some proposals from a newbie - my first thoughts on Illarion

Sebi · Post by **Sebi** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 4:50 pm

Hi everybody
Like the Topic suggests: IMANEWBIE

I just played Illarion for about 3 days (aprox 1h each) and this is what is think should be changed:

-controlls: sometimes they are a bit annoying. walking for example: i keep pressing the wrong keys - somehow my internal orientation is not compatible with Illarions

Maybe you could change the walking controlls Ultima Online like so that when you press and hold the right mouse button you walk in that direction until it is released (much more ease for longer trips)
it is cool that you can walk on the map - but pathfinding is not really optimal (i know this is not an easy task - i implemented a crude one myself some time ago)

-items for fresh chars: i haven't tested this extensively, but i believe that all players have the same items when they spawn for the first time - i think that should be changed so that not all players have to mine to get their first money - it is not very RP like is you play a young fair elven lady (clad in silk with the sunbeams gleaming in her long golden hair *sigh*) working in a mine digging for iron!
Maybe you could let the player choose a type of profession when they create their char or give them a certain amount of money on char creation (ok, this could be a problem with people creating millions of chars just to get the money) so that players could decide how they want to earn their first money.

-give the player the ability to turn off some annoying messages of the game "XXX arrived..." and so on

- only allow blacksmithing when standing near to an anvil

-perhaps use system could be revised too maybe just shift click on item you want to be used - if you want to use one item on another (e.g. hammer on iron ore) you have to have the hammer in hand and just shift click on the iron ore - if you just want to use an item (e.g. book) the you hands have to be free and just shift click on the book

thats it for the moment - btw: GREAT game if you consider that it's still not finished (by far?)
if anything above has already been mentioned i'm sorry for it (anyways thats just putting more emphasis on the matter

) but i was just too lazy to read all the posts on this board ;|

Sebi
{"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. "}

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 5:08 pm

Yes, it is planned in far future to expand the UI to a GUI. But no concrete ideas about it until now.
In the next version, you will need the anvil to smith, i guess. The items may vary later on, or not. But it's an idea to give people other stuff than shovel and hammer.

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 5:18 pm

Maybe have it so only people who you know (have #i'd you)
will be displayed on the XXX has entered illarion. That would help.

Astral · Post by **Astral** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 7:24 pm

If you double click on a place somewhere on the screen, you will automatically walk there. If the arrow keys are too disorienting (it does take a bit of getting used to), then you can always use that function.

Sebi · Post by **Sebi** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 2:46 pm

Yeah, I know that double clicking walk command (actually I'm one who reads the manual

)
but as i said before pathfinding is very unacurate.

sean · Post by **sean** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 5:09 pm

I'd like to make a point or a few:
1) Every single one of your suggestions came from other games
2) almost every one was used already
3) your sacrcasm be it discreet is rather bad, and insults me (by far)

Astral · Post by **Astral** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:25 pm

Sean, do you have any better proposals? Look at some of your proposals too, before you judge others. Alot of your proposals have been worse than these.

And the reason all the proposals come from other games, is because Illarion needs to be improved, using a couple of realistic things from other games.

Like this one:

Quote: from sean on 1:26 pm on Jan. 12, 2002

skills (fighting)
it has come to my attention that many weapons are very weak compared to
Firesword (slashing)
Spear Like battle staff (staff/Concusion)
Wand (magic)
Scissors (puncture/concussion)
however if we have seperate skills (keeping the overall skills already implemented into the game) that you (the admins) coul implement a similar systemt o that of perfect imperfect armour even after hours of powergaming you would not be the best ever as youyr skills can only continue to rise making powergaming an endless event but losing more powergamers who are to bord trying to be perfect it wouls also allow sikles and daggers to become as deadly as fires swords and war staffs

Dont tell me you thought of that all yourself. I dont think that a needle could ever be as deadly as a sword.

(Edited by Astral at 12:32 pm on Feb. 17, 2002)

Goldmoon · Post by **Goldmoon** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:57 pm

@sean: so what if the idea's come from other games? that just means it's a good idea and it should be incorparated in the game. Don't put people's ideas down so readily. And how can what he says insult you?! there is nothing in there even remotely offensive. And so what if some ideas have been suggested. I don't mean to sound so harsh, but you should really think about what you're saying first. Expressing your ideas is good, unless all your ideas are negative. Try and give some positive comments as well.

@Sebi: I don't know what you mean by the controls idea. Personally i find the controls fine, but that might be because i'm used to it. When you say pathfinding, do you mean that when you double click on the map and then you walk into a rock it doesn't walk around it? If that's what you mean then yes, i also find it extremely annoying. But i assume it is probably difficult to program even the least bit of AI for your characters or else Bror and the team would probably have done it by now

(Edited by Goldmoon at 11:59 pm on Feb. 17, 2002)

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 9:12 am

About the Pathfinding: There are already algorithms for it in the server, so there would be no problem. The problem is, that the client doesn't have the information, where he can walk, and where not, so the server must do it. The pathfinding algorithm, if it should be used to improove gameplay, would only be used to walk long destinations. The computation work for this algorithm is already big, and it rises enormous with the maximum destination it searches.
I believe the monsters search their way in a 7x7 square. If they should search in a 14x14 sqare (4 times as large area), there will be 16 times the computation work. To make it useful for the players, there would have to be at least a 50x50 square (2600 times computation work) and the algorithm would be used by every player -> extreme lag.
@Start items: This will be keyed to the race and gender you choose at the beginning in the next server version. It can't depend on the profession, since you should choose the profession in game after a few hours playing.
@Messages: We plan to make different colors for the different types of messages (friends talks, somebodies talk, server messages, whispering...). There should also be the possibility to turn of the messages and scroll the message history. Not every text will appear in the game area, some status messages only in the history below.
@sean: I don't see sarcasm in his posting, just frustration in yours. Ideas from other games are not bad, as long as they fit to Illarion.

Sebi · Post by **Sebi** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 10:43 am

i dont really know how illarions client-server architecture is designed, but what about this solution: The client has detailed data about the short range environment and only scarce or no data about the long range environment. Now if you dclick on the map the client could calculate a potential path with the data he has (the map display data - i'm not sure if this is saved clientside or transfered on runtime) using A* with some motion planning, potential fields etc.
then the client starts to walk towards the target, following it's calculated path. Along the way it always recieves new data from the server. With this data he calculates short range targets that modify his path as a reaction on obstacles in the way (thats much like quake 3 bots navigate on maps). However problems could arise if a way that seemed to be open on the long range now is completely closed and no way through is visible in short range distance. I guess the client would have to pop up a message like "Your way is blocked" or something else.
If you do it this way network traffic should stay the same (perhaps only slightly raised due to faster sequential client movement - but only if you are not polling the client in regular intervals) but movement should be a lot better. Only the clients take some more processing power - but that should be minimal.

@sean:i'm sorry if i insulted you - it was in no way my intention to insult or criticise anyone on this board.

Sebi

Galdriel · Post by **Galdriel** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:23 pm

the solution in a game most of us know the calculation is done entirely
on the client side, with the known map.

result is, that if the map changes, one runs into an obstacle.

if this was possible, i would suggest reliving the server of this work, since most people have faster machines anyway than the server will ever be.
but that of course depends on, if this can be realized with an acceptable amount of work.

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 4:14 pm

If they implemented the "Your path is blocked" message
every time a person runs into something, will that apply to arrow keys?
Because that will spam the screen if it isn't controlled.
I would say for advice: Try to get used to arrow keys for now, and
wait and see what the GM's can do for you.

sean · Post by **sean** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 10:58 pm

I'd like to make a point to goldmoon, That means illarion will slowly become yet another clone

Astral · Post by **Astral** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:39 am

No, Illarion is far more realistic than most other games, so i dont see how it is becoming just another clone.

@Erdrick:
Good point, it could get very bad when alot of people are in the shop and the mines. I guess it may have to be controlled, like if you try repeatedly, the message will come only to you.

Goldmoon · Post by **Goldmoon** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:46 am

no sean, i don't think it's becoming a clone. If you take an idea from one game and another idea from another game then you come up with a completly new game. Sure it may have some qualities of other games, but it's almost like taking the best of one game and the best of another, add some of your own stuff and ideas, and wham! you got yourself a new, different and good game.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:55 pm

well...

a clone?
uhh-huh?
i see nothing wrong while trying to make illarion more fun and easier to play, by taking some ideas from other games.
it doesnt mean that we would be "cloning" illarion to be a copy of the certain game, would it?
theoratically almost all games are copies of eachother.. dwarves, elves, humans, orks, axes, swords, monsters, magics, gold uh- do i really need to tell you more?