I think the current way of producting things is not very RPG like, because you need as much time for mining lumberjacking and smithing as you need for two or three mouse clicks. Items that need more time are just more difficult to make and just need more tries.
So I thought of differnt ways to deal with the time factor while producing items:
Every player gets a stamina value which is decrasing when he is using his skills, and when it reaches zero he cant use any skills and has to rest.
After using a skill the player is unable to use a skill for a certain amount of time, depending of how he used what kind of skill.
Increase the time the player needs to use a skill, example smithing:
Make a fire with the coal, wait until the fire is hot enough, put the ore in the fire, wait until its glowing, use hammer on glowing iron, when it stops glowing put it back in the fire and so on, until you have a sword.
What do you think? I would prefer the last solution, but its the one that would be the hardest to realise.
i agree that a stamina based production system is more realistic (u must be superman to make 200 plates in one h (real life )) in ad&d u need alot more time
for the 2nd i think all players need a flatrate inet connection and more freetime it also may blocking the gameflow but good for the age sys
the next step would be a stamina based fighting system (maybe less permanet pks)
This reminds me of a problem Illarion has. The time synchronistion. IMO there should be a definition how long a day in Illarion is, 2 realtime hours wouldn't be bad. And all actions should be synchronized with this. Like this:
1 Illarion day: 2 RL hours
An apple tree needs 100 days to produce new apples.
2 x 100 = 200
200 hours (about 9 days) for new apples on the apple tree.
In this case it would last lets say 8 hours to produce a plate armor. It's impossible to let the player stand there 8 hours only to produce plate.
Therefore I'd like to introduce a system of action-points.
Let's say a player has 100 action-points at a time. Blacksmithing needs 70 action points. Fighting 80. What happens if a player is blacksmithing and fighting at the same time? He would smith a bad armor, or fight bad, cause he has to divide his attention between this two actions. But only talking while blacksmithing would be posible, because talking hasn't much action-points. It would be possible too to stop a action with an unready product and start again later.
Do you get the point?
And wow, i think this is a pretty cool system. It needs to be worked out a bit, but it's the most realistic system I could imagine. And I don't know any other grafical MUD that uses this system.
And hey, Illarion isn't a game, it's a world simulation.
Sounds to me thats alot of pple that wanna start shops are gonna be outs luck if this system is added lol.And be broke.And makeing 250 plate armors only sell for 2k!And have you ever tried to make 250.My god talk bout taking a nap.
action points or stamina like mana point will be very good
the old prob realism vs playablelity
i think we can apples and grain grow faster coz this is a fantasy world and not our earth
24 (better 15) plates in 24 real h is fast enough
i mean 1 real h (i believe some will make many more)
Do you guys realize how much of a nusiance it could be?
The game is getting more and more complicated
and we don't need to deal with that
"nine days apples"
and "roast coal over fire and big long process for a stupid sword with attack power 1"
Now, how would we get a fire sword?
Or the blue viking helm?
Just my opinion but this is getting real bad if Bror considers this.
Tibia shouldn't become a UO copy, because than it would be possible that it end's up like Faldon. And Faldon is an nice game at the first glance, and if you don't know UO, but the world is DEAD. You can play for hours before somebody starts talking to you. And the map isn't a real world, it looks more like a very big testserver.
What I don't like in UO is this "Disneyland - Feeling". You have always the feeling that you are in a plastic world, made to entertain you. And that bores me. There is to MUCH playability! I don't want a game where everything is fair and there are only winners, no, I want a game that gives me the feeling of diving into a medival fantasy world. A world where I could die, make things I'd never do in RL. I want a world simulation. The thrill of playing a charakter isn't to gain some abstract points, the thrill is to imagine a other person in a other world. It's like playing theatre or writing books where you only have to write the part of the protagonist and the protagonists sourroundings write their parts by themselfes. I don't know if Bror and all the others want the same with the game, but i think at least something that comes close to it. And if not tell me - i don't like wasting my time for long proposals noone needs.
And I always thought that realism is in Illarion more important than in most other simmilar games.
Imagine a world where everything is easy, fair and good: It would be endless boredom, and that's what Illarion shouldn't be. I don't know how many pen & paper roleplayers there are among you, but I just want this pen & paper feeling of entering, really entering a complete new world. But in a online game you could build a world that develops by itself, to a certain degree, and not only in the gamemasters brain. A world where every new person you meet is a new person and not the construct of the gamemasters fantasy.
Sorry, this was a long articel, but I had the feeling that I need to explain myself, because a lot of people disagree to my proposals, they don't seem to understand my reasons for trying to push the game in this direction.
(Edited by Eleanor Rigby at 9:10 pm on Mar. 4, 2001)
>What I don't like in UO is this "Disneyland - Feeling". You have always the feeling that you are in a plastic world, made to entertain you. And that bores me. There is to MUCH playability!
thats the reason why i use uo as example coz thier balance is more (to much) on the playability side
>I don't know how many pen & paper roleplayers there are among you, but I just want this pen & paper feeling of entering, really entering a complete new world. But in a online game you could build a world that develops by itself, to a certain degree, and not only in the gamemasters brain. A world where every new person you meet is a new person and not the construct of the gamemasters fantasy.
ad&d ;-)
i agree
and u are more independent as player
the balance-argument does not count. it even cannot count because there are so many servers (emulated ones, of course).
if you are talking about osi - well, osi shouldn't even be mentioned, it has nothing to do with roleplaying.
talking about shards can eventually have some good effects, since we can find out what to do and, more important, what should in any case not be done.
@actionpoints:
We already use an action point system. The weapon and movement speed is a result of these points. Also some scripts have defined delays (i.e. lost actionpoints for the actions).
Imagine if an apple takes 8 hours, a tree would take days.. with all the woodcraft thier wouldn't be any tree's! Then what? Lack of oxygen!!! Destroyed Eco System and OMG!!!!!!!!!
See my point?
Think of it like a game ok?
Until it gets REALLY big and even then.. there are only so many resources available.. and because of that there needs to be a regeneration time quick enough to support that.
Now I do think that monster regeneration should slow down a bit... I can kill the demon or a whole room of skeletons and spiders and such.. and before I can walk out they are all back. Not that it bothers me I just kill them again a few times (like 18) before I reach the ladder. What can I say? Im a sucker for some bloodshed.
If you decrease the rate of generation Creaturea come back, then you have a problem with supply/demand. That means there are so FEW creatures right now and they are so EASY that to have enough for everyone they have to spawn quickly. Hopefully in the next version they can toughen them up a bit and add some more.. "Im thinking down south where maybe an old castle could be with huants and treasures and such"
Speaking of treasures... when Illarion gets bigger I think it would be great to have special items that can only be found once a day/week or maybe an Item that only one person can have period.
Secondly as far as deaths go.. Now the only possible way I can concieve of me dying is if 3 or 4 people decide it's "lets kill Dax" day and use magic on me before I kill them or run to safety. See.. I am untouchable practically.. and magic hurts, not sure if bows do yet. However even if I do die.. so what?
SHouldn't thier be a penalty for dying? Perhaps you lose whatever you had in your "hands" or whatever is on your belt.. maybe even all items.. That gives a great incentive NOT to die so carelessly AND it would help player interaction for someone to fear losing thier items to rott or theft.
perhaps though if PKed you loose nothing.
If you would consider not loosing items then what of temporary strength and constitution.. that would affect a player, Also while they wait to regain thier con and str they could work on thier crafts and socialize.
I understand that this game isn't going to be numbers "which is great" and Also that the programmers don't want to make it a hack and slash type game "again quite alright" However... don't go totally overboard and have no fighting in it. Some of us like to fight and get better at skills simply to be the best. However fighting can have good reasons to other than simply gaining "exp" like getting special items to sell or trade. If you have to defeat a hard Crit to get a good item than that not only keeps the traditional idea of the game alive but adds with the "sport" of treassure hunting. Would it also be possible for certain creatures "maybe later on you fight wolves in forrest or bears and such" but couldn't you make things out of that type of fur? Maybe even sell the hide.
I also would like to speak of a gossip command.
We have whisper #w and shout #s however if it gets much bigger Shouting isn't going to reach across town, or the country side.. so gossip would make sense to me.
typing #g would send your message to everyone who is listening. I would think that it would be best to be able to turn it on and off so you won't get alot of chat you dont want while playing, especially when it gets bigger, then maybe you could intergrate channels.
It seems to me that everyone is trying to BASE the game on something else instead of simply creating it. Who cares what other games are like, or what our real world is like. You speak of playability.. well what exactly IS that?
It's having goals that are possible but not always easy. It's having objects of desires.. quests, and many things to explore despite how long you have played.
My goal is to be the best.. I'm not yet, but I am getting thier. Once I reach that.. the only thing I can do is Max out my stats... and thats all.
This is why I hope the new version has alot of expansion and not so much of the little things. If they can create something new thats not easily conquered.. while the players are exploring that that shuts them up for awhile so the programmers can work on the little miticulous things, that don't take quite as long.
Dax awsome ideas though i dont think you should loose ALL of your items what would happen if you had one of those special items that were created once a week and a jerk came up and killed you with out any notice that would really suck what i suggest is maybe a small incramental skill % loss or maybe some gold or maybe your most currently smithed items. this way if someone has 100% in all skills and dies hell go doen a bit so no one can be completely 100% and maybe a dueling ring with maybe the ability to place bets and maybe a reward for the victor and a penetaly for the looser. tell me what you think
As far as the player having the special items and not wanting to loose them.. well it happens eh? Not everything can be great..also that would crate a higher price for those items. What would happen if they never went away? Somehow they need to..
A few more ideas though..
Perhaps Create a "chest" or storage place for characters so they won't have to carry around everything the own. If this is possible "I know it doesn't take alot of space" Then perhaps you can limit the things a character carries.
The lossing a bit of skill is a decent idea. I am still trying to keep thinking in game terms to make it more of an interesting and challenging game. Loosing items can be annoying, but then unless your with a good group or powerful enough don't go off fighting things you can't handle.. That makes sense right?
Also loosing stats can be very annoying if permanent. I simply don't belive that it should come to that though considering it would bring the whole stat number system into the players consious so we don't need that really. I belive you should get a 3 death buffer. Especially for newbies. That way they die 3 times but don't loose anything. being new it is bound to happen.
I still am firm in beliving some items should be lost.. whether its items in your hand, wearing or in belt. Without them being lost somehow the ONLY way for them to be recycled is for them to be set down and decay or to be used. What use would special items be then? If you go on quests "and I have some good ideas for that when the subject arises" quest to gain spells that are rare or hard to find items, weapons or simply good amounts of treassure for those whom have shops it would benifit them greatly.
you have to take into account that if we input all these new rules that it would be very hard for new players since they would probably have a lower stamina, less skill points and would be less patient...
it isnt fun stating a game where to get anywhere you have to spend along time making your armor just too make more armor and then make more to make money
Not fun for new players because they haven't built up thier characters you say.. well we aren't proposing ALL these ideas, just a big brainstorm to pick and choose which combined might make the best gamepolay and solve alot of problems.
Here is a simplified " yet drawn out" summary and a few bits of mine own imput.
You mentioned how new players wpould have to have patients to create armor to kill things to get money to make more things to make more armor to kill bigger things to open shop ect... "takes a deep breath"
Well.. first off, there should be creatures with differing difficulty more so than now.
Zombies "being slow and such" could be easy and sheep might help raise skill slightly. Next.. to avoid new players having to spend an hour just to create armor, have NPC's for now.. or a newbie NPC armory that offers the minimal armor for sale. It won't get you far, but enough to defeat a zombie or two. Now before I go on to more things here is the jist of it.
First the armor should be good enough to where the player may have to run after 1 maybe 2 zombies at first or they will die. That leaves the challenge aspect. As thier parry or "dodging" skill increases they will be able to defend better and gain money and skill from fighting the newbie creatures starting out. This also helps in reconizing the diffrence between new characters and experienced ones. However for the newbies to buy armour in the beginning in order to fight these creatures they will need money... SO after character creation you alot players a minimal amount of gold to outfit thierselves. "everyone doesn't have to start poor you see, it's called customizing a character just as ability points are used. Some may be mages and choose not to buy armor but books, ingeridents ect.. and stay in the back with a group buying armor at a later time when they are brave, or dumb enough to go out on thier own. Each player should have the ability to customize thier character and though they must gain things on thier own, starting out with simply cash for outfiting with minimal standards seems logical" So THAT alone would solve the problem with characters having to wait so long to do anything. This also means though that you would have to alter the stats on armor slight ,but I belive that needs to be done anyway.
On the dying aspect.. when a player dies whatever it is decided.. It should be implimented that a PK does not cause you to loose anything "unless possibly in an arena or PK area" AKA out of town in the deep woods ect ect.. but I would recomend these to be not in the range of mishapen and wandering newbies." That would leave the RP open that your not always safe. DOn't leave your character sitting while you go to the store "saves on server lag" and helps character development. Imagine not everyone has to be nice or good.. but if a player is evil they should be played evil "not chasotic evil which simply kills things for no reason" Perhaps poachers or thieves.. "drop 200 gold or I will kill you" they could be bluffing.. maybe not. Then you could be stronger and kill them instead... it leaves alot of options open.
As far as the armour creation... Items could have stats also.. not so damn strong however... and more of an assortment... at first skill is aprox 20% can make chain mail.. or studs "to add to leather armor which should be able to be made" Later at 5% scale mail or banded mail.. 80% field plate 100% full plate
for each levels.. it's one thing to make all weapons avialable and make special ones... how about having a weapon of each skill type "piercing, slashing, 2handed, concusion" (dagger should be piercing not concussion as it is presently)
and as they advance you get stronger and better types of the weapon... granted the weapons may get slower or faster, stronger with slower, faster with weaker... or as skill increases maybe not....
And as a finally coment on the weapons and armor..
How about instead of simply making each item you can also improve them.
EG: Blacksmithing a 2handed sword
Using a skill or also blacksmithing skill at a high difficulty to imrpove the sword making it stronger or quicker or whatnot.. Perhaps even adding gems, or colored oil to it to customize it and adding a new name..
Ruby sword, Moonblade so on and son on... Martin that would only really take 2 drawings.. one for in inventory one for on ground.
I want to emphasize "harder creatures and a staircase level "step increasing" and how about some new towns to travel too with new items and diffrent "maybe harder" creatures.. I would assume the farther you travel from the newbie town more difficult things would arise.
Dax brings up very good opinions. My veiw on PKs and death is this. You should lose all items but they should apear on the ground so if you hurry you can grab them. This also gives the more shady chars a chance to pick through your goods and take what they want and leave the rest. Thus creating theives, murders, cut throats, pirates, and the sort. Also, certain people could decide that this is wrong and deticate their profession to stoping this acts from happening. Thus we have police and bounty hunters. I think that chests should not degrade but more or less have a hp value like us that can diminish slowly over time and can be repaired by the skill of what ever was use to make it. (i.e. a chest will disapear if it has one hit point taken off every hour and it has 100 hit points in one hundred hours if no repairs are done) This whould give you a place to put your stuff that does not leave quickly and if attacked can still be distroyed. Thus the theives again and treasure hunters looking for chests to rob. Once lookable doors are in place you could put the chest in your house or in a bank vault that someone else created. Items in chest should not disappear. Bags can degrade slowly too but at a quicker rate like 5pts taken off every hour and all other itmes if not in a bag or box can disaper at their nomal intervals. So when you die and all the stuff in the bag is still left the stuff in you hands and stuff might disappear before you get there. That is my view on the subject. Theives and rouges are a part of everyday life in all worlds of fantasy and reality i can see so why exclude them here?
PKs still play a role but they should play the role and not kill with out reason. (ie he sees someone is not a reason however if someone displays his wealth to them inadvertantly then he becomes a target. This makes it so theives have a part in society.) And theives should not be marked. Think, do we know who all theives are? No, instead by word of mouth is how the theif should be branded. (ie i kill someone and they manage to glean my name from something i said or by trade mark or i introduced my self then they tell the next person they see and it eventually continues to spread to all. Thus a theif better be good or he will never make it in the world for if someone recignizes the name they will run or not deal with him, or the person could be a bounty hunter and take him to a jail if they have one or just kill him out right or take him to the person who commisioned him to capture the person. After the punishment has been delevered he could be released if it was a jail term. (ie make a box prison for him and then kill him inside of it to trap him there or have a building that has a lockable door and force him inside with the push comand and lock the door)
thanx that is my opinion on the matter of theives death and PKs. Bye and hope these become the new things to do in the next version or in one not far off.
yes i now that they were just ideas but as was mine.
i like the idea of the thieves and stuff but they would look different then the rest. Like most of the other races but this class would be kinda ragedy clothes and the like.Then you could pick them out between good players.
I have played thieves before "some quite good" and many times I had more money than most which gives me the ability to blend in and not have to look like scum. Think, juts because your not nice your going to wear rags? Booo!!!
Silver- Hmm Thives thing is good.. As far as locking them away.. MMmm Not only would that be highly difficult to push someone around the whole way to a prison..
Thieves will be thieves. AS far as the Pk's go.. sure when you die your stuff drops to the ground so they can picxk thought it. However I think that should only happen in PK areas selected by gm's .. not in the newbie town and maybe arenas.. that is to keep stronger thieves on murdering every noob he see's for the fun of it.
I would love to think that every player in Illarion are into roleplaying well and wouldn't kill a noob since the noob has little to offer.. but eventually people will come around and start trouble just for the attention. Lets try some forsight and stop it before it happens. Things will always come up that needs to bechanged of course.
i have a few suggestions
1.maybe time it takes to produce something based on skill level because as it is i could make items as fast as everyone else.
2.loosing all of your items is a bad idea unless you can store things in some kind of bank and still it would suck.
3.people should not be unregulated to the point where they suffer no penalty of any kind for killing newbies i suggets npc's as police.
4.will power effect how much mana you lose when casting spells or used as a defense modifier
5.ability to sell more kinds of items i think there should be a way to sell all items maybe just people setting up shops and buying and selling items.
6.more stronger monsters
7.possibly showing what square things are on
>4.will power effect how much mana you lose when casting spells or used as a defense modifier
It is already affected by intelligence
>7.possibly showing what square things are on
How? They are supposed to be always on the square below the item - if not, there is a bug with that item and I would like to know which item it is, so I can fix it.
> 5.ability to sell more kinds of items
That's not a bug, that's a feature. You should try to sell the items to other players! It's boring just to sell to an NPC. Take Royan as an example. He prefers to be a tailor. But he can't sell all his robes. So he made up a never seen sale strategy. And I think he sold more robes than any other player in Illarion *g*
"DON'T BE A TROJAN, WEAR A ROYAN"
> 6.more stronger monsters
Have you managed the monsters in the southern cave?
i guess i an the only one having a problem with it but when i was fighting the moths or whatever they are the only way i could tell where they were was guess or walk inot them.
)) in ad&d u need alot more time
