Levels? - ...

Sir Draken · Post by **Sir Draken** » Wed May 16, 2001 4:14 pm

Illarion is a rpg, but so are baldurs gate, tibia, etc. All the other games have levels and i think that is one of the funnest parts. What will happen when almost every person who plays now, has max skills? the game will get boring! It needs something to work towards...right now all there is is training skills and a small bit of rping. There is really no point of even hunting anymore because you just train to get skills. And dont try to say fighting training isnt rping and we shouldnt do it, cuz even in rl, people used to practise sword fighting with others. Like fencing. I think that there should be a vote or something because so far, 80% of the people i know agree there should be lvls. If there isnt, the game will fall apart once everyone started reaching max skills. Sure, there are quests but even thos dont come often enough to make the game stay fun.
...just a thought and i hope someone takes this into consideration...

-Minsc

Antarion · Post by **Antarion** » Wed May 16, 2001 6:50 pm

If you look at WHAT RPG-systems use levels, you get your answers. AD&D, D&D, RoleMaster, etc.
These are all systems of the first and second generations. In newer systems you won´t find levels anymore, because of the hinderance of ROLE-playing. The most GOOD systems are skill-based.
The older systems used levels, cause of their martial attitude. Fighting was one of the major parts there. Look at BG: Most missions end with killing an enemy. Even in the pen-and-paper version of AD&D, most adventures have only ONE solution: KILL THE EVIL ARCHENEMY!
But in my opinion, good Role Playing is more than just killing all evil. Chars with real unique features and attitudes give more fun, than the best fight. And the best enemies are the ones, you don´t even recognize or ever meet face to face.
If you want to see some REALLY good systems, look at the pages of Chaosium Inc. (Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu). They may not be so popular, but they´ve got more good ideas in them, than the whole AD&D-stuff.
Even D&D uses their background material now in the D20-line (Dragon Lords of Melniboné).

http://www.chaosium.com

Just to make that clear: I don´t want everbody to play the game like I do. I just want them to look out over the rim of their teacup. There´s more out there than AD&D and Diablo.

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Wed May 16, 2001 7:12 pm

There aren't any levels in Illarion intentionaly.
Imagine you are level 50. You have killed daemons for whole three days. You have earned 5 Million experience points these days. Now you find an insect (weakest monster), kill it and receive ONE experience point. SUDDENLY! Your are a better blacksmith, can carry more and have the double amount of mana than before.
In Illarion you get better in fighting BY fighting, better in smithing BY smithing. And it is not in a way that you don't learn anything for 2 days and then suddenly have the double skill than before.
I believe this is the better system. If 80% of the players won't play with this system, there are some links to other games in the link section.

Sir Draken · Post by **Sir Draken** » Wed May 16, 2001 7:14 pm

Ya but this is a online rpg which will get boring if there are no goals when you have maxed skills. The object is to get better and better but you cant once your maxed. BG has levels which are hard to accolplish. even if the levels in this were hard, it would still be a goal.

Sir Draken · Post by **Sir Draken** » Wed May 16, 2001 7:18 pm

The levels shouldnt be that easy. it should just increase your max hp and your max mana. Also everyone trys so hard on roleplaying while they're carrying around literally TONS of equipment. I think there should be capacity that is also increased by level. What happens when most people have maxed skills in everything which wont be that hard right now?

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Thu May 17, 2001 10:58 pm

AHRGH !!!
If you had only read Antarion's post closely, or visited the link, and read stuff there...
There are tons of rpg systems that NEED no levels anymore. The only thing you mean, is the experience point system.
But Illarion tries something different : The GOAL is to play WITHOUT experience points. The skills rising by their training, by the things you did, like it works in real live.
I have played and game-mastered many different pen&paper systems. I started to make an own system ( but have not enough time to continue ). I experimented with different base system types. And i ensure you, level systems do have some fun aspects, but non-level systems don't lack one of them. Did you ever play Kult, Vampire, Call of Chtulhu, fading suns or what the hell other level-less games ?

Sir Draken · Post by **Sir Draken** » Fri May 18, 2001 12:41 am

YIKES!
*hides*
calm down Damien...*g*
Im just saying that when everyone is maximum skills, there will be no power difference and power difference is one of the funnest parts of the games. Most games without levels arent online. If there arent levels there should be harder monsters with different items every time you kill them and some items could be legendary with special abilities.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Fri May 18, 2001 2:14 pm

That is totally true.
Fights in illarion don't last long enough. Monsters do too much damage, and too quick damage. Spiders for example, and beholders. Other monsters are very weak.Even if you are a very trained fighter, and put down one of two shields, you will die quite fast.
But this system is developing. Just give it a bit time !

(Edited by Damien at 4:26 pm on May 20, 2001)

Antarion · Post by **Antarion** » Fri May 18, 2001 4:53 pm

Thx, Damien. At least SOMEBODY that knows other systems than the mainstream.
From my experience, the exp. point system leads mostly to players trying to get as much points as possible, even in pen and paper systems. And it depends on the gamemaster to keep them in order.
In an online game there´re no gamemasters that do this. So some players will try to kill more monsters or do more things that give EPs.
Learning by doing has proven the most effective system to handle this. But skills should be used with sense, not just to raise the skill.

Sir Draken · Post by **Sir Draken** » Fri May 18, 2001 11:28 pm

Yes, but nobody has answered one thing yet, what will happen when all the currently playing players have maxed in all skills?

Raziel · Post by **Raziel** » Sat May 19, 2001 12:03 am

you people are talking about levels i think it would be a good idea however bror you do not. one solution would be that levels only increase your hp and mana and everthing else needs to be trained. Or if you don't want it to be like that you should have it that it takes almost a months worth of playing to max a skill i have played for like a month and all my skills are maxed. And even if you do change it what about the people that have maxed the skills out already i know if you changed it and busted me down to newbie stats i would say F*ck this game i'm gone. Levels would give people the chance to build there mana and HP. I know i would like to so i can get hit more without being killed. And my magic drops to damn fast i would like to earn more mana so i can use more magic. You people want to make this a total Role Playing Game, but to do that you have to give up a little of what you don't want. That is the only way you will draw more people and make this a better game. I mean most of my skills are maxed and now i have nothing to do. So i'm like done with the game until the next build. Well that is what i have to say. Peace out

rain · Post by **rain** » Sat May 19, 2001 4:03 am

ok i totaly agree with raz i am liquid dragon on the game and rain is my druid but LD is a elf and it took a while to build my stats up and that was fun i had a lot of fun doing that but then a lizard pk came and killed me and raz so we made lizards also to kill them back b/c we had no chance what so ever to kill them with our elfs so with the lizards that we made i know that my lizard almost maxed out on everythign in less then a week my parry was high, concussion, slashing. i had no puncture so i had Serenity help me with that and that go maxed in under 10 min but then someone else came and killed me so i was training my puncture with a needle and scissors and then someone walked up and killed me again my speakers a messed up so i have no clue when somone is hitting me if it takes one or to hits and if i am not looking and i can run b/c of the damn lagging in the game witch there is a lot lately and that is a bitch i die and then now my skills have droped alot when u die u stats should drop but u should lose items there is a game rune scape and in that game from what raz has told me when u die u lose ur items but ur best 3 stay ur skills dont drop but ur items deplete. unlike raz i will stay and play for a while but not hardcore like i did wheni started i used to be on for like 4 hours a day but not so much now i wil continue to post onthe board and check everything but i am really waiting for the next post.

On another note there are 4 more runes somewhere for magic are they in the game yet or do they have to be added and what are the vases on the library for do they surve for anything and when is the next build plz tell me and us so we know thanks

later

Trilaman · Post by **Trilaman** » Sat May 19, 2001 9:34 pm

Hi

If I may try to translate

I think you're talking at cross-purposes...

As I understand this topic, not the levels themselves are the problem. The problem however is, that you can max your skills in a rather short time. The problem would not be solved if there were levels, but a max level existed that could be reached in the same time. You get my point? The solution could be found without levels, by making it much harder to max a skill and (I find this very important) impossible to max ALL skills.

I don't want to say that's the only or even a very good solution....

I myself, for example, play the game for about a month now and I don't have ONE skill maxed. (OK, could be that carpentry is near max

) Most of them are rather mid-range and some lower. What I want to say is, that you don't have to train and max you're skill. (The only reason I could think of is fighting other players and I don't like to do so.)

But remember the stadium of the developement, too...
I think, when more skills are implemented, and I think many more will come, there will be more work for you restless guys

. And if there is some fine-adjustment left to be done, who would be surprised?

Trilaman the Merchant

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Sun May 20, 2001 4:06 pm

btw: People told me often, that their skills were maxed. When I checked them, none of them was maxed in any skill.
No, I won't go and check it for all you powergamers out there

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sun May 20, 2001 4:37 pm

With "maxxed" most people mean they don't rise anymore. I found out some skill don't rise anymore or do it very slow when they reach a certain level. So, to really "max" even a simple skill takes a lot of time.
Pethaps it will be necessary (to provide powergaming) to make it impossible to learn from people, only from monsters.

Another idea : The fihting skills don't rise IN the fight, but only when the enemy has died. And only a maximum skill rise per monster per one fiht is possible, and only if the monster is a threat to the fighter (skill and strength of fighter compared to the skill and strength of monster. The fight raises skills if the monster had he chance to hit the fighter, and the fighter had the chance to hit the monster. The only-learn-when-hurt-thing must be taken out for this too.).
So to increase ones skill, one has to kill the right monsters. That would, along with a general lowering of all fighting skills, provide powergaming once and for all.
That would surely take out the aspect of training, yes. But that aspect is not really needed. And it would make a criminal or guilt system easier. One surely can still "play" training.

(Edited by Damien at 4:40 pm on May 20, 2001)

Antarion · Post by **Antarion** » Sun May 20, 2001 5:23 pm

I can think of two possible solutions for that problem:

1. You only learn from mistakes. If you succesfully hit an opponent, you don´t learn anything. If you cast a spell succesfully, you don´t learn a thing. But if you miscast or don´t hit, you learn. This would give newbies a quicker learning-pace, but at a certain skill-level, you have to find some VERY good teachers, to raise your skill higher. The same for non-fighting skills. At a certain point, your progress is slowed down considerably.

2. Professions. If you are a mage, your fighting-skills can´t be raised above a certain skill-level, and vice versa for fighters. Perhaps halve the possible skill for opposing groups of professions, and give the semi-classes a 3/4 amount.

Maybe a combination of these could be astablished, so nobody would get ALL skills maxed. This would keep the game in balance, and make it more interesting.

One last word though about races: If there´s no balance between the races, the powergamers will just make chars from a different race. At the moment, lizards seem to be the best choice for PKs. And a lizard with a dagger can kill almost everyone - a bit unreal, isn´t it?

Dax · Post by **Dax** » Sun May 20, 2001 10:04 pm

Greetings ladies and gentleman,

I tired of reading the same things over and over and so I skipped half the posts to write this.

Many good opinions and one of the larger concerns is players not having goals.

Presently it appears Illarion is ironing out it's system and world. Once this is refined alittle better it can begin to add more things that will end in goals.

Secondly as far as the skills..

Bror, perhaps skills will not have a limit.

Has anyone considered this? Simply make a very high ceiling to skills and have the raise slower and slower as they go up. eventually it will be where you spend a week strait on a skill only to get it up a notch, but in the end there is little limit and max skills will be something that can not be reached in a week, even a month.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sun May 20, 2001 10:28 pm

Yep.
That may help much.

Sir Draken · Post by **Sir Draken** » Mon May 21, 2001 2:22 am

Maybe, if skills had no limit and were a bit easier to get to the end of the scroll, but did not count for as much, then, once you get to the end, a number appears beside the skills like "slashing weapons:1" then the bar underneath. every time you get to the end, you increase one number...heh...just a thought

rain · Post by **rain** » Mon May 21, 2001 3:20 pm

ok as i was reading down the replys i was thinking the same thing about the numbering thing at the end but then again that is a level if u think about it and they dont want that but they already have little levels in the game like when u black smith when u start out u can make stuff and then after u train some u can make all so that is level one and level 2 what i think should happen i know NO ONE WOULD LIKE THIS but everyone starts over to make it fare but hear me out on this the game is reset and the skills go like this blacksmithing there are more things to make and when u go so far u get to make some more see after u can do blacksmithing now when u get fire sword and u dong piss anyone off and dont die what is the point in spending time training it when there is nothing else to gain from it u know but if they went up slower and there was more things to make it would be better and on another note BROR WHEN DO U THINK THE NEW BUILD IS COMING AND ARE THE OTHER 4 MAGIC SPELLS OUT THERE YET JUST A SIMPLE YES OR NO FOR THE MAGIC SPELLS WOULD BE NICE and yes i do agree that i do not mean max out when i say maxed but my parry couldnt go any higher and then one day i was training puncture with scissors and a needle and some other lizard came and killed me and i forgot to put my shield and sword on so he killed me again and then i did and he still killed me so i have to train again but i have no reson to train the only thing i can train for skill is distance and magic and like lore glassblowing OOOHHHH glass blowing what is the glassfor just the silender of glass what does it do? the oil lamp what does it do? what are the vases for on the library do they do anything? if they do nothing then why are they there just to make us aske questions plz tell me when the build is coming and if the 4 other spells are out there yet thanks

Dax · Post by **Dax** » Mon May 21, 2001 5:07 pm

I haven't played Illarion in a long while.

I don't plan on Playing Illarion until a build or some changes have happened. Im not mad or anything, I simply don't wish to be burned out on this game before it gets better!

Anyhow.. Restarting all characters would not only be interesting it would be good. They would have to help eachother out and would create a good atmosphere..

However I think to keep people sane and not have to restart everyones character 2 or 3 times.. this should be done when adding a new skill system "and hopefully making druids have ressurect potions and get rid of mes pen ressurect and maybe even mes pen

but mes pen not bad for mages if not very powerful.

So unless you make big changes Bror it doesn't make sense to restart characters.

Also how about some puncture weapons? I had trained slash and concusion and wanted to train puncture but I saw no rhyme or reason for it. There are simply no puncture weapons available.

Wouldn't puncture hurt plate more than it would chain?

Wouldn't splint or scale mail be great armor against both? I think scale is great against puncture concusion and slashing so perhaps it will be very good and expensive or hard to make.

Something offbeat..

I heard someone mention about blacksmithing and skill "levels"

well .. it is good to be able to make more things, but to all of a sudden know how to?

Maybe books or NPC's can tell players how to make these items which would resolve in quests..

perhaps there is a great dungeon that leads under the river to the new land.. there perhaps a hermit or a new small town can offer more items or not just blacksmithy, but also craftsmanship ect....

I wouldn't think the dungeon easy to get through, but perhaps once map editor is made,, secret passages... mazes and even traps and riddles can be made.

I have some ideas for this is anyone is interested..

Well those are a few ideas I hope it is somewhat helpful.

~Still Illarions most sexy Mercanary <retired>~

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Tue May 22, 2001 10:37 am

On release dates: This Game is created by hobby programmers. There is no payed development team. Because of this I can't force anyone to do anything for the project. I could give you a date, but usualy the other people involved say two days before release: "I'll quit working on this for some time....". The only one, that has to handle your complaints then is me, so there IS NO RELEASE DATE.
@spells, items....: Most people talk about missing goals in the game. But at the same time, they ask for everything, how to use, where to get..., if they can't figure something out. I won't give any hints about that kind of stuff, so stop asking. Spells and runes can be introduced from one minute to another and so can items get a use, if they might not have one right now.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue May 22, 2001 11:15 am

Yeah =)
And as soon as we have the gods, we can start developing the story stuff =)

Sturm Feuerklinge · Post by **Sturm Feuerklinge** » Tue May 22, 2001 6:45 pm

Greetings, olde Friends, olde Enemies!

Like Dax, my person would stay out of Illarion, until there havent changed alot oft things, like Dax already said, but i will stay more time on the Board to show my presence.

To Bror:

Hey take it not so bad, I think he knows what Illarion means

Well, I`ll went now out for Board Study!

Greetings,

Dax · Post by **Dax** » Wed May 23, 2001 8:51 pm

Thanks Storm,

Bror I didn't intent on pointing fingers or to voice any displeasure in what you and the staff have done.

I am a simple man hoping to be a part of a game that will grow because it has such a good staff that are dedicated to the cause.

rain · Post by **rain** » Wed May 23, 2001 9:39 pm

ok i was not putting down u or the staff also but from what u say u dont make the game someone else does...............OK well this is a great game and i like it alot but make the skills harder and put more weapons in the game and add new monsters the only thing that has bin added was the ruins and the vases but nothing to gain things from need something new to do in the game

The Silent One · Post by **The Silent One** » Thu May 24, 2001 12:44 am

bror if you don't whant levels then would you make a rankeing sestem like in infantry it has a ranking sestem instead of levles

royan · Post by **royan** » Fri May 25, 2001 10:04 pm

Levels are not needed but the current skillsystem isn't good. In like a week you can easily max a couple of skills making yourself a just as good fighter, mage or whatever as people who have been playing for months. Skills raise too darn easy.

Also with the creationskills you are able to make everything after just a while. you don't have to be halfway maxed smitthy to make every armor/weapon in the game. As a tailor you don't even has to improve at all to be able to make everything. Now I realize this is because the game is beta but still I think the stuff should be more evenly spread over the skill.

I think it would be good if you can raise the other stats like strenght, agility etc. I mean you can get strong and more agile by working out. And you can become more intelligent by studying. I think it would be good to somehow be able to raise those stats as well as the skills.

Sir Draken · Post by **Sir Draken** » Sat May 26, 2001 2:48 am

Maybe every time you get a certain amount of experience, you get 1 skill point. With that skill point you can add to agility, strength, intellegence, etc. That would give you a chance to sort of increase you hp limit and mana limit, and other skills.

kyuushiki · Post by **kyuushiki** » Sat May 26, 2001 5:36 am

Bror you say the client is in c++?

I am currently a high school student who is learning this language through independent study and I would ever so like to see what the server looks like. Maybe I might (if I get talented enough) be able to help in the future with programming. I would still like to look at the program to get a feel of how you used the various programming methods to work for the gamming and visual asspects. I have not heard of Linux except in the broadest terms however and must look into it.