The prison island idea might not be that bad.. But the skillgain there should be disabled, as well as the ability to store any items made there into a depot. We wouldn't want you to powergame there, now would we?
In fact, if there would be anykind of working there, I'd assume that doing it wouldn't profit the prisoners by any way, except perhaps shorten their punishment (The items and resources would go to the government, duh) to give any motivation to do that.
Lyrenzia is bad idea, Grant? It's actually great, but it was the likes of you that ridiculed the idea of exile punishment that caused all the punishments go harsher. The irony. I'm dying to hear your argument, really. It seems that you got over the "forced roleplaying" whining. What now?
If the 'bad' guys don't play fair (or their players), the punishments will
have to go up to make any effect. I don't want to see people going in and out of the jail five times in a week. See, the problem is that we can't make you disappear for good, or lock you away for endless years, because this is as you said, a game. This however, takes away the most important and historic measures used by the law enforcement through the history of mankind.
One option would naturally be mutilating the characters. I.E removing the hands and such, but I don't think that you would be fine with that punishment either (in fact, even I don't fancy the idea.)
The problem is, that you people take your models from the castrated societies of this day, but fail to realise that prison time should be unattractive. 'Evil people' get to do all kinds of neat things, but they must (and should) pay a price for that.
I'll make this clear: You shouldn't get the candy, unless you eat the broccoli too.
I don't trust the players to play their characters like that, you being one of the main reasons for my suspicions, PO Grant. It simply doesn't work. Next day the character stands in middle of trollsbane and casts flames or seeks a fight. Retarted.
Prison Times (Idea)
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Caranthir the great
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Grant Herion
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Keikan Hiru
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If you are mixing up IC and OOC , I would suggest a longer pause from Illarion.
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Caranthir the great
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Instead of long prison times for muderers and other serious crimes. How about excecutions, not permadeath, but they are made helpless and left in the center of town in stalk for a few hours, perhaps the image of their character can remain while logged out, but they can log in, and role play with towns people, offering rewards to people who let them out and such, and after a few hours say about 5 or 6.
After that the next time they log in, they are a ghost, with a huge ammount of exp lost, in all skills, therefore making it less likey that they will commit a crime again, because they were excecuted, and it costs a lot. It also mean people who are in trouble for IC reasons can make a sort of escape, they could bribe town gaurds, who would have the power to put people in the stalks, but only certain criminals, marked by the court, if they get caught in town.
But people could be broken out by friends, there could be a time limit to get out of town, and if your not out before then your automatically put back in, and there can only be one escape attempt per arrest. If the criminal excapes, he should not be able to enter town for ten days, while everyone is looking for them, and if they enter town, they automatically get thrown back in, but after ten days, they are free to enter town, unless one of the player gaurdsme is online.
After that the next time they log in, they are a ghost, with a huge ammount of exp lost, in all skills, therefore making it less likey that they will commit a crime again, because they were excecuted, and it costs a lot. It also mean people who are in trouble for IC reasons can make a sort of escape, they could bribe town gaurds, who would have the power to put people in the stalks, but only certain criminals, marked by the court, if they get caught in town.
But people could be broken out by friends, there could be a time limit to get out of town, and if your not out before then your automatically put back in, and there can only be one escape attempt per arrest. If the criminal excapes, he should not be able to enter town for ten days, while everyone is looking for them, and if they enter town, they automatically get thrown back in, but after ten days, they are free to enter town, unless one of the player gaurdsme is online.
Again the players of rogues, assasins, thieves etc would be punished harshly for their characters actions. There seems to be a culture growing in Illarion that only wants nice characters doing nice things all the time. It's going to get very boring. Will the punishment be the same for a roleplayed death(lots of #me's) as an actual one(cloud)? We are starting to treat good "BAD" characters the same as, or in some cases worse than, game rule breakers.
I like the stocks idea though. To have a thief locked in the stocks open to public ridicule has a good RP feel to it.
I like the idea of the forced labour on an island for no skill gain and the items to be used for the town as well.
The punishment to fit the crime but above all remember this is a Game and needs to be enjoyable, and playable, for both good and Evil. Don't confuse Bad characters with bad role players, they are completely different. Don't punish them the same.
I like the stocks idea though. To have a thief locked in the stocks open to public ridicule has a good RP feel to it.
I like the idea of the forced labour on an island for no skill gain and the items to be used for the town as well.
The punishment to fit the crime but above all remember this is a Game and needs to be enjoyable, and playable, for both good and Evil. Don't confuse Bad characters with bad role players, they are completely different. Don't punish them the same.
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Hagen von Rabenfeld
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:04 pm
Well, i have only one thing i would like to add to this never ending discussion. And this meant towards all the "villains" and "superheroes", who seem to play this game like it wouldnt be an online RPG, but a game like Morrowind or Baldur´s Gate.
Accept the consequences of your roleplay.
And we are playing in a medieval setting.
Yes, we need "villains" to make this game interesting. But we need villains not schoolyard bullies with suicidal tendencies. In medieval times a thief that was really dumb enough to get caught lost a hand. A murderer was thrown into the prison for the rest of his life or got beheaded. A known criminal couldnt enter the town because the guards at the gates had paintings of his face. And a criminal couldnt shake simply off the hands of three guardsmen, like they do with a simple #me.
Illarion is not running low on "evil" characters but evil characters that are not played in a most ridiculous way.
1) They die because they do not accept the town ban, get ressurected and start to insult and fight again. Although they have been dead/injured just a minute ago.
2) They simply walk the streets when no knight/guardsman is online.
3) They ignore every #me to hold them or invent quite a fantasy, when it comes to find a reason, how they can resist arrest, even when 2-4 Chars stand around them and want to hold them.
4) They do not care for their life at all. When one has thrown out a criminal of town, even killed him and a dozen citizen were present and quite happy the bugger got whacked, would you think it a very clever idea, to come back and start to insult those, who have just beat him up.
5) Coming into town on a daily basis is not the most clever thing an outlaw could do aswell. Sometimes i really wonder if sone players roleplay unintelligent Chars/Chars that really do not even feel pain on purpose, or just react like the player wants, not the char, as they fear of loosing face somehow.
6) Using bugs of the game to annoy your fellow players is not the nicest of things. Like logging out in town, directly on the street, if you are a searched criminal, or "hiding" in the "shadow" of buildings and shouting insults around.(i still wonder why you arent permanently banned Fooser)
7) Being beaten out of town and then going to some monster spawn point, "training" a little (after you got killed/injured) and coming back after this and trying to force your way into town, is getting ridiculous after the 5th time or so, dont you think?
This is a medieaval setting. I cannot count the chars that discuss against this or that with modern arguments. Every second char in illarion seems to be a philosopher, his ideas far ahead of the time, hundres of Da´Vincis, whose believes would normally have been invented some periods later. The common medieval char would know his field, his fellow villagers and that he should fear the nobility, as their liege lord could increase the taxes or could wage a war with other nobles. Especially those intelligence 3 warriors should think twice about where they all got their sophisticated ideas from.
9) Having two of his chars in one organisation is very questionable. Hundreds of IC-possibilities, like being bribed, plotting with other members, leaving that organisation, because their goals do not match anylonger or simply arguments are hereby excluded from the RP options. Likewise i think it very unfair way of playing this game, to take advantage of multiple chars. Besides giving items from one to the other is strictly forbidden. And using it as an IC argument, why the char is loyal to the other char, as he gets what he needs from him, is rather questionable aswell. I could also make some chars and let them join the Hagen Fanclub, what would you say?
10) Generally the behaviour of many of a type of chars is simply not mature. Many chars resemble people, who want to proof that they are the strongest, most witty and most fearless guy on the schoolyard. They kill people in town, guardists and the like and wonder why they are banned from town. When demon skeletons appeared in town yesterday you could people being disappointed that there werent more, as they wanted to show off their fighting skills. (IC!) When a char shows fear when the demon cave is mentioned, a comment like "Oh well, the demon cave, i have been there very often" is quite destructive for any RP atmosphere isn´t it? "Its so funny to put some skeletons behind the table of the tavern." "This scorpion is my pet" Some of you out there finally should realize that you do not loose face, if your char is frightened, beaten, humilitated, killed, denied access to the town, insulted or shows any sign of a survival instinct.
11) This is a game. A roleplay game. So play a role which suits the setting. And do not draw this on a PO vs PO level. It is not you running around in TB, it is a char. If you messed up your own char with your actions, make another or be consequent with the drawbacks. RP is not only meant for getting advantages and when it comes to negative effects many simply stop to RP and take it personally. This results in the most ridiculous IG scenes, when people refuse to leave the town although they were killed for being there four times in 10 minutes. For the banned people, if you have IG disadvantages dont whine on the OOC Boards, but solve it IG. What about really building a hideout and ask for a depot, so you can live and make your war without being dependent on the town or Northerot?
Proposals for punishment for IG crimes:
1) Prison. Start with short punishments. Being thrown a second time in prison should double the time. The third time should triple it etc etc Noone takes being thrown into prison seriously it seems. A reason for this could be that the chars who could put someone in prison are not online lately. As i have shown above, noone even thinks about, how uncomfortable the prison time is for his char, when he sits in a comfy chair with the refrigerator a few meters away.
2) Hard labour. Basically prison, but you can work. But there is no depot and you get your tools from the overseer, so the people cannot get rich in prison. But they could sell the ore/coal/gold/whatever they mined to people passing by or the town to fund its buildings, the maintenance, officals (and do not forget the guards that are working for no money at all
)etc etc. As the GMs said there will be a coal mine for non dwarves soon, why not make it a camp for prisoners. Like the proposed prison island. Remember Athens silver mines in history?
3) Take items from the sentenced criminal. Especially that people found guilty of murder still have their weapons, when they come out of prison puzzles me. One could RP this and i often did so, but as shown above people often stop to RP when it comes to disadvantages for one´s char.
4) Mutilation or permanent injuries because of long prison times/malnutrition/being in a cell for days or even weeks. This would effectively reduce either the maximum of their skills or reduce the stats. There could be quests for special remedies or to find the famous healing monk XY etc to regain them. People coming out of prison and being as dangerous as before is also strange to me.
5) Exile. See the prison island suggestion. There should be some ways to work, some huts or the like, but no special ressources like magical knowledge or easy access to coal and ore and hereby to weapons.
6) Public humilation. See above. Public execution for PK orgies. This would definately help against the common amnesia about the history of crimes of a persons, when you make a show out of it.
7) I would not prevent people from being online for an IG crime. If someone breaks the rules of the game, listed on the HP or plays unfair it is an appropriate punishment. But IG problems should be solved IG.
Summary:
Accept the consequences of your role. This is the old problem. You wouldnt need any technical ways of punishing IG crimes, when people would accept the consequences of their IG actions. I have nothing against "evil" chars that simply cooperate with me (the player) when i use one of the above methods. Like giving you their weapons when you search through their belongings, not simply moving away when 2+ people want to escort them somewhere and hold him by a #me, stay infront of the prison when they are brought there and the guard has no OOC mean to teleport them inside and stop to cast when you hold their arms and put a hand on their mouth. And especially do not stand on the middle of the marketplace every day when they are banned from town. And do not simply play the smartass when they are sourrounded by 13 people that want them out of town and openly state that they will rush inside immidiatelly when the people turn around and wonder that they are really killed.
If you didnt want your char to be on the "evil" side then your char made mistakes or you made mistakes in judging an IG situation. Noone gets punished for OOC reasons, only for the actions of his char. So your char has to live with the IG reaction of other chars. If you would have roleplayed appropriately like simply staying out of town when you are banned then you do not have to get a punishment (prison) that is not too entertaining at the moment.
I see many players complaining about being bored in prison. Well did anyone of them ever spend a second to think about how boring it has to be to chase or kill the same criminal two times every day? While he hides in the shadows/waits untill you are offline etc etc etc? I doubt it. But for me personally it is not only that i feel bored by it, but also that this behaviour produce that many absolutely unlogical IG scenes. It is getting so ridiclulous that some very old players leave the game and others do not go online at a time when they know such chars are around usually.
Accept the consequences of your roleplay.
And we are playing in a medieval setting.
Yes, we need "villains" to make this game interesting. But we need villains not schoolyard bullies with suicidal tendencies. In medieval times a thief that was really dumb enough to get caught lost a hand. A murderer was thrown into the prison for the rest of his life or got beheaded. A known criminal couldnt enter the town because the guards at the gates had paintings of his face. And a criminal couldnt shake simply off the hands of three guardsmen, like they do with a simple #me.
Illarion is not running low on "evil" characters but evil characters that are not played in a most ridiculous way.
1) They die because they do not accept the town ban, get ressurected and start to insult and fight again. Although they have been dead/injured just a minute ago.
2) They simply walk the streets when no knight/guardsman is online.
3) They ignore every #me to hold them or invent quite a fantasy, when it comes to find a reason, how they can resist arrest, even when 2-4 Chars stand around them and want to hold them.
4) They do not care for their life at all. When one has thrown out a criminal of town, even killed him and a dozen citizen were present and quite happy the bugger got whacked, would you think it a very clever idea, to come back and start to insult those, who have just beat him up.
5) Coming into town on a daily basis is not the most clever thing an outlaw could do aswell. Sometimes i really wonder if sone players roleplay unintelligent Chars/Chars that really do not even feel pain on purpose, or just react like the player wants, not the char, as they fear of loosing face somehow.
6) Using bugs of the game to annoy your fellow players is not the nicest of things. Like logging out in town, directly on the street, if you are a searched criminal, or "hiding" in the "shadow" of buildings and shouting insults around.(i still wonder why you arent permanently banned Fooser)
7) Being beaten out of town and then going to some monster spawn point, "training" a little (after you got killed/injured) and coming back after this and trying to force your way into town, is getting ridiculous after the 5th time or so, dont you think?
This is a medieaval setting. I cannot count the chars that discuss against this or that with modern arguments. Every second char in illarion seems to be a philosopher, his ideas far ahead of the time, hundres of Da´Vincis, whose believes would normally have been invented some periods later. The common medieval char would know his field, his fellow villagers and that he should fear the nobility, as their liege lord could increase the taxes or could wage a war with other nobles. Especially those intelligence 3 warriors should think twice about where they all got their sophisticated ideas from.9) Having two of his chars in one organisation is very questionable. Hundreds of IC-possibilities, like being bribed, plotting with other members, leaving that organisation, because their goals do not match anylonger or simply arguments are hereby excluded from the RP options. Likewise i think it very unfair way of playing this game, to take advantage of multiple chars. Besides giving items from one to the other is strictly forbidden. And using it as an IC argument, why the char is loyal to the other char, as he gets what he needs from him, is rather questionable aswell. I could also make some chars and let them join the Hagen Fanclub, what would you say?
10) Generally the behaviour of many of a type of chars is simply not mature. Many chars resemble people, who want to proof that they are the strongest, most witty and most fearless guy on the schoolyard. They kill people in town, guardists and the like and wonder why they are banned from town. When demon skeletons appeared in town yesterday you could people being disappointed that there werent more, as they wanted to show off their fighting skills. (IC!) When a char shows fear when the demon cave is mentioned, a comment like "Oh well, the demon cave, i have been there very often" is quite destructive for any RP atmosphere isn´t it? "Its so funny to put some skeletons behind the table of the tavern." "This scorpion is my pet" Some of you out there finally should realize that you do not loose face, if your char is frightened, beaten, humilitated, killed, denied access to the town, insulted or shows any sign of a survival instinct.
11) This is a game. A roleplay game. So play a role which suits the setting. And do not draw this on a PO vs PO level. It is not you running around in TB, it is a char. If you messed up your own char with your actions, make another or be consequent with the drawbacks. RP is not only meant for getting advantages and when it comes to negative effects many simply stop to RP and take it personally. This results in the most ridiculous IG scenes, when people refuse to leave the town although they were killed for being there four times in 10 minutes. For the banned people, if you have IG disadvantages dont whine on the OOC Boards, but solve it IG. What about really building a hideout and ask for a depot, so you can live and make your war without being dependent on the town or Northerot?
Proposals for punishment for IG crimes:
1) Prison. Start with short punishments. Being thrown a second time in prison should double the time. The third time should triple it etc etc Noone takes being thrown into prison seriously it seems. A reason for this could be that the chars who could put someone in prison are not online lately. As i have shown above, noone even thinks about, how uncomfortable the prison time is for his char, when he sits in a comfy chair with the refrigerator a few meters away.
2) Hard labour. Basically prison, but you can work. But there is no depot and you get your tools from the overseer, so the people cannot get rich in prison. But they could sell the ore/coal/gold/whatever they mined to people passing by or the town to fund its buildings, the maintenance, officals (and do not forget the guards that are working for no money at all
)etc etc. As the GMs said there will be a coal mine for non dwarves soon, why not make it a camp for prisoners. Like the proposed prison island. Remember Athens silver mines in history?3) Take items from the sentenced criminal. Especially that people found guilty of murder still have their weapons, when they come out of prison puzzles me. One could RP this and i often did so, but as shown above people often stop to RP when it comes to disadvantages for one´s char.
4) Mutilation or permanent injuries because of long prison times/malnutrition/being in a cell for days or even weeks. This would effectively reduce either the maximum of their skills or reduce the stats. There could be quests for special remedies or to find the famous healing monk XY etc to regain them. People coming out of prison and being as dangerous as before is also strange to me.
5) Exile. See the prison island suggestion. There should be some ways to work, some huts or the like, but no special ressources like magical knowledge or easy access to coal and ore and hereby to weapons.
6) Public humilation. See above. Public execution for PK orgies. This would definately help against the common amnesia about the history of crimes of a persons, when you make a show out of it.
7) I would not prevent people from being online for an IG crime. If someone breaks the rules of the game, listed on the HP or plays unfair it is an appropriate punishment. But IG problems should be solved IG.
Summary:
Accept the consequences of your role. This is the old problem. You wouldnt need any technical ways of punishing IG crimes, when people would accept the consequences of their IG actions. I have nothing against "evil" chars that simply cooperate with me (the player) when i use one of the above methods. Like giving you their weapons when you search through their belongings, not simply moving away when 2+ people want to escort them somewhere and hold him by a #me, stay infront of the prison when they are brought there and the guard has no OOC mean to teleport them inside and stop to cast when you hold their arms and put a hand on their mouth. And especially do not stand on the middle of the marketplace every day when they are banned from town. And do not simply play the smartass when they are sourrounded by 13 people that want them out of town and openly state that they will rush inside immidiatelly when the people turn around and wonder that they are really killed.
If you didnt want your char to be on the "evil" side then your char made mistakes or you made mistakes in judging an IG situation. Noone gets punished for OOC reasons, only for the actions of his char. So your char has to live with the IG reaction of other chars. If you would have roleplayed appropriately like simply staying out of town when you are banned then you do not have to get a punishment (prison) that is not too entertaining at the moment.
I see many players complaining about being bored in prison. Well did anyone of them ever spend a second to think about how boring it has to be to chase or kill the same criminal two times every day? While he hides in the shadows/waits untill you are offline etc etc etc? I doubt it. But for me personally it is not only that i feel bored by it, but also that this behaviour produce that many absolutely unlogical IG scenes. It is getting so ridiclulous that some very old players leave the game and others do not go online at a time when they know such chars are around usually.
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Urii Vandos
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:23 am
- Location: Trollsbane
I tried to post something here a day ago, but I kept getting an error. It seems people have allready gotten to the conclusion that I have, but to get all of my ideas in, I'll run through it quick:
1. Mining prison. Should be in the North Woods. Somewhere out of town, but people can go there and see the prisoners. They could throw old vegetables at them or talk to their buddies, or what have you.
2. The ore they mine is given to the victim and then a certain amount taken off the top and given Lyrenzia's coffers.
3. They're stripped of all items, except those in their depot, and an NPC guard can provide them with hammers. Their mouths are gagged. They cannot cast spells or talk, except for #i and #me actions. If a friend comes by to visit them, they can only answer with nods and such.
4. Prison times are lowered, but if an inappropriate amount of ore is brought out, they're put back in.
5. There should be two ways for the person to escape. One would be to bribe guards, other than the NPC one. The other way would be for someone outside of the cage to kill the NPC guard with spells or arrows. Once the NPC is dead, the gate automatically opens (or maybe they get the key.) If a person escapes, they are still a wanted criminal and more time is added to their sentence.
6. I think they should gain mining skill, for realism, but, on the other hand, they lose alot of skill in all other skills. This would symbolize skill loss from lack of practice.
7. When they leave, they aren't given back the items that were taken from them, but rather, those items are sold and the money goes to Lyrenzia.
In summary: This is less boring than prison, but upon leaving, even if they escape (due to skill loss and loss of items), they are just a shell of the men they were beforehand. By escaping, you have the greater risk of losing those skills again when you are caught a second time. This might even influence folks like Grant to stay in prison even though he could just have a member of the Movement rescue him. It could be, all around, much better than the prison system, but I doubt it would yield less complaints, honestly. In fact, I think there's no solution at all to stop the complaints, in-character and out-of-character, against Lyrenzia, which, overall, is a damn humane system for medieval times.
1. Mining prison. Should be in the North Woods. Somewhere out of town, but people can go there and see the prisoners. They could throw old vegetables at them or talk to their buddies, or what have you.
2. The ore they mine is given to the victim and then a certain amount taken off the top and given Lyrenzia's coffers.
3. They're stripped of all items, except those in their depot, and an NPC guard can provide them with hammers. Their mouths are gagged. They cannot cast spells or talk, except for #i and #me actions. If a friend comes by to visit them, they can only answer with nods and such.
4. Prison times are lowered, but if an inappropriate amount of ore is brought out, they're put back in.
5. There should be two ways for the person to escape. One would be to bribe guards, other than the NPC one. The other way would be for someone outside of the cage to kill the NPC guard with spells or arrows. Once the NPC is dead, the gate automatically opens (or maybe they get the key.) If a person escapes, they are still a wanted criminal and more time is added to their sentence.
6. I think they should gain mining skill, for realism, but, on the other hand, they lose alot of skill in all other skills. This would symbolize skill loss from lack of practice.
7. When they leave, they aren't given back the items that were taken from them, but rather, those items are sold and the money goes to Lyrenzia.
In summary: This is less boring than prison, but upon leaving, even if they escape (due to skill loss and loss of items), they are just a shell of the men they were beforehand. By escaping, you have the greater risk of losing those skills again when you are caught a second time. This might even influence folks like Grant to stay in prison even though he could just have a member of the Movement rescue him. It could be, all around, much better than the prison system, but I doubt it would yield less complaints, honestly. In fact, I think there's no solution at all to stop the complaints, in-character and out-of-character, against Lyrenzia, which, overall, is a damn humane system for medieval times.
Hagen von Rabenfeld seeing as this is a OOC posting area I would have to say your statement the one a little above this post is good .
and it probably showed in how Jhon Sivan has acted .
1st he joind the movement reborn because he saw that they where takeing actions aginst Darlok .
2nd he left the movement after being band from Troll's bane becuase he needed acsses to farmland and without Troll's bane he had none .
3rd he had the Farmers Union his guild be removed from the ally list of the movement becuase of even stircter bans .
4th and curently last he has become a citizen og Lyrenza ( Troll's Bane ) becuase he noticed he realy needs the buisnes that being closer to the town can give .
and every time he was band he didn't enter town unless to seek out the guard to get permision to have accses to town agin .
of corse I am not wrighting this as a deffence of my charicter just as a example that I try to roleplay the ways that Jhon Sivan thinks .
even if at some moments it is not the way I may think .
and it probably showed in how Jhon Sivan has acted .
1st he joind the movement reborn because he saw that they where takeing actions aginst Darlok .
2nd he left the movement after being band from Troll's bane becuase he needed acsses to farmland and without Troll's bane he had none .
3rd he had the Farmers Union his guild be removed from the ally list of the movement becuase of even stircter bans .
4th and curently last he has become a citizen og Lyrenza ( Troll's Bane ) becuase he noticed he realy needs the buisnes that being closer to the town can give .
and every time he was band he didn't enter town unless to seek out the guard to get permision to have accses to town agin .
of corse I am not wrighting this as a deffence of my charicter just as a example that I try to roleplay the ways that Jhon Sivan thinks .
even if at some moments it is not the way I may think .
This is a Game.
It is meant to be Fun
But...SITTING THERE FOR TEN DAMN HOURS BEING BORED OUT OF YOUR DAMN MIND IS NOT FUN!
It makes playing Illarion more of a Chore than something to do for fun! No wonder a lot of the older, good roleplayers are leaving.
The length of Jail in this is NOT FUN!
Powergamers get a FAR less time in prison, should this not be the other way around? Makes it look as if Roleplaying an Law-Breaker is bad, while Powergaming is a lesser crime!
It is meant to be Fun
But...SITTING THERE FOR TEN DAMN HOURS BEING BORED OUT OF YOUR DAMN MIND IS NOT FUN!
It makes playing Illarion more of a Chore than something to do for fun! No wonder a lot of the older, good roleplayers are leaving.
The length of Jail in this is NOT FUN!
Powergamers get a FAR less time in prison, should this not be the other way around? Makes it look as if Roleplaying an Law-Breaker is bad, while Powergaming is a lesser crime!
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Nartak Ironmaster
- Posts: 673
- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:32 pm
If you powergame, you get jailed by a GM,Rynt wrote:Powergamers get a FAR less time in prison, should this not be the other way around? Makes it look as if Roleplaying an Law-Breaker is bad, while Powergaming is a lesser crime!
If you break an ingame rule, you get jailed by players, not by GMs. It's the community that jails for 10 hours, not the GMs.
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Caranthir the great
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:06 pm
- Contact:
This is roleplaying game. Read Hagen's post.This is a Game.
As long as majority of the 'baddies' play the way they do at the moment, I don't see why the punishments should be lowered.
How the hell are these two related? AFAIK, most of the people's characters who are leaving haven't been in jail.No wonder a lot of the older, good roleplayers are leaving.
Way confuse things. LYRENZIA is IN-GAME ORGANISATION! THESE TWO ARE NOT RELATED. If the gamemasters choose to jail someone as a warning for short period of time, that's their decision. Not Lyrenzia's.Makes it look as if Roleplaying an Law-Breaker is bad, while Powergaming is a lesser crime!
We had lighter punishments, but those were simply ignored.
(Nartak was too fast
)See, the bad guys must get their shit together. If you ask me, the worst played characters are without flaw the 'bad' ones. Pick up a few hints from the post that Hagen made. You play unfair, it's going to kick you in the arse some later date. Take that for granted.
The reason that, in some cases, the bad characters are the worst played is that it is very hard to do. You have to use a lot more imagination to play a bad character than a good one. It also relies on the RP skill of the other players a lot more.
Again both you and Hagen are confusing bad roleplayers with characters that roleplay bad characters. The examples you give are not of good roleplayers but bad ones. The punishment should fit the crime. If you are punishing someone for being a thief then that's fine. If you are punishing someone for badly roleplaying a thief then that is a different crime. A PK orgy is a banning offence as it has no justification. A character who roleplays killing many people for a reason, hopefully without actually making it a cloudy day, is completely different.
Again both you and Hagen are confusing bad roleplayers with characters that roleplay bad characters. The examples you give are not of good roleplayers but bad ones. The punishment should fit the crime. If you are punishing someone for being a thief then that's fine. If you are punishing someone for badly roleplaying a thief then that is a different crime. A PK orgy is a banning offence as it has no justification. A character who roleplays killing many people for a reason, hopefully without actually making it a cloudy day, is completely different.
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Hagen von Rabenfeld
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I do not see that im confusing something. In fact, if you would ask some players of "evil" chars like Nerevar, Darlok, Zerbus, the horde guys, the talking ogres etc you would see that i really respect people that play "evil" roles, which is much more complicated. But i want real enemies, not a turnaround that tries to kill you one day and then grovels in front of your feet the next day, after he noticed there are no depots outside the town or uses questionable means to "roleplay" a conflict. Generally i rely on "evil" chars, otherwise my char wouldnt have a job after all. But what i spoke of in the first paragraph of my post were negative examples. What i wanted to proof is that we do not need more "evil" chars but some that arent roleplayed in such a unrealistic an ridiculous way.I have nothing against "evil" chars that simply cooperate with me (the player) when i use one of the above methods.
Of course, as my point was, that many players, who play "evil" chars need to improve their roleplay.The examples you give are not of good roleplayers but bad ones.
About the proposals of IG crimes. In fact we wouldnt need any technical means to punish IG crimes. A good roleplayer would "give" me his weapons, when my char searches him for hidden weapons and he would stand in front of the prison althought i cannot teleport him indoors. A good roleplayer wouldnt enter the town, when no guard is online. My proposals follow an IG logic and have nothing to do with banning reasons. I didnt express myself clear enough about the PK orgies. I should have written mass murder not PK. PK is a OOC offense not IG. I meant mass murder, like Darlok and his pet worms on the marketplace, which had a IG reason-blackmailing the town-and so isnt PK but IG-mass murder. Besides i would think it interesting so "solve" a ban reason like PK by roleplay, which would be public execution. But you would need a GM to go online with the char of the banned player, to let him being executed. Someone who PKs would most likely log out i guess.
Generaly such punishments as mutilation, exile on another island, being stripped of weapons and other belongings, hard labour, public humilation and so on wouldnt bother a good roleplayer. Because they follow two principles, first making the punishment more interesting (hard labour instead of just sitting in jail, humilation, quest for the famous healing monk XY to heal a mutilation etc) to roleplay the drawbacks of a bad role and second should be realistic.
1) Playing unfair is an OOC offense, from my point of view and should be solved by the GMs not any IG institution. (1st paragraph of the last post mostly)
2) Punishment for IG crimes should get more interesting to roleplay and more realistic, considering the medieval scenario, we play in.
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Derinoar Fallvictor
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I agree, i don't think if your found breaking a crime your char. should get off free with no punshment, But the ten hour of siting infornt of your screen doing NOTHING isn't a punishment to the character it's a punishment to the player......trust me that jail is boring.Generaly such punishments as mutilation, exile on another island, being stripped of weapons and other belongings, hard labour, public humilation and so on wouldnt bother a good roleplayer. Because they follow two principles, first making the punishment more interestinginstead of just sitting in jail
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Nilo
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A couple of things.
First of all, you have to do something real bad to get 10 hours prison time.
SEcond of all, I dont think that you should even go to jail for stealing, or going around murdering people, UNDER THE CONDITION THAT YOU ROLE PLAY IT WELL. If you just go around and kill people for no reason at all all the time, you should just be deleted, skipping the jail process. But, if you were to have a big thing going, where everyone has to stay off the streets in fear of the "murderer/ and or theif," then you shouldnt deserve jail time.
I see fit that if you werent roleplaying well, then, yes, you should get... maybe.... 40 minutes jail time. Along with an email telling you what you are doing isnt rp.
Theft is, in my opinion, a career, much like carpentry or peasantry. No, you dont have a skill for that... (thatd be cool if you did..) but you shouldnt be put in jail just for stealing.
First of all, you have to do something real bad to get 10 hours prison time.
SEcond of all, I dont think that you should even go to jail for stealing, or going around murdering people, UNDER THE CONDITION THAT YOU ROLE PLAY IT WELL. If you just go around and kill people for no reason at all all the time, you should just be deleted, skipping the jail process. But, if you were to have a big thing going, where everyone has to stay off the streets in fear of the "murderer/ and or theif," then you shouldnt deserve jail time.
I see fit that if you werent roleplaying well, then, yes, you should get... maybe.... 40 minutes jail time. Along with an email telling you what you are doing isnt rp.
Theft is, in my opinion, a career, much like carpentry or peasantry. No, you dont have a skill for that... (thatd be cool if you did..) but you shouldnt be put in jail just for stealing.
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Brendan Mason
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Sorry Hagen, it looks like I misunderstood your point the first time.
I totally agree with what you say here:
I would put a little caveat in there about things not getting too realistic. Otherwise we might as well just jump to the single death and that's it realism.
I totally agree with what you say here:
And also:Generaly such punishments as mutilation, exile on another island, being stripped of weapons and other belongings, hard labour, public humilation and so on wouldnt bother a good roleplayer. Because they follow two principles, first making the punishment more interesting (hard labour instead of just sitting in jail, humilation, quest for the famous healing monk XY to heal a mutilation etc) to roleplay the drawbacks of a bad role and second should be realistic.
All I'm really against is long jail time with nothing to RP and nothing to do. 10hrs of moaning to yourself chained to a wall is not good for anyone. It's not as if many people pass that way.2) Punishment for IG crimes should get more interesting to roleplay and more realistic, considering the medieval scenario, we play in.
I would put a little caveat in there about things not getting too realistic. Otherwise we might as well just jump to the single death and that's it realism.
Yes, 10 hrs of jail time punishes the player, not the charcter.
Alright, then locking away your character forever will totally punish the character, and you will never have to play your character again nor sit for 10hrs. How would you feel about that?
The emphasized text of Hagen says it all.
Accept the consequences of your roleplaying.
Yes you had fun playing your criminal character. Getting caught is part of the roleplay too. But now your criminal is caught and in medieval times, he'd be either dead or jailed forever. His life is as good as over, so forget that character and go play another character. It was fun while it lasted, but now it's time to have fun with other characters.
Do I really agree to this? No. But since you wanted "punish the character" and "I don't want to sit 10hrs doing nothing", then there's your solution.
But here's another one.... don't do the time in one whole 10 hour sitting. Nobody forces you to take a punishment like that. Do 5 minutes a day or something, and play another character meanwhile to have fun. Yes, this would take months, and wouldn't that even be more realistic from the characters' point of view instead of him walking the streets again 1 day later?
Alright, then locking away your character forever will totally punish the character, and you will never have to play your character again nor sit for 10hrs. How would you feel about that?
The emphasized text of Hagen says it all.
Accept the consequences of your roleplaying.
Yes you had fun playing your criminal character. Getting caught is part of the roleplay too. But now your criminal is caught and in medieval times, he'd be either dead or jailed forever. His life is as good as over, so forget that character and go play another character. It was fun while it lasted, but now it's time to have fun with other characters.
Do I really agree to this? No. But since you wanted "punish the character" and "I don't want to sit 10hrs doing nothing", then there's your solution.
But here's another one.... don't do the time in one whole 10 hour sitting. Nobody forces you to take a punishment like that. Do 5 minutes a day or something, and play another character meanwhile to have fun. Yes, this would take months, and wouldn't that even be more realistic from the characters' point of view instead of him walking the streets again 1 day later?
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Derinoar Fallvictor
- Posts: 256
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Albernon, I'll take my punshment but do you relize that siting alone in jail for 10 hours does nothing for your role play you just sit there......doing #me wishes he was out of here....for ten hours, now this idea of having to do work while your in pirson or something of that sort sounds a lot better, it would make it like not only do you get thrown away on a isle but you have to do work the whole time as well, which would be kinda fun really, and could lead to a lot of jail role play like one of the in mates on the ilse is know as the badest and no one messes with him, or the new guy gets beat up while the guards arn't looking and that kind of thing.
Yes, sitting for 10 hours in jail does nothing for the roleplay of a character whose life is probably suppose to be over anyways. So don't sit for 10 hours then. Let him die or rot away forever like he is supposed to. It's a much more realistic punishment for your character, and you don't have to waste time sitting.
Like I said, I don't actually support that idea, but if you say "punish the character" and "I don't want to sit 10hrs doing nothing", then there's your solution.
I don't mind the idea of some kind of work in prison, but I just don't think they have the technical capabilities right now...
Like I said, I don't actually support that idea, but if you say "punish the character" and "I don't want to sit 10hrs doing nothing", then there's your solution.
I don't mind the idea of some kind of work in prison, but I just don't think they have the technical capabilities right now...
And don't forget, there is also the possibility to pay ingots instead of prison time. No criminal has to serve the jailtime. He can pay money instead.
The problem of the time (and there never was more than 10 hours) are the different internet connections. For one with a flat rate, 10h are nothing, for one with minute paying, 10h are much. But there is no possibility to differ these two cases. So a time has to be found, which is good for both.
If the goal of a prisoner is only to get out as fast as possible, letting the char stand online for 10h without any RP actions, it is also bad RP.
Maybe, let reduce the maximum of hours to three or less hours ...
But what will happen than? The evil chars get out and start as nothing has happened. Only a short pause in their evil doings, nothing more ... but this wouldn't be good RP.
As Hagen and others allready said, a criminal in mediaval times has to serve mostly long, has no fair courts, has mostly bad and not sufficent thigs to eat, worst hygeniec surroundings, rats and other beasts in the jails, no light in dark cells .... someone, coming out there, if he really managed to, wouldn't be the same hero as before ...
mostly, the criminals were ahnged up or burned or ... other kind of death.
Compared with this, the court and jail system of Lyrenzia is more than human, not really fitting in a medival surrounding.
To have some realism, jailing for murdery should take more than one year ... but this is a game and should make fun, so there can't be such a realistic punishment.
If it is roleplayed proper, being in jail, I have nothing against one or two hours ... but if the char than is casting and murdering again after being out in the same way as before as nothing has happened ... this is ridiculous.
The real problem in Illarion is, that there is no time to develop a char and his actions ... all has to be made within hours and minutes ...
if you are wounded, why not play three days or a week an injured person ... (but no, after being at the cross, he is healthy and strong enough)
if you are in jail for weeks, why not play a weak man for weeks until he has reached his old strengh ... (but no, after being outside, he starts again to be superhero)
if you fall in love with someone, why not play this for weeks (but no, after one day, there has to be a marriage and after two days, it has ended) ...
if you want to make a guild, why not take time to find friends with the same intentions, prepare it .... (but no, one post it starts, three days later, noone answers, it is finished)
... ... ... many more examples
The problem of the time (and there never was more than 10 hours) are the different internet connections. For one with a flat rate, 10h are nothing, for one with minute paying, 10h are much. But there is no possibility to differ these two cases. So a time has to be found, which is good for both.
If the goal of a prisoner is only to get out as fast as possible, letting the char stand online for 10h without any RP actions, it is also bad RP.
Maybe, let reduce the maximum of hours to three or less hours ...
But what will happen than? The evil chars get out and start as nothing has happened. Only a short pause in their evil doings, nothing more ... but this wouldn't be good RP.
As Hagen and others allready said, a criminal in mediaval times has to serve mostly long, has no fair courts, has mostly bad and not sufficent thigs to eat, worst hygeniec surroundings, rats and other beasts in the jails, no light in dark cells .... someone, coming out there, if he really managed to, wouldn't be the same hero as before ...
mostly, the criminals were ahnged up or burned or ... other kind of death.
Compared with this, the court and jail system of Lyrenzia is more than human, not really fitting in a medival surrounding.
To have some realism, jailing for murdery should take more than one year ... but this is a game and should make fun, so there can't be such a realistic punishment.
If it is roleplayed proper, being in jail, I have nothing against one or two hours ... but if the char than is casting and murdering again after being out in the same way as before as nothing has happened ... this is ridiculous.
The real problem in Illarion is, that there is no time to develop a char and his actions ... all has to be made within hours and minutes ...
if you are wounded, why not play three days or a week an injured person ... (but no, after being at the cross, he is healthy and strong enough)
if you are in jail for weeks, why not play a weak man for weeks until he has reached his old strengh ... (but no, after being outside, he starts again to be superhero)
if you fall in love with someone, why not play this for weeks (but no, after one day, there has to be a marriage and after two days, it has ended) ...
if you want to make a guild, why not take time to find friends with the same intentions, prepare it .... (but no, one post it starts, three days later, noone answers, it is finished)
... ... ... many more examples
Why does realism have to punish only the evil players? If you want proper medieval realism let's have plagues that wipe out 80% of the population, good and bad. Let's have diseases that prevent you from earning your living. Lets have death that ends a character forever, no resurect. You want evil players to give up their characters after getting caught? Fine, as long as good players give up their characters after being slain once.
10 hrs at 5 minutes per day? That's 120 days. Not all characters have a second character.
If an evil player comes out of jail and carries on as if nothing has happened then thats BAD ROLE PLAYING. Don't punish good roleplayers for the crime of bad roleplaying.
Just because there is not the technical ability to build a prison island doesn't mean the jail time should be so long. The two are unrelated.
Pay to get out? Perhaps, except a lot of people use their time to roleplay and so don't have great wealth.
My argument is not about having to pay for being in jail for 10 hrs, though it's a good one. My argument is that, because it's such a remote area and there is nothing to do, Role Playing for 10hrs is impossible and therefore against the spirit of the game.
10 hrs at 5 minutes per day? That's 120 days. Not all characters have a second character.
If an evil player comes out of jail and carries on as if nothing has happened then thats BAD ROLE PLAYING. Don't punish good roleplayers for the crime of bad roleplaying.
Just because there is not the technical ability to build a prison island doesn't mean the jail time should be so long. The two are unrelated.
Pay to get out? Perhaps, except a lot of people use their time to roleplay and so don't have great wealth.
My argument is not about having to pay for being in jail for 10 hrs, though it's a good one. My argument is that, because it's such a remote area and there is nothing to do, Role Playing for 10hrs is impossible and therefore against the spirit of the game.
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Caranthir the great
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Pardon? I am confusing something here?Algoran wrote:Why does realism have to punish only the evil players? You want evil players to give up their characters after getting caught? Fine, as long as good players give up their characters after being slain once.
If an evil player comes out of jail and carries on as if nothing has happened then thats BAD ROLE PLAYING. Don't punish good roleplayers for the crime of bad roleplaying.
At the moment I think the sentences are a bit harsh and the only options are to pay your way out or to sit the time. Not everyone might have the money to do this. I would be content if people could convert one online hour of online jail time into one day of offline jail time.
This way if you dont want to sit the prison time you just can't play that character for ten days (which I believe is a good long time as its over a week). If I was in prison now I'd just log in for however many hours a day and watch tv at the same time and would probably be out in 2 or 3 days. Given the choice I would do the offline time and miss 10 days.
This way if you dont want to sit the prison time you just can't play that character for ten days (which I believe is a good long time as its over a week). If I was in prison now I'd just log in for however many hours a day and watch tv at the same time and would probably be out in 2 or 3 days. Given the choice I would do the offline time and miss 10 days.
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Bloodhearte
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I agree that the prison times may be a bit too excessive.
Might I suggest we find other alternative forms of punishment for criminals, rather than jail time? (Especially if they're in-game criminals, not merely server rule breakers)
The developers meant to have this game where it would be possible to play and have fun with for about an hour every so often, whenever you have free time. Remember, you don't have to stay on for large amounts of time; in fact, it's discouraged.
Might I suggest we find other alternative forms of punishment for criminals, rather than jail time? (Especially if they're in-game criminals, not merely server rule breakers)
The developers meant to have this game where it would be possible to play and have fun with for about an hour every so often, whenever you have free time. Remember, you don't have to stay on for large amounts of time; in fact, it's discouraged.
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Adano Eles
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Maybe they are too excessive, and maybe there could be found alternate ways of punishment. But remember that this is still an ingame matter, so get into contact with Lyrenzia to discus this. We can bring the greatest proposals here, ingame they wouldn't be worth anything.
But I see the major problem with the solution as it is now in the lack of roleplaying possibilities during prison time. And I'm not talking about doing work and such, but the fact that you are alone within those four walls most of the time. If several players could organise to serve their time together, and if some outsiders would try to get into contact with the prisoners some new interesting roleplaying possibilities could arise.
But I see the major problem with the solution as it is now in the lack of roleplaying possibilities during prison time. And I'm not talking about doing work and such, but the fact that you are alone within those four walls most of the time. If several players could organise to serve their time together, and if some outsiders would try to get into contact with the prisoners some new interesting roleplaying possibilities could arise.
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Galim
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perhaps te prison is too far away. that is all. i think a prison in town, a building for the guards, where is an jail inside, would be much better. the prisoner could have a window with grattings to the street. he could walk around in his jail, and hear what happenes outside. he could speak with the ones who walks across the jail
and perhaps a guard is sometimes at the guardbuilding too and the prisoner can speak with him. that would be fun for the players. of course as long as the prisoners are not able to use weapons and especially magic. and a prisoner could do work too. perhaps it would be possible to give them an amount of wood, ore something else. they could do easy items out of it, and give it the guards. and they could sell them. the money could be used for repairs of damage the prisoner have done or to build up the town or the guard.
i like that idea, really
and perhaps a guard is sometimes at the guardbuilding too and the prisoner can speak with him. that would be fun for the players. of course as long as the prisoners are not able to use weapons and especially magic. and a prisoner could do work too. perhaps it would be possible to give them an amount of wood, ore something else. they could do easy items out of it, and give it the guards. and they could sell them. the money could be used for repairs of damage the prisoner have done or to build up the town or the guard.
i like that idea, really