You are the barrier...

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Post by Kugar » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:22 am

You are the barrier...

Dear players,

I am not speaking from some butt-hurt angle because, in truth, I played this game long enough to grow a thick skin and accept things as they are. Besides, I don't even really give a boop about being a leader of a realm... But...

Some old guard players who know how bad things are (PO wise) are preventing any new things from potentially happening and making things better. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that is pretty BS but I want to address these people specifically so they understand: One may be a player of a character who is a complete POS and does things to destroy the hopes and dreams of characters in Illarion but don't be the douche bag who acts maliciously as that PO to prevent anything new from happening in the game. You are the barrier that stands in the way of progress in this game. If you want things to stay as they are (a.k.a we get excited for five minutes and log in for a couple month a year and then the game is empty because your ideas failed and you cannot accept anyone else's) then you are, in essence, a complete obstacle. How dare you stay in some manufactured, meaningless position of power and tell others they cannot elevate themselves in a bid to try to help Illarion flourish and get more players, due to some arbitrary requirements that you and your kin don't even follow themselves (Cadomyrb and Runewick government a.k.a. permanent positions that were picked due to ooc friendships and don't go away)? You need to take a long look at yourself and question if you actually care about the longevity of this game, or just maintaining your own ego. If you take the chance to have the ability and general common curtsy to think about any other player apart from yourself, then you may just be surprised at the outcome and what they can achieve that YOU DID NOT. When PO's who hold monthly events, per to tedious requirement (a.k.a Katharina Ross, who did great and did what she was told) aren't even considered for the position then it just tells all us other players that you are petty and scared. Petty that you won't let them excel at this game and scared that you don't want anyone (who is more competent than you) to be in a position of power where they rub shoulders with you. Whether I think you deserve the position you have (which I do not) is meaningless, but I hate to see people like you hold this game back and harm it in such a way that players within it cannot elevate or make any progress due to you and others like you. This game is like water. Its fluid... You need to let other players take the reigns and mold the storyline or we're all just left with your angle (which becomes boring BS - trust me, I know which is why I change the angle of Jefferson and you haven't seen him in a while... I actually listen to people).

P.S - I will still play this game and I will report any ooc behaviors based on this post against me to the game masters. I love Illarion and won't see it smiled with as long as I have breath in my body. I'd appreciate not being deleted or silenced on an issue I feel strongly about.

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Post by Lia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:27 am

Re: You are the barrier...

Sorry but you're only angry because Exelous was not considered a suitable candidate.

It was an IC decision that had pure IC reasons, for Katharina as well.

You mix here ooc with IC and I find that more than bad.

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Post by Q-wert » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:49 am

Re: You are the barrier...

Thats pretty harsh, calling me incompetent, petty, scared and claiming Cadomyrian positions being picked out of ooc-friendships.

I think you are getting a lot wrong there in regards of 'why' things were decided as they were. As already said in character, there will be an public in character summary in time.
The only ooc-component in this is the number and frequency of events, which is also an ic component (as someone whos player does not organize events, does not organize events).

If you want I can hand you the in character forum discussion on the matter. I also invite you to a talk in the Teamspeak should you so desire.

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Post by Djironnyma » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:04 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

It is currently possible to become a professor in runewick. What you have to do for it? Make an event once a month - you know how many people actually apply for this title? One - One I have begged to to take the position - no one else is willed to bring a bit live into the game for this bit of ig power. As long as these who complain about us holding the power are not willed to do anything for the game / the town I m arrogant enough to ignore them. Make events for the town, be active and you will get a fair chance - otherwise sit down and shut up (and i dont mean you in praticular Kugar since i know that you bring with jefferson very much action into the game, its more my general point of view).

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:18 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Djironnyma wrote:Make events for the town, be active and you will get a fair chance
That's the point here, isn't it? Being "contra-recommended" after trying to give central opportunities to get some rp without GM-support by holding an IG-event once per WEEK has a bitter taste as a player and is highly demotivating. I don't want to get everything for free just because my char/ I as a player plan stuff and hold events, that's not what they are made for. But doing it (to have hotspots for chars mainly, not to get a higher position IC) and then being contra-recommended just contradicts what you just said. I am not one who argues about IG-stuff oocly often and I look forwards to read the IC-reasons leading to this decission. To be honest I am a little disapointed that being active like that for months does not even lead to an "akzeptanz" as Sarney said ig yesterday. Again, I do not want my Char to be supported by all means (I know there are some aspects about Katharina which might seems to be unfitting for a char in a leadership-position) just because I hold events, but taking that into consideration would have been nice and not giving one the feeling that ig-activity (Which is actually an IG- and OOC-matter) does not get rewarded.

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Post by Q-wert » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:52 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

As the matter seems to be hot right now, a quick ooc-summary as to how things went down:

The decision on 'who' becomes Nobility is the one of the Queen (=gm team), but the recommendations of the existing Nobles, the advisors of the Queen, weight pretty heavy (or so I think). This decision has not yet been made.
Three (or four, if you count the last minute application) candidates formally came up to Ssar'ney or his people declaring their intention of becoming a Noble. All of them were given the same advise: Hold events, win over the Nobles.

Two Candidates met the pirmary requirement (activity and regular events for a prolonged time): Katharina Ross and Dantagon Marescot
Both also had displayed certain traits from an IC-standpoint, which over all balanced out equally.
However, both had a grave (but at least in Ssar'ney initial assessment not fatal) flaw in their resume to be commended from a purely IC-standpoint: Dantagon disobeyed an important order/judgement of Ssar'ney and Katharina had an affair while still carrying her old family name.

Ssar'ney did ask his followers on what they thought (also in regards of the other candidates, but they pretty much completely agreed with Ssar'ney there). Which was: The affair is a no-go for Nobility. The refusal could be tolerated, given the circumstances.
Thus, he concluded: No one of the candiates can be recommended, Dantagon could be accepted (but not recommended).

My recommendation on the whole matter as a player would be: Deal with it ingame. It already has been said that the decision is not set in stone.
I would very much prefer in character drama over ooc-drama... just give me some time to do a proper Lettarius-post.

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Post by Lia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:00 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Nobody wants to deny that some people are trying hard. But separating ooc and ic should be important.

Katharina had a chance, but there speaks too much against her...ic ,
I understand that it frustrates. But I will not impose my opinion on my char just because as a player I may see it differently.

ic =/ ooc

I wait for 2 Real life years that my character finally comes on, and it does not depend on me either.
Nevertheless, I do not make an uprising...still countine waiting. -.-


Maybe you can find other options.
eg a feast at the end of each year (ic year) By the nobility (or the queen herself) highlighting people of special merit and conferring a 1 year honorary title.

That would honor the performance without affecting our characters.

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Post by Annabeth » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:12 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Q-wert wrote:claiming Cadomyrian positions being picked out of ooc-friendships.
True, something like that should not be claimed since my Annabeth was given her position and became the first noble of the current noble system due to her numerous contributions and activities over the years in Cadomyr. Then again, at the same time, Ssar'ney and Fooser were soon after made barons(counts, at the time), without having such contributions or activity and even being behind more deserving active characters in Cadomyr.

All because of an ooc decision by a GM, now whether this was ooc-friendships or something else, who can really tell when there was no in game reasons for these characters promotions? Fooser proved himself to be a bad choice, since he gave up on the role soon after, which would have been avoided if the GM had taken the time to have people prove themselves (Or even ask my Annabeth who was the only noble at the time, for her opinion, which the Cadomyr GM at the time did NOT do, instead deciding for a 100% ooc decision on the matter).

Ssar'ney on the other hand, despite not having proved himself before he became a noble, has ended up proving himself time and again to fulfill the criteria of activity, holding events, etc etc. My Annabeth may have disagreed with him a lot, and I also do not agree with certain ooc ideals he has, but at least he as a player has put in a whole lot of effort that can not be ignored and is fully deserving of his character having such a role at this point after all that effort, no matter how or why he got the role in the first place.

I hope this time around, the GM in charge (despite appearing to be as inactive as he was when I killed off Annabeth and quit the game) will actually consider both of the nobles opinions of who's to be the third noble, but at the same time value who put in more effort and have been more active, so that you don't get another noble that just leaves the role soon after or goes inactive but one that actually contributes.

Still, the reason I killed her and quit the game was partly due to the bullshit with ooc that's directly tied to the role of having your character be a player leader, so I personally wouldn't have high hopes that things will drastically change since how it was back then.

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Post by nathi » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

hej

the feedback so far supports a little bit the problems Kugar wants to point out. Maybe it should just be thought-provoking, not upsetting.
btw. for me, as a casual player, there is no question that regular appointments are mandatory. Such a commitment would ultimately drive me out of the game altogether. My char ingame has never claimed to a higher position on its own initiative, will not bed about, and will never do so in the current social and political situation (all IG matters).

warmly regards PO Deanna

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:42 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Thought-provoking is a good idea....

Suggestions are always a positive and I realize some as mentioned can be dealt with in game. The ooc part however is what this thread is about I assume? So, what are some ooc suggestions? A positive discussion might be beneficial.

1.There can be numerous approaches including more then one added house off the top of my head... Perhaps even delaying for awhile the final choice would see who is persistent and can sway the Queen more.

2. Perhaps an upset with the Queen (i.e. a long lost relative comes and persuades her to dismiss all the nobles so everyone has to vie again for positions which would remove the permanence/it is possible this can be on a regular basis and give all a chance). Some ideas may not be as popular as others :wink:

3. Perhaps a meeting of all Knights to give their favorites (similar or different from the voting in Galmair).. .

Make a list of the ooc ideas that would be difficult to consider in game... bring up the rest for an in game event?

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Post by Slightly » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:40 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

It is a big positive to see we have a community that is alive and caring for our Illa :D

Many of the points raised are thought-provoking and frankly I can't wait to get back to play on some of those issues in game.

As many of you will be aware, I have been struggling with time the past few weeks after an ISO inspection got brought forward a month... so long as I get my section in order, come the 19th I hope to return to both playing and rather more active GMing.

Nonetheless I still have half an eye on Illa (there is a reason so many of you are always walking into my GM obstacle :wink: ). Sometimes I see great RP that may never even come to light in the greater game world. Every little gathering, every gossip, every argument happening in game matters and is contributing. Even if you feel your event didn't go as well as you hoped, often the bigger influence on the game is in the planning and reaction.

Now with interest building and two potentially vacant positions we have a great opportunity to revitalise in game. If you have characters in Cadomyr or Runewick who would you like to see in a position of influence? Would you dare protest if there was someone you really didn't like? Maybe something underhand would be your only option? Perhaps you are a Galmairian and figure you really don't need another pompous windbag interfering? Politics might bore you silly but perhaps there is an opportunity for financial gain? Maybe you know a secret about one of the potential candidates or an existing political figure? Do you talk about their failings as you work the fields or do you embark on a path to right their wrongs?

Just to note, no political position should ever be considered permanent... sometimes it might take a while to bring about change, other times it can be all to quick. The game is fluid and people will make mistakes in game and out, only us as players need to be forgiving.

Back to work / spying for me.
Hope to catch you ALL ig again soon.
Slightly

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Post by Q-wert » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:29 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Current System in Cado (according to law, simplified):
---
  • Cado has < 3 Nobles:
    Nobles have Houses (basically top-down political parties). People join Houses. The better a House serves Cadomyr, the more weight its voice have when advising the Queen.
    People in the Houses agree on who to support, the Houses Nobles give this support in form of recommendations to the Queen.
    The Queen decides who to give the Noble title (very possibly following the most 'weighty' suggestion)(GM-Decision).

    How Nobles lose their postion:

    - The Nobles House holds no event in 2 IRL months in a row. This also dissolves the House.
    - Nobles are allowed to retire and can name a successor, if they served longer than 1 IRL year.
    - The Noble does something threatening the Queens position as supreme ruler. (GM-decision)
---

Issues voiced about current Cado-System (insults towards me aside):
  • - Requirement of regular events is tideous
    - Nobles rarely lose their position
    - New potential Nobles are blocked by old Nobles
Personally I very much like the requirement of regular events, as it measurable and does bring at least some activity to the game. The other points are basically the same: There is a feeling of not enough fluctuation of leadership. With the gm-shortage we have, I would like to automate as much as possible. This might also calm the ever resurfacing (still unfounded) claims of GM-favouritism.
Thus, Ideas on how more fluctuation in leadership could be achieved:
  • Allow candidates to challenge and replace Nobles (maybe in a field battle?) - A little paranoia and the need to have allies never hurt roleplay.
  • Encourage the use of retirement. - Maybe people would retire their chars from Nobility... if they had more than plain loss for it.
  • Tighten requirement on frequency of events. - Two events per IRL month should be bearable for a guild.

PS: Should people who find that my behaviour is hurting the game (such as Kugar) indeed seek to talk about the matter in stead of publicly calling me names, I am still available in the official Illarion-Teamspeak at the next mutually suitable day and time. Just pm me.

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Post by nathi » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:48 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Q-wert wrote: - Requirement of regular events is tideous
-----
Personally I very much like the requirement of regular events, as it measurable and does bring at least some activity to the game. The other points are basically the same: There is a feeling of not enough fluctuation of leadership. With the gm-shortage we have, I would like to automate as much as possible. This might also calm the ever resurfacing (still unfounded) claims of GM-favouritism.
hej

I play Illarion just for fun and often just for relaxation. For me, commitments to cramp an event would take away both, fun and relaxation quickly.
For events that I have organized I always needed more or less preparation. Often it was in vain, and sometimes disappointing. I also see that it is similar to other players. And there are always those who make commitments to get an “ingame burnout” after a certain time. There are very few people who can keep it up.
My best experiences in Illarion were spontaneous RPs, not the planned events.
It is perfectly acceptable that some players try to bring continuity into the game with fixed rules. However, if this does not improve significantly over the years, then perhaps the authors of these rules should break away from these principles. What can happen? It stays as it is, or it improves.

lg nathi

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Post by Q-wert » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:52 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

@Nathi: Do you have ideas on what could replace organizing events as the primary requirement for town leader characters? I think it needs to be something measureable, which does show how active someone is in leading a settlement/ doing stuff for a settlement.
Active followers would come to mind for me, but that is hard to track for non-GMs... and terribly easy to exploit with ooc-connections.

I think that playing a town-leader 'is' somewhat tideous, no matter how you organize it... and that is kind of the point of the requirement. Why have someone play a town leader character who does not find this kind of stuff (board meetings/diplomacy/pm-conversations with GMs/writing announcements) appealing? In the end, that is what you do once you have a character in that position.

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Post by Kyre » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:09 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Q-wert wrote:........Why have someone play a town leader character who does not find this kind of stuff (board meetings/diplomacy/pm-conversations with GMs/writing announcements) appealing? ...........
I'm sorry, but the witch never found it appealing (board meetings etc) and does what she can to disrupt those same events though loves to talk to the citizens.

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Post by nathi » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:43 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Q-wert wrote:@Nathi: Do you have ideas on what could replace organizing events as the primary requirement for town leader characters?
I have nothing against events. However, I personally consider stiff regulations such as "the char has to make an event once a month" somewhat unfortunate because it is incriminating.
I prefer an unplanned event that was thought up with fun, rather than regular events that are created under pressure.
Certainly the arrangement of a char should be measurable for higher qualifications, but how much significance does a regular event have? I think it is also possible to look at social behavior in this respect. How often does the char play and how regulary? How social and respected is he in his community? Diplomatic, political reasons, and there will also be injustice, of course. Well, Galmair has a very special system, it is the justice of gold. But it would apply to the other two cities. However, both cities have become somewhat bogged down in their principles in my sight.
It is also these rank orders that must be mutually agreed with the Rp. If all chars were human, it would be easier. However, in a world like Illarion where apart from humans, dwarfs, elves, halflings, lizards and orcs can have very different meanings. Here is the question of what is important, that everyone strives for ranks, or that chars such as elves might have little interest in ranks? I think there are not so many chars that the suitability is not measurable.
Hrm, I'm should not to write this. To much ooc is not good for the rp ;-)

lg nathi

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:15 am

Re: You are the barrier...

You know I don't know about this situation however I did make a post in the past about this kind of behavior. Like characters spreading non-relevant information (gossip) that wasn't true to intentionally frustrate and stifle the play of others. It would be impolite to bring up the involved people and conflict producing so I won't, however it's dirty playing. If your character doesn't have a good reason to lie about others and literally just want to prevent them from getting people involved with their rp by ruining ic reputs then yeah I'll be obvious and say I don't like that. There is an obvious clique system here but it's not that hard to get past it if people just tried hard enough you would find someone to play with and to get help to work toward a goal.
Last edited by Charlotte-ate-wilbur on Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Djironnyma » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:13 am

Re: You are the barrier...

nathi wrote: I have nothing against events. However, I personally consider stiff regulations such as "the char has to make an event once a month" somewhat unfortunate because it is incriminating.
Illarion is indeed a game for casual players. Anyway every player/char who wants take responsevillitys IG have to be responsible. To make a small event once a month is nothing what can be called stressfull. We have players which make an event once a wwek and they have also a livem a job and a family.
I prefer an unplanned event that was thought up with fun, rather than regular events that are created under pressure.
Certainly the arrangement of a char should be measurable for higher qualifications, but how much significance does a regular event have? I think it is also possible to look at social behavior in this respect. How often does the char play and how regulary? How social and respected is he in his community? Diplomatic, political reasons, and there will also be injustice, of course.


How do you want to measure that? The rule about one event per month is because it is a very simple and obvious way to measure a chars activity and input. Name me other ways how I can measure fairly how active a char is and what he do for the town and i will consider them with pleasure.
If all chars were human, it would be easier. However, in a world like Illarion where apart from humans, dwarfs, elves, halflings, lizards and orcs can have very different meanings. Here is the question of what is important, that everyone strives for ranks, or that chars such as elves might have little interest in ranks? I think there are not so many chars that the suitability is not measurable.


Concernign our lore dwarfs are ruled by a king (no vote, no matter of what he does/did for a town once crowned hes the ruler) and elves are ruled by the elders (again no vote if you are old and wise you are an elder and done). I dont think such systems would be better for players motivation.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:38 am

Re: You are the barrier...

Yah know what I really miss about pre-vbu that might help some of this claim to fame, allowing others to have their glory thing? Actually, I am sure none of you actually care, but I am gonna say it anyway. Guilds.

Oh yeah, we currently have a few successful guilds in the game. Two houses and the Bearers. But they are incredibly stagnant and why join something you know you can't move up in? And if anyone else tries to create a group that has any possibility of success, one of three things seems to keep happening. Either they get chased out by one means or another, they fizzle out as quickly as they started, or they cause a hostile take over and fail miserably. Why does this happen? Because the political parties are threatened or because there is no other way people see to change things other than to attempt it by force. But if a successful non political based guild can draw people in to rp and want to participate, then maybe you should encourage it instead of making attempts to squash it or control it.

Here is the other thing that is really harming things. Inclusivity. I get it, we are a world group spanning both sides of the pond and some crazy content in the middle of no where. But let's be honest. No one on my side of the world, unless they are jobless or work night shift, is attending a meeting on a Thursday afternoon. Yeah sure, this is open to everyone, but you are unintentionally excluding people and then wondering why no one is interested. And yes, I know, I run my things on Wendsday nights at 2 am if you live in Europe. But it is because no one is on! All the anything happens while I am sitting at my desk at work at 2 pm on a weekday. And then I get home and there are maybe 3 people online. One of them is me. One of them is Slightly who should be asleep by then. Another is off pging somewhere. I really miss when Illa at least had 12 people online in the evening on a BAD night. So yeah, I hold my events at late times, because I hope people might actually get ig to rp. Isn't that the point of Illarion? Creating rp?

Of course, no one has applied for the open spots. Of course, no one has pushed to fill empty spaces. No one cares anymore. They are broken and don't feel like fighting a hopeless battle. You can only slam your head against a wall so many times before you get a concussion. So why bother?

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Post by Caine Trevall » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:38 am

Re: You are the barrier...

Actually i wanted to stay out of this topic but ... oh well.

It's somehow sad that it hd come to this, but on a long sight it somehow was inevitable. Since i stated playing half a year ago in Cadomyr there was ONE topic always present. Sometimes more or sometimes less, but people were somehow ALWAYS unhappy about how the nobles did run things in Cadomyr, and some tried to solve things in a IC way, but had to fail eventually. Why? Simple: There IS no way for anyone to change things about a noble in an IC way. As soon as you openly disagree with him you are put in place and brought to silence, so how to change something if you cant even speak to anyone who CAN change it about it? I guess, in time people started feeling just what Dan expressed just now, and how i feel at the moment:
Dantagon Marescot wrote:They are broken and don't feel like fighting a hopeless battle. You can only slam your head against a wall so many times before you get a concussion. So why bother?
For now i guess i will stop trying to change things (where others probably stopped logging in), and will for now start concentrating on Caine himself, because in the end there CAN NOT BE DONE any actual changes when things are like now.

About Events:

There are usually different kind of persons around in a game like Illarion. The First kind has absolutely no interest in putting up Events for others. The second one has no problem with it, and maybe events puts them on in a weekly base, and the third one also has no Problems with it, but just wants to make them "special" and not only do them because they "have to".

I,myself am one of the third kind. I have no interest in putting up events like on a conveyor belt. If i make an Event i want people to join in. Actually a LOT and have fun while being there. That includes a lot of thinking and planning, so that everything goes smooth. Sure, i could also put on a weekly knitting Group, or swimming courses in Cadomyr up, but the first question would be, would ANYONE have fun while being there, and the second thing is ... would people even BOTHER to appear?

Someone cant just say "putting up events is necessary". Someone must put up events which actually makes the players WANT to join.

As an example (without malicious intent):

The Arms practice of the Sea serpent. When i first joined there were ALWAYS people around who joined in, and alone that fact meant that it was fun. But as i went there last friday (i was not meeting up with friends that evening after a long time) there were actually only four charakters there, including me ... and only TWO of them needed the actual training. My guess would be that people got actually bored by repeating the whole thing on a weekly base and stopped bothering about it.

So much on the topic for now from me.

Again i didn't want to rub anyone the wrong way by writing, but by now i guess there are a few things that just NEED to be said right now.

Caine

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Post by Lia » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:20 am

Re: You are the barrier...

Caine you play just half a year and that irregular. how many events did you see in the time?
And how many things have you done yourself?

These events, training and house meeting of the Sea Serpent have been going on damn long, regularly.
At one time you did not even think about playing. And you judge now by a few times where you were there.

Events happen constantly, what do you think would happen if everyone thinks like you do? then 99% of the events would not take place at all.

Most are regular events that are held regularly. Like meeting in Runewick, magic class, Sea Serpent meet. Training, ....

Sometimes you have more desire of something , sometimes less. Sometimes you might meet RL with friends, another time you can not because work or sick or or or

That say nothing about the Event, not about a regulary one.



last but not least


It's not just Cadomyr, but all of Illarion.

A few have no desire to act against the nobles, because the way is so difficult for them.

A few are tired of Jefferson and his people, because most of them are "They are on, I'm dead"
Unless you limit yourself considerably, and that's not fun sometime.


A few are tired because the Letma event is already over RL years, and thus brings other things to a halt.


There are many construction sites here

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Post by Q-wert » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:42 am

Re: You are the barrier...

In regards of inability to move up: In the Sea Serpent we are looking for people to take over branches of the House (Military, Diplomacy, Faith), where those people basically would replace Ssar'ney in the respective area. Can you guess how many people are interested in doing that, moving up in a guild by taking responsibility? None. I'm not buying that people don't join exisiting guilds because they cannot move up. I've been in several guilds in different kind of games in the past, and no matter how rp-centric, strict or loose or how well managed, once you showed initiative and put in effort, you always moved up.

On how to change how Nobles run Cadomyr: Join one of them... or at least join forces against the other Noble. At least in the Sea Serpent the Noble basically does follow what his members want (also in the decision about new Nobility I was so vehemently insulted ooc-ly in the initial post). The Noble Houses were kind of at each others throat for all of their existance, and once you are under the protection of one you cannot simply be silenced by the other(s).

On a different note: I don't think that guilds and the problem voiced (stagnating leadership) are too much connected. In Galmair there are none of the restraints complained about and the leadership is ever changing, the situation is basically the old Gobaith po Dantagon praised in his post... and how many active guilds (guilds doing more than having a member list) does Galmair have?

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Post by nathi » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:30 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Djironnyma wrote: How do you want to measure that? The rule about one event per month is because it is a very simple and obvious way to measure a chars activity and input. Name me other ways how I can measure fairly how active a char is and what he do for the town and i will consider them with pleasure.
nathi wrote:Certainly the arrangement of a char should be measurable for higher qualifications, but how much significance does a regular event have? I think it is also possible to look at social behavior in this respect. How often does the char play and how regulary? How social and respected is he in his community? Diplomatic, political reasons, and there will also be injustice, of course.


Of course, I also see the problem you're talking about. But what can be measured by the regular weekly or monthly appointments? It's the fact that the char is online and can be found in an agreed place.
If it is only a question of "switch-on times", this can be evaluated as a quantitative measurement parameter. But it says not much about the chars qualitative activities, these values can only be evaluated in RP.
The question is, what do you expect from a higher rang char?
In addition, there are IG barriers. In the case of Runewicks, hardly non BoF-char who has summed up his or her senses will submit to the reigning town leader. He himself has created this situation and his highly controversial status in such a way that he has to recognize it as a selfmade problem, act accordingly or not (similar in Cadomyr). But it takes time to change things as they have grown. A faster way would be, we erase all our chars and start from the beginning. But I think most of us are too self-absorbed in their chars, including me :oops:

lg nathi



lg nathi

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Post by Tyan Masines » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:39 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

If we're at it with thought provoking theories, let me add one: The VBU got rid of the "player run" towns and installed three GM leaders. Later, due to constructive criticism of the community, the staff ruddered back and allowed a hybrid: We still have the unreplacable three, who pose as statues, magic barriers that can never be overcome and can never be wrong, but we also have some players run stuff in every town.

It might be this hybrid that is stalling progress. There is an incentive to try new stuff: By the player leadership. But in the end it is limited by said three statues. All or nothing. Take it back to GM run towns (and appoint three separate, active GMs, with some Staff Group control over them, so town leaders have a consitent, predictable personality and don't act like they suffer from a schizophrenic character disorder), or remove the barriers completely and give it to the players.

Becuse with the low player count, the newly formed player government positions take up most people, so why form a guild? If towns were ONLY GM run, there would be space for guilds (and by that I mean: More than one per town). Respectively, if there were no unreplacable town leaders, there might be more opportunity for everyone, but it could get chaotic & there's a risk of player corruption.
Naturally, none of the two models is flawless. But what might be even more flawed is the current hybrid, especially due to a low player count.



On another note, we've had topics like this 100 times already and I feel the biggest loss is that the findings are never summed up. A lot of repetitions in these posts that pop up every two or three weeks. Thus, I'd like to link to the most recent one we had before this and to a post by Artimer/Vern Kron which, in my view, sums a lot of things up and is wholly agreeable.

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Post by Caine Trevall » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:41 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

@ Lia:

I would like to know the Reason why you specifically attack me like that? Yes, i might only have played for about half a year, and i might not be online on a daily base, but that does NOT mean that i cant see things and how they are run. And it wont stop me from forming and expressing my own opinion, or have i missed a Rule that says "expressing of opinions only after x months of active Online-time"? I havent attacked anyone and just wanted to give my two cents on the topic. Maybe it helps to improve a few things, or maybe not. It cant be told right now, because everyone works with other peoples thoughts another way, but that still is NO REASON to attack someone and state that he has no idea because he maybe does not play this game the same way that others do. About me and holding events let me re-post a little something from my last post:
Caine Trevall wrote:There are usually different kind of persons around in a game like Illarion. The First kind has absolutely no interest in putting up Events for others. The second one has no problem with it, and maybe events puts them on in a weekly base, and the third one also has no Problems with it, but just wants to make them "special" and not only do them because they "have to".
Caine Trevall wrote:I,myself am one of the third kind. I have no interest in putting up events like on a conveyor belt.
Meaning that if i want to put up an event i want to make sure that people that attend also do enjoy it, because else i would feel bad myself. So simply said, if i want to put on events, i want to do so and put quality over quantity. Thats the way I think, and im fully aware that it is neither the right or wrong thought about it as people are different and so are theyre opinions how to handle them.

That i took the Arms practice as an example on how Events should NOT be has nothing to do with the people who run it.
Caine Trevall wrote:But as i went there last friday (i was not meeting up with friends that evening after a long time) there were actually only four charakters there, including me ... and only TWO of them needed the actual training.
The Arms practice was one of the FIRST Events i actually participated in and back then i was really surprised how many people joined in. It was the same last Friday when there actually were only four People that participated, and to be honest, if people dont participate in an event, it must have a Reason. I cant say which one this might be, but it MUST be there, and must be found out if someone wants the Training to be like the first one in what i witnessed.

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Post by Q-wert » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:25 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

@"Quality" events:
People want to be entertained, they want to play the hero, they want to make important decisions... but they do not want to work for it. Thus, events and plotlines tend to die if you hand important tasks involving work (as in mapping, GM-communication, writing texts, chasing after characters with pos in different timezones, putting up quests, ec.) to other* players. They also somewhat fizzle out once you start repeating yourself. (Take the steady decline in participation in the 'three' Cadomyrian markets and crafting competitions as one of many examples.)

In my experience the quality of an event mainly comes from the participants. I rembember a very lovely and pretty well prepared desert expedition from someone else which turned out somewhat dull, just because there was no initiative from the regular participants who were expecting to be spoon-fed their own entertainment when they were given freedom of creativity. Then again we had events with as good as no preparation which turned out to be a blast (like the slave hunt), just because of how the people participating went with and built upon the premise of the event.

For the weekly arms practice... I just put it up and see who comes and did so for well over a year (and well before Caine was around). Interest fades after a while, but spikes again once people realize that they need them combat skills for whatever threat is hot right now. And as long at least someone shows up and can be helped with their combat skills, I'll keep doing it.
The Sea Serpents also do other events in varying frequency (enough for the Sea Serpent to pass the current requirement of event-activity - and not all of them shown in the quest calendar), should anyone claim us resting on that practice.

No matter the extend of preparation, events are kind of hit and miss. More probably hit if the premise is interesting or relevant, more probably miss if things repeat themselves.

-
*There are honourable exceptions, but such work horse players sadly are far and few between.

Edit2:
@Caine: One event per IRL-year is very probably not enough effort shown to become a town leader, even if you seek to do quality over quantity.
Last edited by Q-wert on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Lia » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:32 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Caine Trevall wrote: The Arms practice was one of the FIRST Events i actually participated in and back then i was really surprised how many people joined in. It was the same last Friday when there actually were only four People that participated, and to be honest, if people dont participate in an event, it must have a Reason. I cant say which one this might be, but it MUST be there, and must be found out if someone wants the Training to be like the first one in what i witnessed.
Lia wrote:
Sometimes you have more desire of something , sometimes less. Sometimes you might meet RL with friends, another time you can not because work or sick or or or

And really all who make a event would that People enjoy it and would make sure that People enjoy ist.


But they dont wait months or years if they become i perfect idea. ( there are never a perfect idea) They try it.
And apart from the regular events, I have rarely experienced an event that was not visited.
And not enjoy. Sure maybe not all enjoy a event, but there are ever peoples who do it.

At the wedding of Attos and Sefja I was also insecure because I had no idea to fill the event so that everyone likes it. In the end Attos and I realized spontaneous ideas and they arrived. The people had fun at the event.

Although I was not 100% sure if everyone likes it. But as I said that you can never be.


What i really miss is that Gms help more if someone have Event ideas. I did show 2 times a event what i planned really long and with the help from others Peoples to make it for the Englisch speaker nice too.

But i got never a answer.

Sure, I could also try to get players to help me implement it. But I have my doubts that this really works. Illarion is a rather small community (if you look at the active ones)


Edit: No i dont means that gms never help if Player have event ideas. I mean only this example, where i got no answer.

Sorry seems my englisch is really to bad. Some players told this me at the Moment , so i want to say sorry if my words hurt someone.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:06 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Guys! Look! Seriously!

We have multiple people suggesting thoughts. Multiple people are giving constructive responses. Not hateful, not attacking, but actual suggestions as to other ways of working and to improve the game. And yet, the same people are responding rather verbosely as to why these possible changes cannot and will not work. Two of you are actively in positions of power and are considered leaders both in and out of game.

You don't have to agree with everything people suggest. Sure, some things quite simply can not and will not work. One event a year does not an active leader make. But you know what does make a good leader? Someone who actually listens to the suggestions given to them, and if they aren't insanely off the wall, tells you to try them.

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Post by Caine Trevall » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

Allright. Since i just wanted to point out my view of things, and ive done so, i wont answer on anymore unrelated posts, since it seems that the whole thing seems to get drawn into the wrong direction. I just wanted to make sure that my personal opinion is noted about the topic and that it was understood the right way. Before it elevates anymore into the wrong direction (for the topic):

The sense of this Topic was to make known that some players are unhappy on about how things are run, and more importantly, how it COULD be changed in a way that most people are happy with.

(drats! looks like Dantagon was faster!)

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:38 pm

Re: You are the barrier...

It seems like plenty of people have had their say and some good ideas have been suggested. Perhaps opening up a thread in the proposal section might be good now? I'll lock this thread however if someone has something urgent to say it can be reopened... just PM. :)

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