills in martial arts, we should have more (?) figthingskills , polearms, axes, maces & clubs .... i think..

Emhyr van Emreis · Post by **Emhyr van Emreis** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 10:12 pm

Well, I dunno... I mean, of course we should have a martial arts skill... but, oh, be realistic. I mean, imagine really attacking a heavily armed knight with some iron knuckles. I doubt he'd notice it at all... anyway, once he notices it, you wouldn't be able to notice anything anymore

No, honestly. I think martial arts should rather not be able to kill anything, just for unarmed fights as sporting events, and knocking out instead of killing. (Please except lizardmen from this statement. I don't know much about them, but as for what I've read about them, after you've been slapped on the cheek by one of them you can just as well spend the rest of the day looking for it on the ground)

And as for the helmet that increases your parry and the charging of spirits... well, it sound a lot like one of these japanese slash'n'hack games in beta I've been playing for free some time ago... kinda like diablo. Dunno, maybe I'm just biased, but I don't know in how far this would actually fit into Illarion.

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 10:39 pm

actually, many people did attack heavily armoured knights during the middle ages with thier bare hands, many did not have the iron knuckles. I made this propesel WITH the interfacing, because if you study the interfacing, it will be tough to master it, martial is not a sword skill, it take determination and mind over matter to master is, now try to Ctrl-left click Q on your screen, notice the diffeculty? which means, martial arts becomes a less known form, as many powergamers will not attempt it
I would like to add, that if properly trained to the fullest with iron knucles ( should take 16hrs and 45 mins) A man can deliver the force of a sword blow to the head, if timing and speed as will as placement are exact and can induce this many times before a sword can even hit the opponent.

Emhyr van Emreis · Post by **Emhyr van Emreis** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 10:54 pm

Well, I'm not really sure yet... I tries the ctrl-left click-q thingie... maybe I've got another keyboard, or maybe I'm a mutant with tentacle fingers, but I fin'd it's hardly harder than the ctrl-left click to attack normally... And still I don't see you killing somebody with a helment with iron knuckles.
As far as I know, the only popular way for non-knights to kill knights would be to get them to fall down (the techniques were ingenious... e.g. two people would hold a long stick into the way of a gallopping knight and the stick would throw him to the ground, just like a too low tunnel entrance would, used alot against european knights in the crusades afaik), and them to hit them with war hammers repeatedly so that they would not be able to move anymore due to deformation of their armor... often they'd not eaven care to kill them just let them lie around and starve/bleed to death, as actually killing somebody in a full knight's armor without the help of a thin blade to stick through some opening was quite a tiresome procedure. Swords used to do more concussion damage than slashing damage to knights in those times.
Anyway, I seem to have gotten carried off a bit... Well, just to get to the point: I don't think you can kill a knight with iron knuckles, I'm not eaven sure you can noticably deform his armor. And the other ideas... as I already said, I don't know inhowfar this fits here. This spirit charging... do care to explain. I do not see in the least how this fits into the Illarion system. It sounds more like from a final-fantasy like game, and this is something totally different. It's nice too if you like it, but... well, I like sugar, and I like a good steak. But don't try to get me to eat my steak with sugar, just because both taste good!

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 11:55 pm

Lasukie, this isn't some olden days japanese game, where people meditate for hours to raise thier Ki, and then deal a killing blow to a knight. No, just the opposite, I think we have Wizards, which of course weren't in those books, which could kill a little guy in a robe when he even lifts his foot. I mean, think about it. Heres a Knight, Badmosche for instance, and you come up, dressed in a white robe with a bandana on your head, and fly out of nowhere and try to kick him. Well, not only will your foot hurt, but probably get cut up pretty bad.
I don't exactly get what you are trying to do, as I should ask about expanding on sickles, of all things, to make them deadly killing weapons. The game is fine without bald monks flying off roofs attacking poor peasants by kicking them to death.
In summary, I don't like the idea since the culture of Samurais is japanese and this is definately not japanese. These are elves, dwarves, orcs... don't see any reason why they would use iron knuckles. That, and wearing some bandana to increase our mixing skills. It just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 12:25 am

ARE you asking me to get some material evidence? I will write down the names of about 20history books and 50 midievil fantasy books, that completly makes you look like an..... well you know. you make people angry....power hungry mongrel.

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 3:12 am

umm Erdrick look at my name, its japenese, I can introduce you to some japenese people to. I don't think it is particaly nice of you to bash others cultures "becuase you dont like it" if you hadent noticed illarion is a diversity of cultures of players around the world, whether it be finnish or french german or english american or native aboriginal pakistany or jamaican. just becuase you do not like a culture does not mean and idea should be ignored. oh,yes, if you want me to kill you in one hit before you can move a real sword, I would kindly demonstrate >:) and there are japenese books that describe elfs erdrick. In fact a major topic in animes nowadays I belive is elven types. oh, and if you want to talk about sikle fighting? why not go to EYGYPT where BEFORE the middle ages, the SIKLE SWORD and SIKLE were two of the most dealiest weapons. In fact I have two iron sikles right here, I can demonstrate that to.
so why not get your priorities straight. stop being a typical pig headed nationalist and think about the diversity of the middle ages and fantasy.

(Edited by Lasukie at 3:13 am on April 3, 2002)

Emhyr van Emreis · Post by **Emhyr van Emreis** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 6:54 am

Oh, go ahead, Lasukie. Mail me the name of a serious historical book that mentions killing heavily armoured knights with iron knuckles. My mail is falka777@gmx.de
Don't just post it on the boards, I won't be reading them the next days.
And no need to get insulting. I didn't do so in my whole post, and so it strongly lowers the credibility of your own post.

And, by the way, nobody is discriminating the eastern culture here. It's just that, as I already said, eaven if you like two things very much, it doesn't always make sense to try and put them together, as they just don't fit together. Just as I said in my previous post, I like sugar, I like a good steak, but a steak with sugar... *ark*. Ad here Illarion's worls is the steak and your proposal is the sugar. It's not bad on itself, but it just doesn't work well with the world of Illarion.

(Edited by Emhyr van Emreis at 6:12 am on April 3, 2002)

martin · Post by **martin** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 9:02 am

this is not an action game.
your ideas might be great -- for mortal combat or something. illarion tries to be a fantasy-roleplayinggame.
"fantasy" refers usually to a world with dwarfs, orcs etc.
"roleplaying" means that you play a role and that this game is *not* an ego-shooter or something. (or a game like diablo)

therefore your suggestions will probably not be built in.

martin

Zorain · Post by **Zorain** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 10:54 am

there is dwarfs in reality

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 2:33 pm

ok, fine. I will just start discriminating americans with there FOOTBALL games and PORK RINDS while they ducrmininate everyone from japenese to blacks while bush sits back choking on pretzels and bombing the hell outa afhghanistan, ok now canada. we are sooo important that a TRIP to africa is mor eimportant then seeing the queen mothers funeral in the land of our BIGGEST ally, shall I continue?

you want book names, fine in about 3hrs, afte rI go to the library I will post them for you, but you may be warned, they used bare hands not iron knuckles.

not to mention these other games who put in iron knuckles and japenese culture:
Ledgend of mir
Russia online
El Kardian

Peggy Komoshio · Post by **Peggy Komoshio** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 3:46 pm

well, technically, if you really want to do it "properly"; you'll have to include jumping also. not just the "jump" we use to get from places to places, but a real jump where you can jump up and kind of soar like what Neo did in the end of "The Matrix". Um... ok, maybe not that much, but you know what I mean... And alot of other cool stuff such as special cult moves where some little crew can study special moves to be used (Like the ones mentioned in Chinese fantasy stories such as "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragons"

) It'd be great fun to do that I'd say

Stefanf · Post by **Stefanf** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 4:38 pm

Uh, Lasukie, I've been beta-testing El Kardian for a while, and it certainly doesn't have any Japanese cultural influences. It's just another fantasy orc-slashing game.

As for the culture discrimination, nobody ever said he didn't like Japanese culture. All Erdrick said was that Illarion isn't a game based on Japanese culture and he didn't like the martial arts because of that.
I don't see why you start discriminating the US and Canada (which doesn't make sense anyway) because of that.

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 10:22 pm

the entire backround story is based on north korean literature, more then half of the weapons would not exist without eastern or japenese qualities and beliefs, frankly if you cannot support it, dont write it. El Kardian is based in days of olde medievil fanatasy in krean and eurasia, I asked about this in an email to there "gods"

jumping would be helpfull, but I can kill a fully amoured knight wearing plate with ONE well placed kick to the chest and two chops to the head and neck.

oh and martin, you make me sick. Mortal Combat is an american based movie/video game series that is as japenese as uncle sam, same with stven seagel and all the other "action" heroes.

other games that are not online:
FF mystic quest (snes)
FF4 (snes)
Legend of dragoon (psx)

I own all three, and martial arts plays a large role in each one, all of them are based medievil and fantasy realm.

and my words in my previous post may be harsh, but I can say both bad and good things about almost everycountry on this entire planet.

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 12:18 am

FF Mystic Quest is for 3 year olds who can't understand how to buy weapons.
I see no ninja stuff, except for the Snake man (Tristan?) who throws darts.
And no need to insult everyone, you are not a samurai.
And show me a man who kills a well-armored knight with one good kick and a few well placed chops. Only crazy manga series like 'DragonBall Z' does that.

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 1:29 am

Listen erdrick I am a black belt and I am 6ft high! you wanna come to my trailer anyday wearing armour an I'll drop you flat!

Shi Long · Post by **Shi Long** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 9:14 am

hmmm, i am very interested in martial arts too. But this proposal is to much complicated... If i could, i would play a fighting monk in this game (like the chinese shaolin monks centuries ago...). At the moment this isn't possible, because the present figting system wouln't support this. I mean that there isn't any possibility to configure your char in a way that he can't get hit so easy (they where very fast and agile) and there are no warstaffs or any other weapons that would fit...
Btw: I think a heavy amored knight could never hit a well trained "monk", because he is to slow(or the monk is sleeping...

) and in my opinion an Ninja or a "monk" would have more chances to kill a knight, as the other way round, but that will never be found out i think...
I agree to Erdrick, what Lasukie writes here doesn't all really fit to illarion, but there are some proposals to think about...

@Lasuki: what your skills are and your abilities in real life, has nothing to do with Illarion, sorry but that is a fact...

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 9:53 am

Although a knight would have a hard time hitting a well trained agile monk, the monk still wouldn't be able to punch through the thick heavy armour worn in medieval Europe, so I think the battle would drag on forever if it was a simple head to head combat. Since I don't recall any history books where a European Knight fought a Chinese Monk I guess we will never know the outcome for sure

Nobody was discriminating any cultures either except yourself Lasuke. Erdrick was simply pointing out that Asian martial arts and fighters are out of place in a medieval European fantasy setting, and I agree to a certain extent. Don't forget that those last three games that you mentioned were made in Asia so it contains their influence, and also the characters in those games with those abilities were from "all over the world". Other than in games, I haven't seen any European medieval movies or stories containing asian martial arts. (By the way I'm implying that any kind of European monks were lousy fighters

)

Ishans Schatten · Post by **Ishans Schatten** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:38 am

I think one skill for Martial arts will be good
You should fight martial arts style if you have no weapon or an special Martial Arts weapon (like iron knuckels).
Your interface for all the difference kick and punches is to difficult

@Lasukie

i wouldnt call Final fantasy or Legend of Dragoon a real RPG, you fight ,level up, fight,...
but you have no real controll how your char live or what skills he learn and you must follow a mainpath.

@ Dyluck

The European Monks fight with sword and shield. The famouse example are the Templars, (knights of the cross, or monks of war) they was a group of monks that fighting very well in the "Holy war" agains the moslems . And after the war against the moslems they have seen that is was wrong, they went to schotland and help the clans fighting the english armys. The European Version of a Monk is the Paladin a holy knight fighting for good and his god.
(have nothing to do with illarion just some history

)

(sorry for my bad english but i hope you understand it anyway)

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 2:04 pm

I don't think too much japanese influence would fit into Illarion.
However, I will concider adding weapons like iron knuckles and perhaps an additionals skill for the like (I always thought there is already a skill for unarmed combat in the game ...)

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 2:29 pm

no there isent I think punching with no weapons is concussion....

thanks for your consideration bror

@dyluck,
thats why the iron knuckles comeinto play. they amplify the punching alot same with the boots the samarai helm AND the headband.
(oh and if i remember, you can already beat up heavily armoured knight by punching:) )

@ishans

I spent many a years to get a black belt, its a long road let me tell you! the interface should be challenging, not Hack an' slash like street fighter.

@ shi long

yes but I can make my skills in the game MATCH o rEXCEED the ones I have in RL without having to powergame....just takes determination.....

Emhyr van Emreis · Post by **Emhyr van Emreis** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:56 pm

Ok, Lasukie, as I already said, yes, as a fighting skill that can harm lightly armored enemies, I thing martial arts is fine. But... prove me that you can disform a 0.8 cm thik, strengthened in some parts, iron cylinder, and I'll believe you everything. Cause that's what you'd need to kill a knight with a chop at the neck, he won't just die because he gets a bit shaken in his armor. Gods, they tended to survive well-aimed sword blows at the head!

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 9:18 pm

heh, it is proven that some martial artist can demolish everything
Hint: martial artist group destroyed a house in hours.

but most armour is thicker the 0.8cm. it is at least 1.5 or thicker.

although it isent the force that kills them its the concussion from the impact

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:28 pm

Quote: from Lasukie on 9:18 pm on April 4, 2002
heh, it is proven that some martial artist can demolish everything
.....
but most armour is thicker the 0.8cm. it is at least 1.5 or thicker.

If it would have been prooven, then no one would be here to see the proof, since nothing existed afterwards....

You say an medival armor is 1.5 cm thick or more.
To cover a body you need at least 1.5 sqare meters of this material (my t-shirt has about 0.8 sqare meters, armors are wider + helmet + gloves + legs+ shoes)
1.5 square meters * 1.5 cm = 22,500 cube cm.
An aluminium armor would weight 60.75 kg (135 lbs).
Same srmor in iron (more realistic): 177.75 kg (395 lbs)

The armor you describe is 2 to 3 times as heavy as the person in the armor.

I haven't lived those days, and I don't know anything about medieval armors, so I am not saying you are wrong, but I think the propability that you are right is very low.

1.5 cm armor is something you have in an armored military vehicle these days (no heavy tank though)

Lasukie · Post by **Lasukie** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:45 pm

it was just a rough asumption the the armour wieghs sometimes the persons wieght if no tlittle less.

well...1.5 cm would be used for something like a halftrack....

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:32 am

do you want ME to make some graphics, if so what ones?

(Edited by Lloyd at 4:00 am on April 6, 2002)