I have on 2 incidents been in trouble with 2 shieldmages and gotten killed..
why? what can a druid possible do against one?
If theres one thing that should urgently be changed in the combat system
it is the bonuses one gets from having 2 shields.
In my opinion it is REALLY silly, but im sure there r others who think diffrently.
2 shields should not improve parry more than 1 shield.
And parrying should take a persons entire focus and concentration,
if someone picks a flower, mines, talks or casts a spell while attacked they should not be able
to parry while doing so.Perhaps a temporary parrydrop?
Meeting a mage who weares 2 shields and attacks u with spells and is untouchable is a VERY boring experince....
Not becuase one is loosing a battle, but because the idea of someone wearing 2 shields feels so dumb.
I could go on and on and give a 100 more reasons why 2 shields bonus is silly.
Why didnt all knights in medieval Europe ride around with 2 shields? ; )
Hope u read this Bror, and hope u agree ; )
Kzarak Zhoruch, Inquisitor of the Bloodskulls Clan...
(The one who always kills for a reason)
2 shield mages - Bror..please read this!
Moderator: Gamemasters
-
Kzarak Zhoruch
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2001 12:32 pm
- Location: Bloodskullscave
- Contact:
2 shield mages
Hehe, there were no mages in RL medieval Europe (I was told in history lessons 
).
So they had to put something else into the other hand. Maybe a sword.
I know that this problem occured earlier. But, think about that: If you would use two shields in RL, you could defend much better than using only one shield. So it's more realistic that two shields give a better defense than only one shield and a sword.
But maybe there should something be done. Maybe that the strength of the spells is calculated by your skills plus the kind of staff you use. If you have none the spells are weeker than if you have one of the normal staff. And such a skull staff would be better than a normal one.
).So they had to put something else into the other hand. Maybe a sword.
I know that this problem occured earlier. But, think about that: If you would use two shields in RL, you could defend much better than using only one shield. So it's more realistic that two shields give a better defense than only one shield and a sword.
But maybe there should something be done. Maybe that the strength of the spells is calculated by your skills plus the kind of staff you use. If you have none the spells are weeker than if you have one of the normal staff. And such a skull staff would be better than a normal one.
-
shona abrios
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 7:07 am
2 shield mages
maybe if you are a mage you should have a book permanently in one of your hands. sorry mages
sorry mages
2 shield mages
If druids and mages have equal grounds in battle, what will be the advantage of being a mage?
2 shield mages
I think a parry bonus for a second shield is realistic, but in most roleplays the mage need at least one hand free for casting spells. A weapon allows enough movement of the hand, but a shield doesnt allows this. So you could say, halve or quarter casting skill, if wearing two shields.
-
Captain Kirk
- Posts: 524
- Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:25 am
- Location: Earth
2 shield mages
Hallo
1. the most "real" magicans can u hit if the use 2 shields but most spellcasters arent "real" magican chars they are mostly fighter chars with the ability to cast spells
2. i think you should try to fight and smith something and you will see you die or get hurt or try to cast and use the shields at the same time in a fight it doesnt work very well
3. because it is logical that 2 shields protect better than 1 shield i think it dont need to get changed
4. magic and armor is a different topic i think
Bye
Read ya
MfG
Capt. Kirk
1. the most "real" magicans can u hit if the use 2 shields but most spellcasters arent "real" magican chars they are mostly fighter chars with the ability to cast spells
2. i think you should try to fight and smith something and you will see you die or get hurt or try to cast and use the shields at the same time in a fight it doesnt work very well
3. because it is logical that 2 shields protect better than 1 shield i think it dont need to get changed
4. magic and armor is a different topic i think
Bye
Read ya
MfG
Capt. Kirk
-
Damien
- Posts: 7845
- Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
- Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
- Contact:
2 shield mages
Mages with two shiels CANNOT lock on targets. If you fight with those and just run around a bit, they will cannot be able to hit you with spells except when you stand still.
If a mage holds his magic wand, which is TWO-HANDED, he can defend with it a bit, but not as good as with two shields.
Only then a mage is able to cast effectively on a running/moving target.
One thing on the two shields thingy :
Using two shiels must not really be especially helpful. Ever tried that with two quite big shields in RL ? tell you what - you will get hit on head and legs or from begind because both shiedls are blocking each other's movement AND your own movement when you are trying to block with them both.
If you have small shields, that only cover your arm (hand-to-elbow-part), it only is possible if you are used to it.
(Edited by Damien at 10:33 am on Sep. 25, 2001)
If a mage holds his magic wand, which is TWO-HANDED, he can defend with it a bit, but not as good as with two shields.
Only then a mage is able to cast effectively on a running/moving target.
One thing on the two shields thingy :
Using two shiels must not really be especially helpful. Ever tried that with two quite big shields in RL ? tell you what - you will get hit on head and legs or from begind because both shiedls are blocking each other's movement AND your own movement when you are trying to block with them both.
If you have small shields, that only cover your arm (hand-to-elbow-part), it only is possible if you are used to it.
(Edited by Damien at 10:33 am on Sep. 25, 2001)
2 shield mages
sure ... I as Druid can run around the mage and he can't lock on me...
But I can't hit him, too, and somewhen one yeg kel will hit and then I stand still
So really funny... I think everyone should be possible to hit, as otherwise a druid cannot harm him.
But I can't hit him, too, and somewhen one yeg kel will hit and then I stand still
So really funny... I think everyone should be possible to hit, as otherwise a druid cannot harm him.
2 shield mages
Farlorn if you have a magic resistance the stunnspell dosnt works
2 shield mages
damien, i think you are right.
the problem with two shields is that the enemy has nothing to worry about.
because is not in danger of being harmed by a weapon, he can go into real close combat and try some otherwise ridiculous attacks. for example just leaning into your shields and attack you over the shields. in rl, it would be total nonsense, regardless if you can cast spells or not.
the problem with two shields is that the enemy has nothing to worry about.
because is not in danger of being harmed by a weapon, he can go into real close combat and try some otherwise ridiculous attacks. for example just leaning into your shields and attack you over the shields. in rl, it would be total nonsense, regardless if you can cast spells or not.
2 shield mages
I'm sorry, but I have to get into this argument. I see the main problem as follows:
A mage requires his hands to cast a spell, wearing a shield restricts that so that therfore a mage cant cast. That is the way it should be. There are different types of spells though, so some a mage can wear a shield to cast while other the shield must be removed.
1. For instance, a spoken spell would only require the lips so he could effectively use a shield, but 2 shields is not understandable.
2. There is another spell that requires the movement of the hands in a certain pattern, this would restrict the use of shields altogether.
3. Then there is another way of casting spells that require ingredients, this would restrict shield use to but only to a minumum.
This is my thought on the mages use of spells and shields together. My thoughts only so anybody else may say what you wish about them. Thanks for listening
A mage requires his hands to cast a spell, wearing a shield restricts that so that therfore a mage cant cast. That is the way it should be. There are different types of spells though, so some a mage can wear a shield to cast while other the shield must be removed.
1. For instance, a spoken spell would only require the lips so he could effectively use a shield, but 2 shields is not understandable.
2. There is another spell that requires the movement of the hands in a certain pattern, this would restrict the use of shields altogether.
3. Then there is another way of casting spells that require ingredients, this would restrict shield use to but only to a minumum.
This is my thought on the mages use of spells and shields together. My thoughts only so anybody else may say what you wish about them. Thanks for listening
2 shield mages
mages DID exist in medival europe...
i might mention a few....
nostredamus
jaque de'moley (the last leader of the knights templar)
Merlin
and many more... you see? they where skilled magicans
nostredamus could predict the future...
jaque de'moley could make himself invisible and he could make people burn just by looking at them...
merlin could talk to different angels and stuff
most of the magicans where historical people...
just to make that clear... they are not fiction...
and maybe some of the things in the legends might have happened
theres alot science cant explain...
i might mention a few....
nostredamus
jaque de'moley (the last leader of the knights templar)
Merlin
and many more... you see? they where skilled magicans
nostredamus could predict the future...
jaque de'moley could make himself invisible and he could make people burn just by looking at them...
merlin could talk to different angels and stuff
most of the magicans where historical people...
just to make that clear... they are not fiction...
and maybe some of the things in the legends might have happened
theres alot science cant explain...
2 shield mages
For the idea of mages needing a free hand to cast a spell, as far as i know mages in illarion cast spells by forming silent words with their lips, not moving their hands.
My question again is: If druids and mages have equal grounds in battle, what will be the advantage of being a mage?
My question again is: If druids and mages have equal grounds in battle, what will be the advantage of being a mage?
2 shield mages
@Dyluck: The mage use two shields and hit the druid with spells with a high parry chance. The druid need a weapon and the shield in the other hand isnt very useful against magic. So the mage has the better chances to win. Is this enough for your question?
2 shield mages
Is there any resaon, every profession must be able to fight any other?
I don't see a reason why a tailor for instance should have the same odds in a fight against a mercenary.
Illarion should require the players to group together to achieve something. It is not our goal to let everyone be able to walk everywhere alone without help. We would like it if persons from different professions group together and form a party to gain greater effort. This means druids, mages fighters, craftsmen... altogether working for the same goal. If everyone is fully effective alone, just has other ways to handle a situation (killing a monster by close arms, distance weapons or magic for instance) it would be very boring.
I don't see a reason why a tailor for instance should have the same odds in a fight against a mercenary.
Illarion should require the players to group together to achieve something. It is not our goal to let everyone be able to walk everywhere alone without help. We would like it if persons from different professions group together and form a party to gain greater effort. This means druids, mages fighters, craftsmen... altogether working for the same goal. If everyone is fully effective alone, just has other ways to handle a situation (killing a monster by close arms, distance weapons or magic for instance) it would be very boring.
2 shield mages
I agree bror but I think the effectiveness of 2 shields should be lowered it is much to easy for people to just equip 2 shields and laugh when people try to hit them.
-
Caranthir the great
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:06 pm
- Contact:
2 shield mages
i agree with those of you , who think that mages should be able to wear only one shield .
they could have something other i hand (like sword) but no casting with two shields on.
they could have something other i hand (like sword) but no casting with two shields on.
2 shield mages
@Rugosch: Well duh of course i know how the mage has the advantage now. You obviously don't understand my question or don't speak english very well. As we can see many people in this thread are hoping to change the system so that a druid and mage have an equal chance against each other in battle which it is not right now. So what I'm saying is if it is changed so that a druid and a mage become equal in battle, then there won't be an advantage to being a mage rather than a druid anymore. Understand?
Please find someone to translate for you if you dont' understand what i'm saying
Please find someone to translate for you if you dont' understand what i'm saying
2 shield mages
Giving druids the chance to defend themselves doesn't automatically mean that druids are equally good fighters.
2 shield mages
Druids DO have a chance to defend themselves, they just can't kill the mage that's all. And I'm pretty sure that most of the druids here want druids being equally effective as a mage in battle. But people who's specialty is making potions wouldn't be as effective in battle against and expert who makes fireballs. I know this makes it uneven for druids against mages in battle but that's the point. A druid has economical advantage and a mage's advantage is in battle. If a druid can't beat a mage then he should run or find another mage to help him.
2 shield mages
Well I see myself as ranger and knight...
So in a close combat I should have the possibility to hit the oponent at least, right? Even more if the opponent is a mage, who doesn't have much expirience in close combat. But - how funny - the mage equips two shields and laughs about my attacks. And even if I wanted to flee... when 3 icebolts kill you have fun running!
So what I say doesn't need to be: make it impossible to wear two shields. The better way would be: make the mages play mages! not fighting machines. not with attributes and skills a very good fighter would want.
But as I know, the people I am talking about have no interest in playing a mage, I must agree with you. Lower the effectivity of the parry skill / increase the chance to hit or make it impossible to wear two shields - at least for mages.
So in a close combat I should have the possibility to hit the oponent at least, right? Even more if the opponent is a mage, who doesn't have much expirience in close combat. But - how funny - the mage equips two shields and laughs about my attacks. And even if I wanted to flee... when 3 icebolts kill you have fun running!
So what I say doesn't need to be: make it impossible to wear two shields. The better way would be: make the mages play mages! not fighting machines. not with attributes and skills a very good fighter would want.
But as I know, the people I am talking about have no interest in playing a mage, I must agree with you. Lower the effectivity of the parry skill / increase the chance to hit or make it impossible to wear two shields - at least for mages.
2 shield mages
The problem lies in the attribute-points-system too. At the moment many are unused but if for example "will power" becomes necessary for casting, then people will have to decide between mage and fighter.
-
Matthias the second
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 6:33 pm
- Contact:
2 shield mages
hmm...thought id give in my two cents...maybe druids could make certain offensive potions, like one that explodes when dropped onto the ground or one that gives them certain advantages over the mage for a short period of time...
-
Captain Kirk
- Posts: 524
- Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:25 am
- Location: Earth
2 shield mages
Hallo
ok do you think if someone can cast spells he is a "mage" or someone can make potions is he then a "druid" or someone can make weapons makes him to a "blacksmith" ??
many think so but does this mean it is right because many players here misuse the abilities to cast spells only to make thier "fighter" chars more deadly or to make easy money with potions.
for exsample you can see them (so called mages) how they train thier magic in non-rpg way (like making many magicfields without a rpg reason or train in the open streets).
i am missing the "warrior" chars (fighting with melee weapons) or the "ranger" char (fighting with bows) or the "peasant" char (perhaps he dont fight much because he dont have much time for it) or the smith (is make many iron stuff and/or gold stuff) and a few other.
why are so many players call thier chars a "mage" or a "druid" ??
it is possible to play the other chars (i was missing yet).
or do all want play only mages and druids also if we get more professions ??? it would be boring (without true fighters, priests, rangers, peasants, smiths, and so on) or ??
i know real "fighter" chars and they hit your real "mage" or "druid" char holding his 2 shields
or i never saw a real "mage" standing in the firstline when they are with other peoples in the spider or worm cave
ps: im very sleepy now sorry perhaps it sounds now not so logical how it should
Bye
Read ya
MfG
Capt. Kirk
ok do you think if someone can cast spells he is a "mage" or someone can make potions is he then a "druid" or someone can make weapons makes him to a "blacksmith" ??
many think so but does this mean it is right because many players here misuse the abilities to cast spells only to make thier "fighter" chars more deadly or to make easy money with potions.
for exsample you can see them (so called mages) how they train thier magic in non-rpg way (like making many magicfields without a rpg reason or train in the open streets).
i am missing the "warrior" chars (fighting with melee weapons) or the "ranger" char (fighting with bows) or the "peasant" char (perhaps he dont fight much because he dont have much time for it) or the smith (is make many iron stuff and/or gold stuff) and a few other.
why are so many players call thier chars a "mage" or a "druid" ??
it is possible to play the other chars (i was missing yet).
or do all want play only mages and druids also if we get more professions ??? it would be boring (without true fighters, priests, rangers, peasants, smiths, and so on) or ??
i know real "fighter" chars and they hit your real "mage" or "druid" char holding his 2 shields
or i never saw a real "mage" standing in the firstline when they are with other peoples in the spider or worm cave
ps: im very sleepy now sorry perhaps it sounds now not so logical how it should
Bye
Read ya
MfG
Capt. Kirk
2 shield mages
Uh, what am I?
Neither mage, nor druid. Neither fighter nor ranger.
Just a merchant, but maybe more powerful than anyone around here
Hmm, if you are a single druid who can't stand an attack of a two-shielded mage why not join together with some strong mages who will protect you?
There will always be a stronger opponent as you are. And it doesn't matter what equipment he uses. But every kind of fighter, mage or whatever has a weak point. For example: A two shielded mage has no chance against a mage with a staff (the one to focus your opponent). So join together to face the problems.
In my eyes this is no problem which should be regulated by changing the skill problem. It's a thing that should be changed in the player's heads.
I by myself have enough friends who care for me cause I care for them. So I am (hopefully) never in trouble. (And if there are no friends I hire some mercenaries :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:)
Neither mage, nor druid. Neither fighter nor ranger.
Just a merchant, but maybe more powerful than anyone around here
Hmm, if you are a single druid who can't stand an attack of a two-shielded mage why not join together with some strong mages who will protect you?
There will always be a stronger opponent as you are. And it doesn't matter what equipment he uses. But every kind of fighter, mage or whatever has a weak point. For example: A two shielded mage has no chance against a mage with a staff (the one to focus your opponent). So join together to face the problems.
In my eyes this is no problem which should be regulated by changing the skill problem. It's a thing that should be changed in the player's heads.
I by myself have enough friends who care for me cause I care for them. So I am (hopefully) never in trouble. (And if there are no friends I hire some mercenaries :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:)
2 shield mages
And so you people keep saying that a "mage" shoudn't have the combat skills to defend himself so well. What about a druid? Remember that we don't have the difference of mage/fighter now, we only have mage/druid. Why should a "mage" have less fighting skills than a "druid"?
If everything had to be evened out, next thing you know
"will power" will be require to make potions
And mages will be selling their runes
With the job system of the game as it is now, you have to stop thinking that a single "druid" should have a good chance to beat a good "mage" . And i know that's what a lot of you think because you all want to "lower parry" or "no 2 shields" only for mages.
P.S. if a mage is wearing two shields its not that easy for him to hit you with a spell if you are running away unless you decide to move really slowly or predictably.
If everything had to be evened out, next thing you know
"will power" will be require to make potions
And mages will be selling their runes
With the job system of the game as it is now, you have to stop thinking that a single "druid" should have a good chance to beat a good "mage" . And i know that's what a lot of you think because you all want to "lower parry" or "no 2 shields" only for mages.
P.S. if a mage is wearing two shields its not that easy for him to hit you with a spell if you are running away unless you decide to move really slowly or predictably.
-
Captain Kirk
- Posts: 524
- Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:25 am
- Location: Earth
2 shield mages
Hallo
i never said a mage or druid shouldnt have fighting skills but i think needs a mage or druid to kill his opponent with only 1 or 2 hits in melee ??
i think for a real druid it doesnt matter if the real mage is holding 1 or 2 shields and vice versa
the problem is only if fighter chars have maxed out thier spell and mag res abilities and they then hold 2 shields then a normal fighter cant hit him (or very very hardly) but the other will then kill the normal fighter with spells
yes i think too it is a head problem from the players
Bye
Read ya
MfG
Capt. Kirk
i never said a mage or druid shouldnt have fighting skills but i think needs a mage or druid to kill his opponent with only 1 or 2 hits in melee ??
i think for a real druid it doesnt matter if the real mage is holding 1 or 2 shields and vice versa
the problem is only if fighter chars have maxed out thier spell and mag res abilities and they then hold 2 shields then a normal fighter cant hit him (or very very hardly) but the other will then kill the normal fighter with spells
yes i think too it is a head problem from the players
Bye
Read ya
MfG
Capt. Kirk
-
Damien
- Posts: 7845
- Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
- Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
- Contact:
2 shield mages
The whole discussion seems to be a bit nonsense-like.
It is possible to make fighter chars with good fighting attributes and maximum intelligence.
All races can put up 4 attributes to maximum, except for elves (they can max 3 and put one up to about 1/2 of its value).
So every non-elven character can basically become a very good fighter an expert mage, since he only needs intelligence for casting.
The problem is not, that "mages" use two shields, the problem is that there are too many power characters like that. It is not a question of the system, but a question of these players.
Many fighters also use lots of mana potions, while casting spells with low intelligence.
Since we don't have a profession system by now - for such a thing we would need more technical possibilities, for example dialog-options with NPCs, that is much work for the programmers and they are working on it - it is not really necessary to "tune" these things now. Only the two-shield-thing is a bit unlogical, for all people. Just try to use two big (heavy) shields to block hits from only one person, you will see, you will have some problems using both, they are too large and will hinder each others.
But think of another thing : If you cannot use two shields, monsters strengths may be a little hard too. Know some people who are not halflings (with max agl) who can handle the demon with only one shield ?
The demon, even spiders or beholders, are too much for me even WITH two shields. And i have average spellcaster attributes (more int, ess, wil, less str, con,agl).
When the other, unused attributes come in use - perception for distance weapons, for example, and willpower for spell's strength, that will lower the magic effect of most fighter-mages (and of course that of all mages who have under-average will because that attrib was not used before).
The ability of casting powerful spells should depend either on the attributes or on the job system too - but, as i said, there's NO NEED TO CHANGE IT NOW since when the job system comes, much may be changed.
It is possible to make fighter chars with good fighting attributes and maximum intelligence.
All races can put up 4 attributes to maximum, except for elves (they can max 3 and put one up to about 1/2 of its value).
So every non-elven character can basically become a very good fighter an expert mage, since he only needs intelligence for casting.
The problem is not, that "mages" use two shields, the problem is that there are too many power characters like that. It is not a question of the system, but a question of these players.
Many fighters also use lots of mana potions, while casting spells with low intelligence.
Since we don't have a profession system by now - for such a thing we would need more technical possibilities, for example dialog-options with NPCs, that is much work for the programmers and they are working on it - it is not really necessary to "tune" these things now. Only the two-shield-thing is a bit unlogical, for all people. Just try to use two big (heavy) shields to block hits from only one person, you will see, you will have some problems using both, they are too large and will hinder each others.
But think of another thing : If you cannot use two shields, monsters strengths may be a little hard too. Know some people who are not halflings (with max agl) who can handle the demon with only one shield ?
The demon, even spiders or beholders, are too much for me even WITH two shields. And i have average spellcaster attributes (more int, ess, wil, less str, con,agl).
When the other, unused attributes come in use - perception for distance weapons, for example, and willpower for spell's strength, that will lower the magic effect of most fighter-mages (and of course that of all mages who have under-average will because that attrib was not used before).
The ability of casting powerful spells should depend either on the attributes or on the job system too - but, as i said, there's NO NEED TO CHANGE IT NOW since when the job system comes, much may be changed.
-
Kzarak Zhoruch
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2001 12:32 pm
- Location: Bloodskullscave
- Contact:
2 shield mages
This last reply by u Damien comforts me greatly ; )
One day I may find revenge for the crimes commited by these 2shielded mages who attacked me for no reason and everyone else in sight.
Plus their very un-rpgish behaviour is not forgotten either...
I shall begin my hunt at perhaps next buildphase? ; )
No crimes will be forgiven nor forgotten...
Sorry for getting of topic...and thanks for ur last post here damien.
Kzarak Zhoruch, Inquisitor of the Bloodskulls Clan
One day I may find revenge for the crimes commited by these 2shielded mages who attacked me for no reason and everyone else in sight.
Plus their very un-rpgish behaviour is not forgotten either...
I shall begin my hunt at perhaps next buildphase? ; )
No crimes will be forgiven nor forgotten...
Sorry for getting of topic...and thanks for ur last post here damien.
Kzarak Zhoruch, Inquisitor of the Bloodskulls Clan
2 shield mages
Well if you really want to get them why do it alone? just get a group together...