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The Rules Need To Change...... - something is very wrong wit
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 5:23 pm
by Vortex
This is the first and hopefully the last time i have to put such a post up !!
Background story....
Raknol and Dark Elf James are good friends in real life....
Yesterday Raknol was PK'ed twice by a group of humans.....
So....
Also yesterday Raknol had a friendly fight with James.....
Unexpectedly Raknol killed James with only one hit.....
Callysto and Muten Roshi turn up and blow everything out of proportion....
they call raknol a PK'er and start thinking up "suitable" punishments even though james has returned and is blaitently saying that it was a accident and raknol dosent need to be punished.....
Callysto thinks of the "punishment" which strangely enough is to PK raknol... which he does.
Callysto "thinks" hes done the "right" thing by PK'ing and goes on his merry way....
while all the time the actuall PK'ers of illarion (humans mentioned earlier) walk around without callysto or anybody else caring !
Hope Someone reads this......
Thanx
A very annoyed Vortex..
And A very very dissapointed Raknol.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 5:33 pm
by drag
vortex, let it go, let ir go. i ahvent been on illarion for a month because i have moved(driving)cross country. all i can do is look at the boads n post, but tomaro, i might be able(finaly)to get online int he actual game. i will assist u with watever it is that needs to happen. i wasnt there, so i would like to hear there side first, then i shall decide wat happens. sry to sound like a controle freak, i ownt come allone, ill bring a well trusted freind, then WE shall decide.
but i heard that PKing is happening a lot more than it used to and is geting oyt of control, is that true? i ahvent been on to see if it has
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 5:56 pm
by Vortex
I'm afraid to say it is true...
During the past few weeks i have noticed a rise in the amount of PK'ing.
Also thanks drag any help will be gratefully accepted.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 6:02 pm
by Roke
Unusual, I have noticed a decrease in PK'ing and conflicts.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 7:20 pm
by Bror
So, what has this whole story to do with the topic ("The Rules Need To Change...... ")???
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:02 pm
by Vortex
sorry bror guess i forgot about that bit !!
Callysto had bassically decided to himself that killing was not allowed under any cirumstances were as in the rules it says killing is allowed as long as there is a valid reason.
Am i right in thinking this ?
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:20 pm
by Serpardum
From what I read in the rules, PKing is not allowed *without a RP reason* or in a rampage situation.
A certain little hobbit mooned my dwarf, and believe me, I ran after him with sword swinging, until he logged (dang loggers, I'll get you hobbit, mark my words...). That, IMO, is a good RP reason and from what I understand is allowed in the rules.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:48 pm
by Bror
@Vortex: Still can't see the need for a rule change. Perhaps propose which rule should be changed and to which text. Maybe then I'll understand.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:55 pm
by mannelig_
I think I understand, callysto thought killing was wrong, but th eonly "punishment" dealt was killing, so...
change the rule to
"killing should NOT be allowed except without a GREAT roleplaying reason"
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:30 pm
by Ney'Tara
Right, let's see then:
7. Playerkilling
The killing of characters without a role play reason or multiple killing in a short time is not allowed. New players which aren't familiar with the game should be treated friendly and with care as long as they are not acting agressive.
That's the rule, and it could be changed because:
It says that the killing of characters without a roleplay reason is not allowed. This seems a dangerous statement, because you are condoning the killing of people as long as you play your character and you have a valid, in game reason to kill him. But that's not how Illarion should really be, it's saying that the law system states that you have every right to kill someone else if they do something to you first. Actually, it's worse, it says that you can kill them if you even
think you have a valid reason for doing so, and that's dangerous.
It's dangerous because a mistake can be easily made, for there is no difference in avatars so should there be a thief about there's a much higher chance than in real life that you get confused over who it is, and the law then states that you can kill the suspect
if you have a reason. That is bizarre, because if something happens to your character while you are afk, for example, you have the right (to a certain extent, it has to be in a relative amount of time) to search and destroy any
suspect that you find. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, whether you agree or not.
This is how it could be changed:
It's about two things, the wording of the rule could be changed and the rules could be more obvious to the players.
1st: The rule should be reworded so that it should say: 'The killing of characters is not allowed unless: A - It is a duel to which all active players have agreed to. B - In case of theft or PK'ing, it is not allowed unless you have first tried to
rationally (That means, no cursing or other intimidating remarks, just asking the reason 'why') speak with the suspect. Should that not work, you are given the oppertunity to
roleplay your character's revenge as long as you are sure beyond a reasonable doubt that the other player is indeed the suspect.
Now, I know that it sounds all fancy schmancy but it's a rule that will eliminate at least 75% of all PK'ing. Of course, that is given that there is proper moderators to actually make sure that the rules are followed, if you let the community alone with just this rule than it will have the same effect as now, which is nothing.
Notes:
- English isn't my mothertongue, so if someone is a native and proper English speaker and he or she would like to comment on my rule, then I'm more than open to it. Of course, this is a wording issue so you'll have to kinda think long and hard over it.
- Everything written up here is solely my opinion. You may or you may not agree, and unless you have a comment about the current rule and why you don't agree with what I thought of it or the way I worded the new rule, I, without offence, don't really care about it then. I don't wanna ignite a discussion about PK'ing and all that. Again, I may sound a little arrogant up there, but I don't fancy saying that it's my opinion after every rule, so imagine it after every rule

.
Sincerely.
Ney'Tara.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 11:36 pm
by mannelig_
I agree comepletely. The rules should be reworded, becuase of...well...everyreason you have placed there, this is a valid post.....
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:12 am
by Serpardum
I disagree.
When all is said and done, the only defense you have is offense. This is an RP game, and sometime there are just RP reasons to kill someone. And to be killed.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:48 pm
by Ney'Tara
Right, and with what part of my post do you actually disagree ?
Don't you agree that something should change to stop the humongous amount of Non-RP Playerkilling right now ? Really, I can't see what part you are disagreeing with, or even why you are disagreeing ? But if I read your post correctly, you say that sometimes people just have to attack to defend themselves in Illarion ? And that people just have to die because that's what roleplaying is about ?
Also, I believe that the point the creators of Illarion have is 'When all is said and done, the only defense you have is roleplaying'. If it would be 'offence', they wouldn't have hosted the game, because no one wants to host a game where everybody kills eachother for selfdefence. And if you would have bothered with reading all of my post, you would've seen that I said Should that not work, you are given the oppertunity to roleplay your character's revenge as long as you are sure beyond a reasonable doubt that the other player is indeed the suspect.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:10 pm
by Bror
@Ney`Tara: What you are doing is giving a list of three actions, that may be replied by an attack (duel, theft, PKing). Therefore your rule doesn't allow any not listed kind of killing, but there may be a hundred other reasons, that we may not think of right now. This is why I wouldn't use your rule.
I can't see the problem, that you see with the current rule (you may kill by mistake a wrong person, thinking you have a reason). This may happen in real life too, so why shouldn't it be allowed? If there are two people standing behind me in a concert and one punches me in the back, I may turn around and get angry about the person, that looks more like a person that likes some trouble. I do this naturaly, although the right person to get angry at was the other. This is part of human nature and should therefore not be forbidden by the rules (this doesn't mean, that you can be punished for that behaviour in game by a court trial..). So I can still not see whats wrong with the actual rules.
PS: At the concerts I visit, punching is a very common action, so I don't get angry at all

The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 5:29 pm
by Ney'Tara
Bror: I, indeed, give three examples in which killing the other player is allowed. I purposely gave those three not because I can't make more up, but because those three cover at least three-quarters of all the cases Rule 7 applies to. Of course if we all stuck our heads together we could think up a hundred billion reasons such as 'When a fighter shoots his arrow at a druid, and this druid dies, then the druid has the right to interrogate the fighter as to whether or not he was purposely aiming at the druid. If that is the case, a battle may follow'
Naturally, that is utterly and completely useless to list all sorts of scenarios. But, and I'm sorry, don't you think that your argument of that I haven't listed all possible scenarios is not a good one ? No one can list all the scenarios and reasons to which Rule 7 may apply.
A second and probably more important issue. I can perfectly relate to this, mind you, but I'll hope you'll try and understand: "I can't see the problem, that you see with the current rule ". I hope that you will see the problem, the problem with the current rule is that Playerkilling is the number one worst problem in all of Illarion. The steady downfall of the economy or server blackouts are all far, far less important than the rotting that is occuring in the community. Every day, and also on this forum, you hear reports of people being playerkilled here and there. The problem with the current rule is that it doesn't work. It doesn't fail, it just doesn't do anything at all. And I believe that in order to stop the horribly grotesgue number of PK'ers and their victims and any more cases, is to edit the rule which should stop PK'ing, but fails to do so.
Also, you can hardly relativate killing another player with punching somebody at a concert. Of course you get angry at eachother, and my editted version of the rule allows that! All it stops is the unprovoked, unreasoned PK'ing that is rampaging currently. And in all fairness, you must know that there will never be a court trial or anything, seeing as you can't force players to appear and all that.
Please respond to my second statement, that's the one I really, really want a reply to.
Sincerely.
Ney'Tara
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 6:04 pm
by Caranthir the great
Ney'tara, people can be prosecuted even when the refure to appearl in to the court.
Just judge(s), witnesses, and respecentative for each side of the case.
Professional attorneys?
:biggrin:
About your proposal, was insulting people mentioned there?
What if someone insults me, I ask for duel and he declines?
What about orcs, and other a bit rough people?
Requirement for duel in case of being insulted doesn't fit into them perfetcly, it may fit into aristocratic persons and elves, but not for orcs.
Imagine that you insult a orc or dwarf, and then what? "I demand a duel?" I don't think so, rather pulling up weapons and chasing you around troll's bane.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 6:24 pm
by Ney'Tara
Caranthir: The court idea sounds nice, on paper, but when it'll be done it won't be as good. Example: A player starts killing people, he is put into prison by a God, and is given a fair trial. Suppose that we find all the people willing to fill all those places in a court, there's no actual point in sentencing the suspect. The result would be, lets say, he is sentenced to three months in prison. About 97 of 100 people will say 'Pfft, I'm not gonna wait three months, I'm gonna go play another game.' Then there will be 1 every 100 who will complain, moan and bitch his way out of his punishment and then leave. 1 that will make a new character and level him up and do the same again. And 1 more that will actually sit out his punishment and not do it again. All in all, it will not work, or not enough.
Then your hypothetical situations.
If you ask someone for a duel, and they refuse then there's little other you can do but leave it be. It's not fair nor fun to bug people for a duel, and nor is fun to then kill him. About the rough types, there's little you can do about that. But chasing someone after an insult is much different than pure PK'ing. Also, you cannot make rules on what to do when insulted, it depends on your character. But I can imagine people taking offence incredibly easily just to kill something. Imagine being a creator of this game, then you cannot put insulting in the rules. You can hardly say 'When you are insulted, it's ok to kill the one who insulted you' because that will, I don't know how that can be, make the PK'ing even worse than it is.
So, I can't make a solution for insults and what to do, because it's very much different. What can be done, however, is to make sure that not alot of n00bs will go and play an Orc just to be offended easily and kill alot of people. That, and firmer moderation in the game to look over those matters and judge them individually.
(Edited by Ney'Tara at 6:29 pm on Aug. 23, 2002)
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:50 pm
by Urmel Grabowski
1. i dont think that the RCKing that is currently happening in illarion is the biggest problem(i dont even think that its happening very often).the non-existend economy is much worse,and if the community is "rotting" because of this few incidents,it cant be a good community anyway(and i think it is good).
2.the rule shouldnt say which type of killing is allowed,but which type is not allowed(as it is doing at the moment),because its much easier than listing every possible allowed situation.
3.i dont think that RCKers follow the rules anyway
just my two cents
(sorry for my english)
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:43 pm
by Ney'Tara
lollol yeah, perhaps I was a bit melodramatic. But seriously, it is the biggest problem in Illarion, unless you can name one bigger. There are about 5-10 PK's a day if not more, and I think there are alot more that we just don't here about. And yeah, the rotting part is a bit over the top, but it's a bad influence on the community. You're right about that it should list what can't be done, but I think that will be just as long as what can be done. Cuz alot of murders aren't allowed, of course.
And PK'ers will have to follow the rules under proper moderation.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:42 am
by Urmel Grabowski
"But seriously, it is the biggest problem in Illarion, unless you can name one bigger. "
i did,the economy:)(my opinion)
"There are about 5-10 PK's a day if not more, and I think there are alot more that we just don't here about. "
maybe but not every kill is a random kill and thats what is not allowed because its just killing for no reason.
"And yeah, the rotting part is a bit over the top, but it's a bad influence on the community. "
non-role playing killing of course,but dont mess it up with rp killing because thats an important part of the game cus its a middle age scenario.
"And PK'ers will have to follow the rules under proper moderation."
Sure,but what i was trying to say is that they dont care for the rules,they will just random kill,knowing that they break the rules and not caring for the punishment theyll recieve.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:49 am
by Dyluck
Although I'm not around 24 hours a day 7 days a week, I have been around quite a lot the last few weeks, and I would say 5-10 different random PKs (playerkillers) a day is a huge exaggeration, at least during the hours that I'm around. I see maybe 1 random PK mayber every few days, althogh I can't comment about the hours when I'm not around. But I hardly doubt the PKs pose a huge problem to people's ability to roleplay. Of course it has an effect, but it's not the actual cause of non-roleplay. It's just simply because a lot of people don't roleplay anything in particular and just want to raise skills or smith all day and make armor and weapons, and when they find out there's nothing much to do with these weapons and armor they get bored and leave. Then those who do actually roleplay just simply don't have much to do, even I have to admit Illarion can be quite boring. As a new player in Illarion, you just don't find much roleplaying related things to do much.
Say you think of background story for your character and how to act. Alright so then you go out there and find someone to talk to and tell them your background and they tell you yours. Alright then you find another person, but 9 out of every 10 person either has no real background of interest, no background at all, or just wants to mine and smith. Once in a while you find people who listen, but then you just keep telling your story over and over again. Starts to get repetitive and you get sick of telling your story. You try to look for something else to do, but what is there to do? Everyone's just mining.
See what I mean? OK so maybe I'm exaggerating just a little bit. I'm sure you can find a few other things to do to keep yourself occupied for a while and expand the conversation a little, but there is only so much material to work with. A lot of people have finally grasped the concept of the difference between ic and ooc, roleplaying, and acting like your character, but there's hardly anything to do with those skills. Many people can roleplay, but there are only so few people who have the creativity to make something interesting, or event or a quest or some kind of problem or new idea that can grab other people's attention and get them involved and interacting together in something interesting. I'm trying hard doing things like this, but one person just isn't quite enough. More people just have to be more creative and create ideas and things that can get a lot of other people involved.
But wait, isn't this part of the GMs' job too? Isn't that ability one of the things that got them chosen? To make quests and other interesting events? Well I haven't seen or heard of any in quite a while now.
(Edited by Dyluck at 3:56 pm on Aug. 23, 2002)
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:08 am
by Brendan Mason
I know exactly what you mean, Dyluck, but it's easy to roleplay if you only try...In fact when I first downlaoded Illarion and made my 1st char, Simonic Jace, all I did was build him up....and I had no fun...
However, I deleted him and made my 2nd char, Brendan Mason and now the only thing I do is roleplay!
I have a sword and shield alright and some skills but only enough to get by. However, that's the way I like him! He's like a RL char, he has flaws, which I show when I roleplay! (He is sensitive, loves a chat and is always here for a friend...however he gets agitated easily and often breaks down and cries!) I have fun with this role, as it's something different!
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:11 am
by mannelig_
Roleplaying a Prince of a destroyed country is a bit harder, since he is expected to be strong, and mannelig isent.....but yes, I do get by It hink since build 19 people got weaker actually....
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:24 am
by Vindigan
about pking, this was somthing that happend to me the other day and i would like to know if it is against the rules.
I was walking towards the shop when i saw a long line of insides lining the streets and a dwarf putting them down neatly, i walked up and presumed he didn't want them, because he was putting them down. so i took one and he came running up and hit me with some sort of axe that almost killed me. I managed to heal myself and run. Later on I saw the dwarf, he didn't recognise me, and i asked him why he was putting items on the ground, he said it was "bait" for thiefs. i asked him what he ment by that and he told me that he puts items on the floor and kills people that take them.
now i dont think this is fair but is it allowed?
by the way, I think we all know you've been here since build 19 by now mannelig.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:05 am
by mannelig_
its good to make sure, hehe.
anyways, I'd like to do ye old, "how my roleplaying"
How my roleplaying?
call manneligs messenger on this board with any comment.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:51 pm
by Bror
"Naturally, that is utterly and completely useless to list all sorts of scenarios. But, and I'm sorry, don't you think that your argument of that I haven't listed all possible scenarios is not a good one ?"
The argument was definitly not, that you should list all reasons! The argument, was that, if you don't list all reasons, you restrict the roleplaying, because things that are perfect RPG are concidered PKing by your rule. Therefore, we shouldn't use any rule, that gives a list (which MUST be incomplete) of something.
"the problem with the current rule is that Playerkilling is the number one worst problem in all of Illarion"
I accept, that PKing is a big problem in Illarion.
I do NOT accept, that the reason is the rule. Changing the rule to your proposed text will change nothing (except punish some RP-killers as pointed out). The problem is not the rule, the problem is how to enforce the rule. I can't monitor an average of 20 players online for 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
"But seriously, it is the biggest problem in Illarion, unless you can name one bigger."
We currently have no server programmer and if we don't find one in the next weeks, the project Illarion is DEAD. In my humble opinion, this problem is more serious than the PK situation.
@Vindigan: If its PKing or not depends on the story and general behaviour of the killer. I could imagine a story, that makes this behaviour be part of his role, but I doubt that this character had such a story.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:26 am
by Callysto
I agree with Bror there. The pking problem should be adressed in character. Which is exactly what I do, which is misinterpreted by some. Is there really a better solution? If you just let it go, what will happen? Especially since the server doesnt have a programmer right now, I think that Bror and the other GMs are a tad busy and cannot adress this problem. Which means that if killing these murderers is not permitted, what will they do? Keep killing. My point has been made
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:10 am
by Xaveria
Nice - Calysto - that why you act like that - i´d never understand before.
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:13 pm
by Damien
Bror has put it right. And those who violate the EXISTING rule would simply continue to violate the NEW one.
One thing : If you get Killed for a misunderstanding, accept this as a misunderstanding. Try to befriend or know the "PK-Hunters" (or PKKs, PlayerKiller-Killers). When they know you and when they know that you are NOT a "PK", they may help you and go after the right persons.
This goes to the PKKs AND the PK-Victims :
If you get PKed OR hunt a PK, please STAY IN YOUR CHARACTERS ROLE, KEEP ROLEPLAYING !!!
The phrases "I've been PKed", "He's a PK", even "I'm No PK" are OOC TALK.
If you talk OOC stuff like "This guy is a PK" or something like that ( in fact, all the phrases "GM", "PK","Game", "Skills" is OOC Talk and forbidden by server rules !!! ( Except when you whisper your ooc stuff, marked with brackets, like :
#w (( ooc : blablabla<ooc-stuff>blablabla )) ).
If you hunt a PK in GAME, Do it as your Character would. Use the word "Murderer" instead of "PK". Stay IN YOUR ROLE, and do tzhe hunt the roleplay way. Otherwise, you would simply do the same thing the PK did before : You would disturb the roleplaying, and you would violate server rules (which is a deletion reason).
The Rules Need To Change......
Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:27 pm
by Roke
I believe that the biggest problem right now is not player killing but role-playing. People who just met talk about OOC stuff all the time around people. Sure even I talk OOC but I try to remember to tag, whisper or go to a place where there are less people. The rules will always be violated by some people, even when (if?) the e-mail application system gets integrated. The rules about player killing are fine as they are. There are Very little incidents compared to February and January when we had an influx of people coming into the game and deciding to kill everyone in sight. The way I would like to see the rule changed is that you can not kill if someone "steals" something from you. These people could have a perfectly rgood role-playing reason that they steal such as they live their lives as thieves or they are living out on the street and need to get food somehow. I try to convince people of a rule used during Midevil (sp) times if I remember correctly from school: "An eye for an eye". Although this will not work for stealing it will work for player killing for the people who know and try to folllow the rules but follow them exactly as they are worded. If someone attacks you, you have the ability to attack them back ONCE you are positive that was the only person who could have attacked you. But you should be prepared to face the consequences.
I know it took a long time for me to get to the point but I hope that most people understand what I am trying to say. I think the game is very good as it is, better than some games that I have bought and if there was not 1 change made to the game I would still play it.
Thank you to all of you.
(Edited by Roke at 11:28 am on Aug. 26, 2002)