LF: Voting System/Abstimmungssystem, Citizenlist/Bürgerliste

Lyrenzia Foundation · Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:45 pm

added:
Klith
Zarah Auverne

Lyrenzia Foundation · Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:03 am

We hereby declare, that people, which are on the citizenlist of Northerot cannot be on the citizenlist of Lyrenzia at the same time.
Therefore all people, which are citizen in both systems will loose their citizenship in Lyrenzia.
Therefore will be removed in two days from this list:
Carahawen
Zerbus

If they prefer to loose instead their citizenship of Northerot, they can remain here.

---

Wir geben hiermit bekannt, dass Leute die auf der Bürgerliste Northerots verzeichnet sind, nicht mehr gleichzeitig auf der Bürgerliste Lyrenzias aufgeführt sein können.
Deshalb werden alle Bürger beider Systeme ihre Bürgerschaft in Lyrenzia verlieren.
Deshalb werden in zwei Tagen von dieser Liste gestrichen werden:
Carahawen
Zerbus

Sollten diese Personen es bevorzugen, stattdessen ihre Bürgerschaft in Northerot aufzugeben, können sie hier verbleiben.

Lyrenzia Foundation · Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:06 am

We furthermore declare, that the subject Grant Herion will lose his right to be voted for the last election and all future elections because of his try to cheat the election with payments.

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Wir erklären weiterhin, dass dem Subjekt Grant Herion sein passives Wahlrecht für die vergangene Wahl nachträglich aberkannt wird und für alle zukünftigen Wahlen. Grund ist sein Versuch, die Wahl durch Geldzahlungen zu betrügen.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:37 am

Where was that against the law?

Grant Herion

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:42 am

We as councilors of Lyrenzia have decided and voted upon this subject.
Is there a law needed? We don't want this way of manipulating the public.

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and Templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin
Councilor of Lyrenzia

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:43 am

So your word is the law?

Grant Herion

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:51 am

I would also like to know who the names of the councilors for this judgement were. Surely Dyluck and Elder Damien didn't vote on this. Last time I spoke to Elder Damien he made it clear that at all costs peace was needed to be made between Northerot and Lyrenzia. Not peace between Darlok and Lyrenzia, but the land of Northerot and it's people.
By making citizens of Northerot lose thier citizenship in Trolls Bane you are creating more tension between the two parties. Unless you want to start a war, which I don't want to fight in, you should think about the judgement you just made.

Grant Herion

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:52 am

Dear Grant Herion

as I just said in another case to you:

Dear Grant Herion,

as I just wrote ....

Aragon wrote: Lyrenzia are nine guilds and one public representativ. If these councilors decide, that the law is valid outside town, it will be.

if we decide this together, we have decided it together. Nothing more and nothing less.
It is our voting system, which we installed. So we can change and decide upon this system like we want.
Where is your problem?

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and Templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin
Councilor of Lyrenzia

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:54 am

But it is your voting system that puts people in jail. If you can just make a law out of thin air without telling anyone, then you will have the power to enforce taxes and anyone who doesn't pay will be jailed. Do you want to rule your citizens in fear?

Grant Herion

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:02 am

Wrong, my Dear.
It is our justice system based on the laws, existing long before written down, which brings people into jail.
It is our voting system, which allows the public to work within Lyrenzia.
It is our goal for fairness and justice, which forbids someone to buy his voices.

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and Templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin
Councilor of Lyrenzia

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:12 am

But is it not fair to buy a vote just as it is fair to buy time off of jail? The voter gets money in return for a vote, just like the victim recieves money in return for the bad guy getting time off.

Grant Herion

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:47 am

Wrong, your laws are enforced by an illegal town guard, who has yet to give me a decent reason for why I need to leave everyday.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:49 am

Considering that Fooser has done his time he shouldn't be forced out of town. Unless you all think that doing time in prison isn't good enough. In which case you would admiting that prison time is useless.

Grant Herion

Lyrenzia Foundation · Post by **Lyrenzia Foundation** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:53 am

We have added:
Rosa Smallburrow
Zare
Toby Ripplewater
Felkin Fennikish
Hadrog

We have changed:
Pronom Palmsugar

We have removed:
Carahawen
Zerbus

Lyrenzia Foundation · Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:56 pm

We have added:
Teranie

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:50 pm

Grant Herion wrote:Considering that Fooser has done his time he shouldn't be forced out of town. Unless you all think that doing time in prison isn't good enough. In which case you would admiting that prison time is useless.

But is it not fair to buy a vote just as it is fair to buy time off of jail? The voter gets money in return for a vote, just like the victim recieves money in return for the bad guy getting time off.

You still have yet to answer these.

Grant Herion

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:21 am

Grant Herion wrote:Considering that Fooser has done his time he shouldn't be forced out of town. Unless you all think that doing time in prison isn't good enough. In which case you would admiting that prison time is useless.

By your logic, considering that you ate a fish, you shouldn't eat an apple afterwards. Unless you think that eating a fish isn't good enough. In which case you would be admitting that eating fish is useless.

I'm sure any imbecile can figure that if eating a fish alone or an apple alone isn't enough to make you full, then certainly you can try eating BOTH or even more. Can you?

But is it not fair to buy a vote just as it is fair to buy time off of jail? The voter gets money in return for a vote, just like the victim recieves money in return for the bad guy getting time off.

But is it not as effective to wear extra clothes when you are hungry as it is to wear extra clothes when you are cold? Amazing logic.

Paying money istead of jail time is an ALTERNATE punishment, and one that is more severe. Proof that it's more severe? Count how many people chose payment over prison. I believe it's zero, give or take?

Loss of money to criminals is a punishment to them.
Loss of money doesn't make you worthy to be public councilor.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:25 am

Albernon, there is a very distinct difference in jail time and food. Perhaps a simple minded creature such as yourself cannot tell the difference. You see, people waste away in jail. And people eat food. A big difference.
Your analogy doesn't explain anything. I would like to hear from an actual judge not a dwarf citizen.
As I said before, the point in "buying" votes was to show that there was no law against it at the time. And yet I was punished for not breaking a law. Perhaps not an honorable way to win an election, but honor and politics do not go together, only in fairy tales.

Grant Herion

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:08 am

Wow, I'm so impressed that you can tell the difference between food and jail. Too bad it has nothing to do with the validity of my argument. Even minor peons could have understood that the point of the comparason is that 1+1=2. Just because you need two things to achieve the desired effect doesn't make the individual parts useless.
You eat both an apple and a fish when you're hungry. That doesn't make fish useless.
You punish someone with imprisonment and exile. That doesn't make imprisonment useless.

As I said before, the point in "buying" votes was to show that there was no law against it at the time. And yet I was punished for not breaking a law. Perhaps not an honorable way to win an election, but honor and politics do not go together, only in fairy tales.

Well then stick to your point and don't try to make desperate comparasons just by associating things that involve money and payment.

Honor and politics don't go together, you say. Yet you whine about what was done to you. Well for starters, why don't you just repeat what you just said and see if that solves any riddles.

By the way, you don't recall breaking a rule in the law, nor do I recall you recieveing a punishment written in the law. You just got revoked of certain rights that Lyrenzia created and gave you. It was never yours to begn with.

And before you get tempted to start babbling about how Lyrenzia doesn't have the right to blah blah blah either, just keep in mind that you're the one who's trying to use these rights that Lyrenzia created.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:13 am

So you shouldn't question or oppose a government you don't agree with because they are being kind and giving you rights you wouldn't normally have? Again I would rather talk to a judge rather then a citizen.
And remember, Jail time is much different then food.

Grant Herion

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:32 am

Leave it to you to try and summarize something with your own version in a general statement that is too broad.

I specifically said you shouldn't complain about Lyrenzia's rights in regards to creating rights when you are using those rights yourself, which in this case are the rights of the voting system.
I never said you were complaining about Lyrenzia's rights to create rights in this argument. I just said you shouldn't, because you tend to say "Lyrenzia didn't have the right to begin with either".
And remember, 1+1=2.

Lyrenzia Foundation · Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:25 pm

Grant Herion wrote:Again I would rather talk to a judge rather then a citizen.

We hereby gave the dwarf Albernon the right to speak for us to Grant Herion. His words are our words in this case. Because he only uses logic and we aren't able to use more logic in our answers has he allready did.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:32 am

Albernon, here is my arguement. Prison time is a punishment that is reserved for theives and killers. Fooser was an arsonist which comes down to being a theive. He was in jail for... I am not sure how long. But he served his time. He was able to stay in Trolls Bane all he wanted after he served his time. But now that there is a "Town Guard" he now cannot live in a place where he was before Lyrenzia and before the "Town Guard".
If he is not being a disturbance then why should he not be able to live in a place he has lived for so long? Who gave you the right to say he couldn't live there?
And as you can see you cannot simplify this into "a fish and an apple.." arguement. it is complex as is life.

Grant Herion

Rynt · Post by **Rynt** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:38 am

They won't answer your question because they don't have an answer. They don't have any good reason to stop Fooser living in trollsbane, their new town guard just wants to show everyone how 'powerful' it is.

~Rynt~

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:10 am

The answer is simple. Someone who repeatedly breaking laws with the sole intend of disturbing the peace of the town will, at a certain point, provoke more severe actions to be taken.
I hope this makes it clear for you. And no, Lyrenzia does not force people out of town because they criticize, only if their "critics" are fires in buildings and similar crimes. We would even throw our strongest supporters out of the gates if they would behave like Fooser did.

Adano Eles

Noble Knight and Instructor of squires of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:43 pm

Grant Herion, my example of fish and apples is valid against your arguments if you knew what your own arguments were and which ones I argued against.

Considering that Fooser has done his time he shouldn't be forced out of town. Unless you all think that doing time in prison isn't good enough. In which case you would admiting that prison time is useless.

This is what YOU wrote.
By your very own quote, you have concluded that Fooser should be forced out of town if they think that prison time wasn't good enough. Nobody disagreed against this argument.

The only other argument you had was that this means prison time is useless. I contend that your argument here is invalid, and the example of fish and apples sufficiently shows why.

You said that A should not occur unless B occurs. I did not disagree.
Then you said if B occurs, then that means C. I disagree.
I said that if B occurs, that doesn't mean C.
Now you're asking why A should occur, but you already answered it yourself. Because B occurs.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:33 pm

Adano,
when was the last time Fooser casted in town? When was the last time a case was used for him? And in his first case he wanted to pay for the damages he had done. But he couldn't find Silverstar Merchants.

Grant Herion

Guillermo Ballesta · Post by **Guillermo Ballesta** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:10 pm

Ich, Guillermo Ballesta, möchte hiermit einen formellen Antrag zur Aufnahme in die Bürgerliste Lyrenzias stellen.

Ratsherren die meine Existenz bestätigen können sind mit Sicherheit Lennier und Fienchen.

gez.
~Guillermo Ballesta~

Lyrenzia Foundation · Post by **Lyrenzia Foundation** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:50 pm

Die Liste der Registrierten Bürger Lyrenzias sind aktualisiert.

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The lists of Registered Citizens is updated.

Lyrenzia Foundation · Post by **Lyrenzia Foundation** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:29 pm

Grant Herion is deleted.