Bye

[Dair Essel]

I said if I had a little less self control Car, Plus even if your in town your not rping a lyrenzia councilor.

[Caranthir the great]

I assume that you have some superb defination of how one should act as a councilor? Perhaps you would like to englighten Caranthir?

[Dair Essel]

Sure I would, Acting like a Councilor means to go around TOWN since that is your limits and fixing little spats here and there. It also means discussing the actions that have happened today with the town guard. Who was sent to prison and for what, attacks on town. And things of that sort.

It doesnt mean, going into mines (said that because I think car is a dwarf) and working your but off for whatever amount of time. It is basically doing the job that you have

[Cain Freemont]

Skill gain is not impossible

Skill gain is not impossible, but unless you devote your life to the game, you will not improve. Most people play games for entertainment, not to let their lives pass them by.

[Dair Essel]

Im roleplaying all the time. Running around with a band of orcs, chatting to a few people. Running from and shouting names at people I dislike.

And even while rping my skills are good. Except for shooting with a bow, but that is getting better.

[Caranthir the great]

It also means discussing the actions that have happened today with the town guard. Who was sent to prison and for what, attacks on town. And things of that sort.

Nice to see that you are pulling assumptions out of nowhere. What makes you think that Caranthir doesn't do exactly that?

Remember that Caranthir is one of those councilors who are not widely known to be ones. He represents a Guild, that's it. There is a logic and reasoning behind his his does and do not's (which you do not need to know, by the way.)

It doesnt mean, going into mines (said that because I think car is a dwarf) and working your but off for whatever amount of time. It is basically doing the job that you have

But Mining and Merchanting is basically what Caranthir does for living. Lyrenzia councilorship is simply something that is done for the SSM.

[Cain Freemont]

Im roleplaying all the time. Running around with a band of orcs, chatting to a few people. Running from and shouting names at people I dislike.

And even while rping my skills are good. Except for shooting with a bow, but that is getting better.

How often do you play?

[Gigasha]

I am at a loss. Somethingis wrong. What it is, I am not sure. However, people have left and are leaving at a rate I have never witnessed before. I can only speculate.

1. Lyrenzia has been a thorn in some peoples sides.
   
   Maybe the multiple states of war and all the bloodshed are problems
   
   The new magic and fighting system have "levelled the ballfield" so to speak. Many that were demi-god like, now have to deal with the balanced skills characters
   
   Hagen Rabenfield has WAY too much power, but that can be dealt with in-game.
   
   The GM's are not accesible enough. And that is the only bad thing I can say about them.
   
   Otherwise, I shall continue to play. Sorry though I am to see Grant /Bumbol leave. (that still shocks me, but not really if I think about it).
   
   And to the others, stick it out if you can. Things will never calm down, that is not the way of Illarion. A certain amount of chaos makes for a spontaneous RP situation. Which enriches the game. But maybe you can find a rythym to that chaos and make it work for you.

[/i]

[Dair Essel]

I play on a small average now of about 2 hours a day. If that

[Cuderon]

I ever liked the idea of an independent bunch of villains in the woods like the movement was, but you overdid serveral things. Fighting here, fighting there, commiting crimes here and there, not a wonder that the movement wasn´t the best friend of righteous characters. But, well, playing the mean guys isn´t wrong. But you have to deal with this situation.

I think that´s the point. The villians that didn´t cooperate with Darlok had no choice but to get into town. Only a depot isn´t enough for a independent group to live. There should have been more posibillitys than Darlok or Lyrenzia to live with... I wonder why the Movement didn´t build up a real alternative. Ingame it would be just good RP to build up some hideouts... one that provides anvil and oven... another with a gem grinder and so on... spreaded across the island and each with a depot. Some might think "Hey, depots are expensive!" but the people of Trolls's Bane never did pay anything.

In fact it is illogical to charge more than some wood and ore to get a depot (or other things for the other things) set down. Wich doesn´t mean that depots are free for everyone, placed everywere.

There is a lack of specified GMs, at least of a GM that represents the interests of the non-Villagers or non-Northeroters.
I think we need GMs or something equivalent for the different races, groups and languages.
Is there any natural english speaking GM at all?


Farewell Grant.

[Grant Herion]

*snickers*

My farewell post becomes a post about Lyrenzia and such...

Well, in that case, the reason people hate Lyrenzia ooc is because if it didn't have ooc powers it wouldn't be anything...
Think a moment please,
Why can Lyrenzia come out of no where and be able to access the jail? What did the Lyrenzia councilors do to get the right to use the jail ingame? What quest did they do? They didnt build it, so how come they get to use it the first day it is made.

It makes no sense ingame.
If everyone else must go through a long/difficult quest to get some sort of GM abilities, why was Lyrenzia an acception?

[Vindigan]

You like to see chars with names like "motherkiller" or other shit?
You like to see PKs, just murdering for their (the players) fun like "Darkwalker", "Jocas" and others?
You like to see the whole crap of non-rpers like in the former times?
You like to carry 8000 plate mails in your belt and sell to Eliza (what a wonderful economic system and what value of goods)?
You like to have each char a super magican, able to cast all things indepentend from his intelligence or other attributes?
You like to have unhurtable two shield mages?
You like to have ....
I mentioned only some obvoius reasons, why it become better with the account system and other changes.

Sorry, i dont know where you come up with some of these points. The account system only stops bad names, not bad roleplayers. you can post the beginning of the story on a RP board somewhere and say "finish this off best you can!" hey presto, your in the game.

When i used to play, this game was fun. People didn't get pissed off for getting killed, they had fun instead.

You have some valid arguments, but there are some things you didn't mention. Like how can you roleplay with 1 - 2 other players online (when you actualy find them that is) and IMO there are more powergamers now than there were back then! people train all day long to gain skills because it takes forever to be good at anything. Maybe someone wants to roleplay a master magician? almost impossible now with all the changes, you have to play all day every day to be able to cast the most basic spells. Yes maybe this is more "realistic" but this is a game, not a second world!

[Guardian Angel]

Dair Essel, I think most of those little things should be the job of the town guard, to fix little messes as look at daily things. To me, it would seems a Councilor is a high status noble like job that involves sitting at meetings anad making decisions and too busy for commoners most of the time.

You can't just say what a councilor HAS to do. Roleplying a person who does his job badly is not the same as roleplaying badly. A job is only one aspect of a role, among personality, martial status, situational factors, etc., and its supposed to be a dynamic aspect too. A character who's job is a smith can try to smith as good or badly, as often or little, platemails or spoons, as successfully or poorly he wants his character too.


Lyrenzia is scapegoat to some people who are fairly decent roleplayers but who don't grasp the entire roleplaying concept. They think it's about doing what you want when you want, and when something happens in the world that changes the situation, they can't get around it. It's like saying "No fair I wanted to play a robber who robs the shop, but because some others play knights who formed an alliance and defend the shop, it ruined my roleplay beacause now its too hard for me to rob the shop! Thefore I think the knight alliance is bad for roleplay!"

Whoever said that they HAD to wait for Lyrenzia's decision in the drought instead of trying to come up with your own solutions, that was plain bullshit. There is completely no technical restriction that ever forces you to do what Lyrenzia says in any situation. You just have to face the their reactions just as you have to face the consequences of any other interaction you engage in Illarion, whether friendly or not.

[Guardian Angel]

*snickers*

My farewell post becomes a post about Lyrenzia and such...

Well, in that case, the reason people hate Lyrenzia ooc is because if it didn't have ooc powers it wouldn't be anything...
Think a moment please,
Why can Lyrenzia come out of no where and be able to access the jail? What did the Lyrenzia councilors do to get the right to use the jail ingame? What quest did they do? They didnt build it, so how come they get to use it the first day it is made.

It makes no sense ingame.
If everyone else must go through a long/difficult quest to get some sort of GM abilities, why was Lyrenzia an acception?

You're right. It's the ooc power. That's what the gripe is really about, isn't it?

Why can they not be an exception? Is there some competition for GM abilities that there should be some kind of fair race for everybody? So your gripe is that their superior abilities tilt the playing field for Lyrenzia against which you supposedly feel an ooc need to fairly compete against when you are fighting with them ic. You see speical GM abilities to be something that's supposed to pop up during a "quest" and then goes away, and you don't like the fact that Lyrenzia is regular players doing everyday things and not just a 5 minute event.

Well, you know what, you have to understand that this game of Illarion is one entire big quest. If Some things disappear after a while, and some things are not easy to go away, whether characters or organizations, and that's how a roleplaying world is. As long as Lyrenzia satisfies some condition that the GMs feel they can still logically do what they do (whether by numbers or money, etc), then it may keep staying that way. There is no "default" situation that the game must reset to. The world changes everyday and you have to deal with the situaiton that comes up.


It makes perfect sense ingame. They have numbers, strength, money, and have friendships with the constructers who built their old buildings like the library, tavern, workshop, etc.

[Grant Herion]

it makes no sense ingame. the prison was something the gods used before lyrenzia, then the next day, lyrenzia has the power to jail with no way to roleplay stopping it.
Darlok even says that there was a way to roleplay stopping him from getting his castle, so why wasnt there one against lyrenzia?

[The Returner]

Dair Essel, I think most of those little things should be the job of the town guard, to fix little messes as look at daily things. To me, it would seems a Councilor is a high status noble like job that involves sitting at meetings anad making decisions and too busy for commoners most of the time.

Hmm, true that is...

You can't just say what a councilor HAS to do.

These are called "votes" which are usually "Burned" using "ra kel"

Roleplying a person who does his job badly is not the same as roleplaying badly. A job is only one aspect of a role, among personality, martial status, situational factors, etc., and its supposed to be a dynamic aspect too. A character who's job is a smith can try to smith as good or badly, as often or little, platemails or spoons, as successfully or poorly he wants his character too.

Good point, but most people powergame, not try to do badly.

Lyrenzia is scapegoat to some people who are fairly decent roleplayers but who don't grasp the entire roleplaying concept. They think it's about doing what you want when you want, and when something happens in the world that changes the situation, they can't get around it. It's like saying "No fair I wanted to play a robber who robs the shop, but because some others play knights who formed an alliance and defend the shop, it ruined my roleplay beacause now its too hard for me to rob the shop! Thefore I think the knight alliance is bad for roleplay!"

Wrong. read next

Whoever said that they HAD to wait for Lyrenzia's decision in the drought instead of trying to come up with your own solutions, that was plain bullshit. There is completely no technical restriction that ever forces you to do what Lyrenzia says in any situation. You just have to face the their reactions just as you have to face the consequences of any other interaction you engage in Illarion, whether friendly or not.

Yes there is, its called "good players get the glory, anyone who differs from that, doesent." Remember this mana well nonsense?

And one added thing about lyrenzia, and technical restrictions:

pretty much, lyrenzia is "Cross us, and meet the jail cell for 10hrs" Really, i see no "technical" reason why lyrenzia (an obviously modern government) should exist in illarion (a land supposed to be ruled by monarchies and anarchies)

BTW later grant, i will miss our many meetings at the border and in darloks castle

[Guardian Angel]

it makes no sense ingame. the prison was something the gods used before lyrenzia, then the next day, lyrenzia has the power to jail with no way to roleplay stopping it.
Darlok even says that there was a way to roleplay stopping him from getting his castle, so why wasnt there one against lyrenzia?

I don't know why the gods put an ooc prison in-game but if its there then its there. Whoever built it, I don't know, but Lyrenzia takes it and slaps a few guards there and makes bars and locks, and so they have it obviously. If you can stop Lyrenzia from taking the prison, can I just bring some friends, march up to Darlok's castle and just say I've stopped Darlok from owning the castle? Obviously this we can't roleplay like this, and you know it. Or if you claim there's a way you can take Darlok's castle, then apply same method with any other building then.


And let see... you can...
1) avoid getting seen doing the crime
2) avoid being found guilty in court
3) avoid being caught after you are found guilty
4) beat the guards
5) stay out of town
6) undermine members of Lyrenzia so they leave
7) foreseen Lyrenzia and stop it from forming in the first place?

How else do you want it roleplayed then? Players standing in front of the prison 24/7 so you can try to break in?

[Derinoar Fallvictor]

3) avoid being caught after you are found guilty

Inmpossable...

[The Returner]

The flaws in that argument are so obvious, i will not try to point them out

*smiles and nods.....then walks away chuckling*

[Grant Herion]

No no, you missed my point, I am saying ooc, how come Lyrenzia was granted the power to jail? Darlok had to go on a quest for 3 months or so to get a castle. Shouldn't Lyrenzia have had a quest to get the key to the prison that the gods, (gms), had used?


ps- Serp made the prison...

[Ezor Edwickton]

Next Quest:

To overthrow Lyrenzia

[Grant Herion]

Grant just needs his uber strength back and the old fighting system to be back for a week or so... Then Lyrenzia would be at his knees!

[Derinoar Fallvictor]

and i;d be there right beside him

[Derinoar Fallvictor]

Next Quest:

To overthrow Lyrenzia

wait wait...your stealing the movement's story line for a quest...tsk tsk

[Guardian Angel]

Sorry Returner, but you've clearly missed the difference between ooc and ic issues.

You can't just say what a councilor HAS to do.

These are called "votes" which are usually "Burned" using "ra kel"

I'm talking ooc about not defining a character's role, not in-game control of a charcter's job.

Whoever said that they HAD to wait for Lyrenzia's decision in the drought instead of trying to come up with your own solutions, that was plain bullshit. There is completely no technical restriction that ever forces you to do what Lyrenzia says in any situation. You just have to face the their reactions just as you have to face the consequences of any other interaction you engage in Illarion, whether friendly or not.

Yes there is, its called "good players get the glory, anyone who differs from that, doesent." Remember this mana well nonsense?

Again you have mixed IC and OOC into the argument. The only glory to be gained is and IC matter. There is no OOC glory to be gained. I feel sorry for you if you think this game is a competition to gain glory.

According to your logic, I should complain that anyone who has more fighting skills than me is a "technical restriction" on what I can and can't do.

Really, i see no "technical" reason why lyrenzia (an obviously modern government) should exist in illarion (a land supposed to be ruled by monarchies and anarchies)

Yes, to rephrase what you said, I also don't see why Lyrenzia needs an OOC reason to exist IC. You make no sense. You are just mixing IC and OOC everywhere, trying to use any word or idea of mine that you can in your rebuttle just in a vain attempt to look whitty.

[Drogan Thunderhammer]

it makes no sense ingame. The prison was something the gods used before lyrenzia, then the next day, lyrenzia has the power to jail with no way to roleplay stopping it.

There needs to be some IC explanation for the massive building located in the southern part of the island though, doesn't there? It can't suddenly appear and exist only for OOC purposes, if that were the case the building would have to be invisible to all characters and only visible to the players. That, Grant, makes no sense. It does, however, make complete and logical sense that a town that is run, so to speak, by the collective efforts of some of the oldest and most powerful guilds on the island, who have a set of laws they enforce, should be able to punish those they deem to be criminals. These punishments are handed out in the form of a prison sentence. This is very realistic. You get convicted of a crime in an established city and you go to prison. This makes sense.

Darlok even says that there was a way to roleplay stopping him from getting his castle, so why wasn’t there one against lyrenzia?

There are numerous ways to rebel against Lyrenzia, or even remove the influence of their power. Lyrenzia did not just materialize out of the thin air, as you seem to think, it was in planning for quite a long time before it was made public. In the past, there was even a failed attempt to create something similar to that which is now Lyrenzia, the Guild Council. Lyrenzia was created by the collective efforts of many very powerful guilds within the community. How are you (A single character) going to oppose the financial and physical might, will, and political clout of such a large group alone? You can't overthrow something that is so powerful without equal power. You have to realize how much more powerful a single guild would be over a person, or even a small group of people. On top of that, a guild of guilds, which is in a sense what Lyrenzia is, would be far more powerful than any single guild you or anyone else could create. You want to try and topple a virtual kingdom with a group of ex-assassins. It's not going to happen. Lyrenzia was put into place in an RP way, over the course of many months, even years, if you consider the time that many of the guilds existed and evolved before they came together to found Lyrenzia. Of course there are ways to combat Lyrenzia. They only hold power over those who live within their realm. Due to the fact that they are the most dominant, and powerful entity within the walls of Trolls Bane, they CAN enforce their laws on anyone in their town.

You took the first step in combating this power when you left the town, but this is where your success ended. If you had attempted to create a new town instead of attacking the old, again and again, you could have nullified the power of Lyrenzia over you. If there were another town founded, the citizens within Trolls Bane who were not affiliated with and disagreed with the principles of Lyrenzia, would then have a place to go, instead of Northerot, which is considered as an evil monarchy by most characters, or the woods, where one would have to eek out an existence, rather than advance in society. You then would be the one ruling over them, and they arguing with you. Lyrenzia would hold no influence over this new town, the same as it holds no influence over Northerot now. From there, a relationship between the towns would be forged, allowing for even more RP opportunities. Yet, for your part, you insisted on attacking those who you felt had more power than you because you wanted that power, and instead of trying to gain the power that they held in the same way they did, you wanted a quick and easy solution to the matter in the form of a hostile take over. Of course your tactic of repeatedly violating the towns existing laws would not make them change their laws. Of course their laws apply to you, if you are going to be using the privileges of their town. If you don’t think this is realistic, then take a step into the real world, travel to some distant country and try and tell them that their laws don’t apply to you because you don’t want to be subject to their government. If you want to live by your own rules, do what it takes to get into a position of absolute power where only you have a say in what rules and laws there are and that must be followed. Don’t try and win a war against seven or eight entire guilds with your one, or attack a Kingdom ruled by some Tyrant who is known to have connections to unworldly powers. That, Grant, is the only thing that makes no sense in all of this.

[Guardian Angel]

ps- Serp made the prison

Are you saying the character Serpardum single handedly built the prison IC?
If not, I don't see your point. First you were talking about how it makes no sense in game, and now you've swtiched your argument again to how OOC they earned GM powers.

No no, you missed my point, I am saying ooc, how come Lyrenzia was granted the power to jail? Darlok had to go on a quest for 3 months or so to get a castle. Shouldn't Lyrenzia have had a quest to get the key to the prison that the gods, (gms), had used?

No. Why should they have to? Why should they "earn" the right to something that isn't a "reward"? Is getting GM powers some kind of competition? No. It's a parameter to be used for whatever the GMs want/allow in the form of a story, quest, whatever.
As I already said:

You're right. It's the ooc power. That's what the gripe is really about, isn't it?

Why can they not be an exception? Is there some competition for GM abilities that there should be some kind of fair race for everybody? So your gripe is that their superior abilities tilt the playing field for Lyrenzia against which you supposedly feel an ooc need to fairly compete against when you are fighting with them ic. You see speical GM abilities to be something that's supposed to pop up during a "quest" and then goes away, and you don't like the fact that Lyrenzia is regular players doing everyday things and not just a 5 minute event.

Well, you know what, you have to understand that this game of Illarion is one entire big quest. If Some things disappear after a while, and some things are not easy to go away, whether characters or organizations, and that's how a roleplaying world is. As long as Lyrenzia satisfies some condition that the GMs feel they can still logically do what they do (whether by numbers or money, etc), then it may keep staying that way. There is no "default" situation that the game must reset to. The world changes everyday and you have to deal with the situaiton that comes up.

[Derinoar Fallvictor]

I didn't read the last part i'm about to but..your wrong Ly. doesn't just controll people in their realm...

[Grant Herion]

Well, most characters that get GM powers have to do something to get GM powers,
examples:

Darlok
Dyluck
Myself


Many others who get certain GM powers have to do certain things to get those powers. I am not jealous of the prison keys, I am saying that it isn't fair that councilors/anyone get prison keys for doing nothing.

[The Returner]

Guardian Angel, did i strike a nerve?


so sorry.