Unbalances of new fighting system

Zeshyrr · Post by **Zeshyrr** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:18 am

#1
Parry makes too little a difference. Parry is for blocking attacks but now even with high parry there is no difference?

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:19 am

flies seem to be able to hit a lot easier.... even through armor... and fairly good parry...

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:23 am

As far as I know, parrying is slipping through attacks as they're swung at you; not necessarily "blocking" them.

As for the dodge skill, I have to do a bit more work to find what the heck that is about.

Belegi · Post by **Belegi** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:34 am

I totally disagree that those changes are "unbalanced". The old system made it possible to block the blows of demons (!!!) and have breakfast in Drakhen´s Castle.

Flies: Ever ran into a swarm bees wearing a plate mail and a shield? What did you do to block their stings? Raise your shield?!

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:50 am

Dont expect fights without scratches anymore.
You will get hit, no matter how good you are.

Malinne · Post by **Malinne** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:55 am

I think that the changes are awesome and do seem to make a lot more sense.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:58 am

that sounds reasonable. but whats the ratio between weapons and armor and skills? is it more the wepaon that makes the fighter or the skills he and or she posess's? my Character basically only uses wind arrows and the best type battle staff, they both are weaken which is probably a good thing. but staff does seem to weak to me...

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:00 am

Can you explain more detailed what the term "too weak" means?
Two-hit-kills are no longer possible, or only hard to achive.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:03 am

Well that might explain it a bit, that was my usual attack one blow or more with my staff, probably why it seems so weak to me comparitvily. oh well i'll get used to it. that enough outta me

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:08 am

Imagine a fight. Both fighters wear a shield. Both use weapons. They hit each other, on the shield. With every hit, a shield gets a little deformed, and some deep scratches in its paint.

Now, imagine that YOU wear a shield. Imagine that someone swings a heavy thing, sword, hammer, axe or even a wooden staff with metal ends with a lot of speed at you. Imagine that you manage to get your shield to block the blow. Imagine the energy necessary to raise up the heavy shield, and imagine the reaction of your muscles after a longer fight.
And, imagine the energy of each blow, blocked by your shield : Your shield is held by your arm. You yourself must stop the energy from the attack. And a blow strong enough to damage a metal shield, will give you some smaller blessures. After some time, your arm will get heavy, and hurt with every move. You will get the shield up slower and slower.

The hits in a medieval fight were not from lightweight things. In a fight, these metal shields often BROKE. Imagine your shield arm after such a fight...

Yes. Green and blue on the spots where the shield rested.

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:04 am

So, if you could barely block demons now, does that mean that they will kill me instantly?? Because, I used to go int he demon cave (though i am not good at fighting by any means) and use two lion shields, while using flames and paralyzing spells to killt he dmeons. Does this mean that the demons are more acruate, and will now be able to kill me even quicker??

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:25 am

And why is this in the Technical Difficulties/? Shoudlnt be under general or something?

Gurik Elvenstar · Post by **Gurik Elvenstar** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:34 am

yes flies can hit a lot easier its only tough when there are like 4 or 5 attacking you. Ogres are damn strong even with my parry which is pretty good. Scorpions are not hard but the system does make sense it will just take time to get used to

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:42 am

Wait. So, even if you were the best fighter, if 10 flies come up on you, you will die VERY quickly?!

Im sorry, but THAt DOESNT make any sense....They are JUST flies! I think if you do this they need to be much weaker... MUCH WEAKER

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:50 am

I have nothing to say about the flies ordeal or anything of that matter.

I am here to talk about the 2h sword and long axe. An orc said something about it being a lot weaker now after he tried killing me for my plate. He said it in OOC too.

And no, things do hit you, but with good parry you hardly feel a thing. The damage is so slight that it is hardly noticable when being attacked.

Things do less damage. Making battles last longer. Which is OK.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:07 am

2h are to weak, takes sabout the same amount of hits with 2h as with a sword. And those to skills are the same in my case.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:39 pm

Nilo wrote:Wait. So, even if you were the best fighter, if 10 flies come up on you, you will die VERY quickly?!

Im sorry, but THAt DOESNT make any sense....They are JUST flies! I think if you do this they need to be much weaker... MUCH WEAKER

Of course it does. Imagine huge swarms of insects, as big as your fist probably, flying all around you getting into your armor, biting away at your body.

And imagine the skeletons. People complain that they're "too strong." However, they aren't affected well with certain types of weapons, because all they are...are walking bones. Magical undead, carrying shields and weapons. Of course it should be difficult to take them down.

And hopefully, they took the demons out of the game except if there's a quest or something. They're too supernatural to be hunted like mere wild boar like they used to be in the old system...

The only problem I have with the combat system is the lack of effectivity with the two handed weapons. They still deal a good amount of damage, but people get hit (and instead of acting like they're getting hurt), they type #me yawns then say "You are so weak. Back off." Then I get pushed back while the drink a potion or use a healing spell or something.

That's crappy roleplaying on their part actually. I just hope people learn to roleplay properly with this new combat system, rather than call everybody weak or say "the monsters were made stronger" IC.

Darkform · Post by **Darkform** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:53 pm

Nilo wrote:Wait. So, even if you were the best fighter, if 10 flies come up on you, you will die VERY quickly?!

Im sorry, but THAt DOESNT make any sense....They are JUST flies! I think if you do this they need to be much weaker... MUCH WEAKER

if you manage to get surounded by 10 flys you deserve the fate .

however this is stitisticly imposable . at most you would have 3 flys unles they add more then the maximum at one time would be 8 . unles the one surounded did some hacking at whitch point deserves his/her fate .

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:36 am

Magic is a way of fighting...so I figured I'd ask here.

Is it possible to cast more than 4 spells? I have all the runes, and I know the new system requires you to have items........but I seem to be able to cast 4 spells no matter what. Healing, fire ball, ice attack, and paralysis. I've tried utilizing resources hinted in the book but didn't seem to help. I just want to know if the magic part is still being worked on.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:47 am

I noticed something. It's completely unbalanced between magic and combat. For one thing, I think it's harder to learn spells and such. Yet you guys didn't do a magic wipe. What's with that? Veterans are walking around bossing people around now because getting two hits off is no big deal anymore on a caster even with leather on. The caster just paralyzes the person after getting hit by the relatively weak attacks. And then just get kills to death by flames just standing there.

Frankly, I think it needs a magic wipe. You tried making it almost impossible for good magic, but old members are like experts at it.

Another point on the weapons versus what kind of creature. Yeah, I like it. But it puts skills to waste. I mean, what's the point. I got really good skills with a slashing weapon, but it takes like 20 hits to kill a skeleton. I am almost nothing in concussion but kill it with a warhammer in 2 - 3 hits? Oh come on. Skills are worthless except for parry!

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:53 am

If they do a magic wipe, they should do a fighting wipe, that way fighters can't boss around magic users with no fighting skills. A balancing factor is it takes more mana for any spell, and the healing spell doesn't heal hardly as much as it used to. Well at least mage's shields are out of commision, you should be thankful of that.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:00 am

Concerning the flies. When you attack flies you don't attack just one. Each square of flies consist of a group of flies, a swarm. You can't block every attack, that's impossible so it is inevitable that they will hit you. Now imagine 4 swarms of flies, there are so many you can barely see most of them, let alone hit them. The flies in game are more like killer bees IMO. One nest of killer bees could kill anyone, even the best warrior.

Remember: in the end, not even a tiger can defeat the worms.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:03 am

I find this extremely odd, my mage has no problem killing flies in like 4-5 hits with a battle staff, and he is about an assistant in concussion weapons. I admit he takes a little damage.....but he's wearing cloths with leather gloves and boots.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:06 am

If he has on boots gloves pants and shirt there is little room for the flies to hit. If you attacked them with a sword it could takes ages, but with a staff you are swatting them, which is how you deal with flies.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:55 am

There are more then four spells.

Falk vom Wald · Post by **Falk vom Wald** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:55 am

Yes, we are still working on new spells and the balance of power between mages and warriors.
The story was that with the breaking of the runes, the magical circle destroyed the old spells. So now, the spells have to be "discovered" and "developed" again. As to be said ooc: I am scripting and developing a greater amount of spells, others are testing them and soon after successfull tests they will be installed to the system. But at that moment, these new spells might not always be ready balanced what has to be done empirically. But deliberate: Mages do not wear metal armor or shields any more, some spells need huge amount of mana, so mages can no longer cast deadly spells again and again without regeneration. Spells might be thrown back on to the caster and bring him the demage that was slated for his enemy. These are big disadvantages now that have to be countervailed by the results of spells. For example take the paralysis spell: we now have to balance the time of paresis, but also there might be an anti-paralysis spell one day.

Another point is that mages should not be the majority class in Illarion. IMO mages should be organized in circles, schools or secret societies, where they learn new spells, the handling, and where magical knowledge is put about. The problem nowadys is, IMO, that everybody ca say: dumdidum, I am mage....., without roleplaying it and with no fear of beeing under the control of some ingame master-mages.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:13 pm

but if mages are as equal as fighters, then a mix of a mage and fighter is impossible to beat.

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:15 pm

There's a problem with that, though. Almost everyone refuses to teach anything about magic.

Aside from this, those who are willing to play masters, learned magic the original way and have no hint as to how the new way works.

In summation, those who don't know, can't, and those who do know, don't tell.

Maybe the old system where you absolutely needed a teacher would have accomplished that more effectively. As it is now, a few have learned on their own. Sometimes they have gone so far as to use shoddy roleplaying to get their spells. (Someone who is busy as a crafter, salesman, and, on top of that, fighting monsters, shouldn't be able to spend a week figuring out riddles and *BAM!* they're also a master sorceror on top of all that.)

I, on the other hand, have built this character around the very idea that he would someday be a sorceror. He has other things going on, sure, but nothing that takes so much time as he's used in his studies.

My skill selection says no less. My character gets beat up by flies, but that was an imbalance I chose to create a scholarly character. I'm tired of these folks who, I have no doubt, made a balanced character, with only enough intelligence to cast a few spells, mysteriously gathering the knowledge to influence the world around them with only a few thoughts and gestures.

As things stand, the scholarly sophisticate weakling with no skill beyond his knowledge--the person best suited to become a master sorceror someday--will always be beaten to the chase by the warrior-merchant who has a chest full of ingots three days after his arrival on an island with only a shovel, a hammer, and a pair of pants--someone who merely shouldn't exist in the first.

Don't get me wrong, Falk. I'm always the last to complain about the system. I'm not one of these folks that complain the instant a change in the system harms one of my characters, but I'm starting to get angry about these folks who are skilled in everything and make 20 ingots a day, while playing a peasant in a medieval fantasy setting. These are the folks who are rewarded by the openness of the current system.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:22 pm

Val De Gausse wrote:but if mages are as equal as fighters, then a mix of a mage and fighter is impossible to beat.

Also impossible to be very good at either. Magic takes high intelligence to be decent in, and you need alot of strength to be a good fighter now. So a rough mix of both would make an not terribly strong or good at magic fighter. Not to mention even learning and using magic is at least 20x harder than physical fighting. In physical fighting you have 2 choice skills, in magic you have about 10(not counting all the runes) with no armor, and they are going to have a more complicated system than is in place. I think thats pretty fair.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:26 pm

One Paralysis spell and they are at your will. blast magic and strike