Illarion.org

I posted this as a response, to something in the Newbie forum board, but upon a minute or two's thought, I figured it should be here, as well.

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:49 pm Post subject: I hope this isn't rehashing.. but...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The frustration comes from the 'mobeus strip' that the new hopeful encounters....

-You're told to only submit a character attempt once.

-You're told you may be waiting a week, minimum, for a response.

-You're told that you may not receive any contact... at all... especially if your name isn't good

-You're told that even if your name is good, it may still be quite some time before you're contacted...


Okay... those postulates being part of the theorum, frustration emerges. You want to be patient... you want to be a courteous person.. you don't want to annoy anyone, by peppering them with questions, that you fully know thousands of people have asked before you even got there... but...

Here's my suggestion... and... please note... it is only a suggestion.. it is not a demand.. it is not a complaint... it's an observation in proceedure, which I think may alleviate some headaches... Feedback appreciated, as to its advantages and drawbacks...

---------

Newbie World---

It can be a small area, where it's almost like a waiting area or lobby.

There are generic avatars, for male and female.

There is a 'status board', which shows the last action that happened with their account (things like:
-email opened (meaning, it was seen.. something like a 'return receipt
-email deleted (it was deemed silly, and therefore trashed.. so they know to delete their avatar, and apply again)
-email awaiting response (an email was sent to your address, awaiting your response to it)
-email banned (for whatever reason, you really irked someone)

(status board seems it would be easy to set up.. but, not knowing the programming environment, the method that's in my mind might not be compatible)

There is a small area outside the lobby, where people can look, and get a feel for the type of graphics the game will have.

There is a small library (with books that can't be kept, which auto reset back to where they came from, upon logoff)

Well.. you get the idea... there are any number of ways to placate new people, to at least give them a sense of acknowledgement, and to give them a definite place to check for account progress, and not be a burden or a bother to anyone.. and it may greatly reduce the chatter in the forums, because they'll have a place, in game, that they can do so.

Also, this may help the admins, because if they log into their 'god' accounts, and review a Who list, of who's in "Newbie World", they may notice a name they've been awaiting a response from, and send a Tell to that person.

Now.... alllllll of that being said.... if I didn't say it already, I'll say it now: Newbie World (or whatever the final name of it would be) is CUT OFF FROM THE REST OF THE GAME. This means that whoever is in it, cannot disturb the characters in the Real Side of the game, they cannot interract with the real players, and they cannot disturb any storylines, because they have not been accepted, and they are not allowed to be in the real game yet.... the area they are in, is a courtesy to them, and a potential relief to everyone else, because the newbies are stuck in one area, where they don't have to deal with them.

I think, doing an area like this, which has a status board, that they can check on their progress, would relieve a lot of people, and let steam out of various 'pressure cooker' people, who might be going nuts with all the messages that they deem spam, and the new players consider as 'honest curiosity'.


To sum up my whole rant, and the novel I just wrote... I'll just say this: Without a definite timeline, for a new person to know about, they'll have this feeling of limbo, and encounter the contradictions I mentioned at the top of this message, and they will likely not know any other way to resolve the confusion, in their minds, other than to make posts to the forums. Unless you give them a definite way to check *something*, then this type of thing will always occur. This is a computerized world, and people know that being able to 'check status' of something is something they like, and that calms them..... Okay.. am starting to go into psychology, so it's time to wrap up this post...

And, again, to re-emphasize: This is NOT a demand, this is NOT a complaint about what is missing, this is NOT a subtle way of coercing people into doing something.... this IS offering an idea, this IS offering a method to relieve some of the administrative headaches (as, once the area and system are in place, they don't need to be further developed, so will not take away from development time of the real game)...

Okay... done.. honest... no.. really.. I am..... so..... time to sit back... wait.... see how well this is received, or how many slings and arrows are loosed against it..... remember, this isn't intended as an insult to anyone, nor a downplaying of someone's complaint about 'us newbies', so please don't read this message with hostility... think it over, and understand why this idea would come to me, in the first place, given my position.

Trager.

Trager, cant agree more with you, shoot for the stars, youmight shoot one down

A humble peasent

-Keryn

Sounds like a very large waste of server space. Do you know how many people will flood into this newbie world and whatnot? No, not a good idea.

That's why I said just generic (one fits all) avatars.. there's be like... two.. one male.. one female.... or, could just be something adrogenous (sp?). It doesn't even have to be that fancy... in fact, for general amusement, I suggest stick figures... but, that would be silly.... so, probably not...

No, the idea is to have something new people can go into, to check status and stuff... and, you can even have a 30 minute limit to it.. heck.... even 5 minutes limit would be enough... just enough to check the status board, see if there are any tutorials in the library, read some, then split.

It's not meant to be a hangout... it's meant to be a sort of "green room" to the grand performance, that is Illarion (I assume.. as, having never been logged into it, I can't judge for myself yet).

Sorry, I was unable due a lack of time to read all your post.

So I will reduce my answer and toughs to your "Newbie World".

There is a big, a very big, disatvantage in my Eyes.


I dont want to lock 'Shiv'nar tel Uhr' in the same room as 'Megal33tkilla'.
I am too much afraid to lose Shiv'nar.


The Game itself is (not yet) connected to the Account Mailing System.
So our Gameserver is unable to check your account status in the procedure of getting an account.
In the distant future we might be able to provide a account system that offers such a check up.

http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... php?t=3645

Well, personally I like this idea of a newbie "zone" or island, but I fear that this idea doesn´t have many fans...

I want to add my thoughts to this one, first of all maybe would it be possible to let only thoses enter the newbie world who´s characters name stand the name rules? Then, thoses with an approved account could "enter a ship" (teleporter) to head for Troll´s Bane (technically: the character data could have a value ´approved´==TRUE / FALSE, so only certain people can use the teleporter like only certain races can use certain gates...). Well, this would include a lot of work for the GM´s, they would have to "activate" a character twice, nethertheless I think many possible good players could be attracted this way because they could test the game before they send in their story.

Now, I also fear that this newbie zone could be a pool of PK´ers and idiots, but maybe this can be prevented if you allow certain "trustworthy" old players additionally to the GM´s to access this zone as well, so they can act as a guardian angel or bouncer? Just a though...

Belegi wrote:http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... php?t=3645

Well, personally I like this idea of a newbie "zone" or island, but I fear that this idea doesn´t have many fans...

Now, I also fear that this newbie zone could be a pool of PK´ers and idiots, but maybe this can be prevented if you allow certain "trustworthy" old players additionally to the GM´s to access this zone as well, so they can act as a guardian angel or bouncer? Just a though...

Actually, the other thing I thought I mentioned, by likely didn't... people wouldn't be able to talk, not able to attack (as they have no skills nor character attributes).... basically, the 'people in the room' would be, for all intents and purposes, "ghosts". They aren't born yet, so why would they have the ability to kill other people....

Heck, you could probably also make it where they can only see themselves, and not anybody else... like, there may be 1000 people in the room, but they only see themselves, and not the other 999 people there. This room/area isnt' meant to substitute for the game, rather give them a method to see how close they are to 'being in the game'....

I hope this makes the idea a bit more appealing, especially from the coding aspect...... the idea, for me, is that while the game has a complexity level of, say, a jet engine, the area I'm proposing might have the complexity level of... oh.. ah dunno.... a paper airplane...

Technicaly I am sure that you proposal is make able (not right now, and not tomorrow).

But than the question is:

If you are in a Room, cant talk, cant fight, cant use anything, cant even see the others.

What is the use of the room? (Beside to show the player how a wall looks in Illarion)

Keikan Hiru wrote:Technicaly I am sure that you proposal is make able (not right now, and not tomorrow).

But than the question is:

If you are in a Room, cant talk, cant fight, cant use anything, cant even see the others.

What is the use of the room? (Beside to show the player how a wall looks in Illarion)

1. A place, outside, or instead of, the forums that they can check on account progress, and leave active players alone.

2. A place to see what it is that they are striving to be a part of, so they can know its worth the wait

3. There can be books (unlimited quantity item, decays upon logoff) which they can learn about the world, and roleplay, and social environment (or whatever the GM's are noticing is a recurring problem).. generally, game educational material

4. GM's can look at logs, perhaps, and see who tends to log on quite a lot, and who doesn't. It can serve as a benchmark to see who would be active, and who would only play on Sunday.

5. GM's can also leave newbie specific Messages Of The Day... maybe something like "Kavan, please respond to Game Master So-And-So, they have a special project they'd like to use you on" or whatever crosses their minds.

There's all kinds of potential uses for it, once it's in place. I'm simply trying to suggest the least impacting version, for now, so it's a launchpad for other ideas they might have, in regard to Newbies.

And, to give us Newbies (to this game.. not necessarilly newbies to roleplaying) a more concrete method to verify if we have been rejected, accepted, or whatever, so we don't tend to end up in the forums, or sending another account request (the day before we would have been accepted, or sent our story request, from the GM's)...

Please reread the first message of this thread, as to the reasons that something like this would be comforting to those of us who know no other way to know if we're being patient, or being foolish in our long duration of wait.

To 1. :
They log in, move to the Teleporter, nothing happens.
Log to Boards, I see new Topic:
"Why does the TP not TP me !?!?"

You cannot get rid of those questions, not this way.

To 2.:
A place with all that restrictions you mentioned is death boring.
In fact you can only see grafics, if this place has some to show.
You proposed:
No talking
No using
No attacking
No seeing.

To 3.:
www.moonsilver.de
But nothingless a good Idea

To 4.:
Why should I care for how active is a player?
Thats his/her buissness, not mine.

To 5.:
I would never recruit a "Newbie" to a 'special project that crosses my mind'.
We have a huge stock of experienced player where GMs can rely on.


All in all I am not persuaded.
True, there are advantages, but you did not point them out well.
Disadvantages seems to be bigger to me.

All the Informations can be provided via a Website.
May it be background stories, Screenshots or the Status of your Account (someday it will be easier to check).


Maybe you find some other atvantages for a Newbie-Isle/Zone/Room?

why not just make a seperate client where you can play your made character, just you download it and your not connected the internet so nobody else is there. Just to move around use things, kill some zombies, and it affects nothing with your accuall characters?

Okay.. for Hiru, I'm going to sit back, debate this, and come up with a definitive list, and each point having my perceived strengths and weaknesses... I had hoped to offer up an idea, that would spark ideas by the creators, and they'd run with it.... but, I fear 'autopilot' will not happen... so... gimme a day or two, and I'll have a full proposal written up, with as many permutations as I can think of, so points can be striken from the list or denoted as good ideas.

Will post more to this thread when I'm finished.

Gro'bul,

this is not possible.
The Map, the Monster everything is controlled by the Server.
So you cannot play "Illarion-Offline".

The reason why all the AI is by server is becuase of client space. and time to download and some other technical reasons/ect....

I think

No, its just because it needs to control all players at the same time

ahh sorry, must have been my mistake

As promised: I have taken some time to think this concept over, and I’m ready to list out my points of why I’d like to see this, and even include my perceptions of good and bad points about each.

Topic: Newbie Account Checkout Room (working title, not final of course)

Alternative RP Names:
Limbo
The Hall of Birth
(any number of things possible)


Functionality/Contents:

1. Basic 10x10 room, chair and table added for atmosphere
2. Blackboard against one wall.
3. Door to a 5x5 room, bookcase against one wall. Bookcase has books which can be taken and interracted with (can be read)
4. Door exits from 10x10 room to a simple 30x30 environment (to showcase what kind of scenes players might encounter, and get them to understand to what level the graphics are done here)


Character Functionality/Content:

1. Ability to talk to local characters in local area (not broadcast to game, nor yell or anything else which will cause communication outside of the Newbie area)
2. Simple movement within environment, cannot cross borders which would lead out of the 30x30 space allotment
3. Cannot give items
4. Cannot drop items
5. Items on their possession would disintegrate/decay upon logoff.
6. Can be disconnected by admin (for abuse, or insulting names), can be muted (for using language unappropriate to others), can be banned (prevented from logging into the room)


Descriptions of item uses (not an exhaustive list, only to get your thoughts going, as many many things can be done):

30x30 environment: Contains the 10x10 room, the 5x5 room, and anything else the game masters wish to have there. The 30x30 environment has borders that players cannot cross. However, it can be seen that there is ‘more to be seen, beyond the barrier’.

10x10 room: Contains chair (optional), table (optional), Blackboard (essential, not optional). Has simple cutout doorway to the 5x5 library room. Has simple cutout doorway into the 30x30 environment.


5x5 room: Library. Contains bookcase. Has no exits, except back to the 10x10 room.

Table/Chair: Mainly ornamental. Used to give a feeling of the ‘administrative purpose’ of the whole environment.

Blackboard: Simple style ‘classroom chalkboard’ that one may see anywhere in a school. May or may not have simple chalk scribbling on it, for effect. Has three 8x11 pieces of paper on it, so to speak.

Paper#1: Rejected name list. Simple sequential list (new entries appended to the bottom), which shows bad name attempts, and may even show the player’s name that is reading it. Has option to download list as a text file, so they can quickly search it for their name, to see if it is there. Player knows to delete that character, and try again.

Paper#2: Awaiting Story Response. Questions have been sent to the players email address, and a response from the player has not yet been received. Denotes they should check their email, or re-request the questions to be sent (in cases of accidental spam deletion, or any number of cases where the Illarion Team’s email might have been misdirected or not delivered).

Paper#3: Newly Accepted Players. Players who have been accepted, and may now log into the full game. Optionally, there may be a button for them to press, where it takes them to the ‘Real Illarion World’, and graphics may be added, so people can see a new person has made it into the game (shimmering light, hand of god reaching and plucking them from the room, etc etc).

((May not be necessary, because could be made a function of the login to the Newbie environment. Person attempts to log in, gets message that their character has been accepted, and to please log out and log into the real game interface.. or, however it’s currently handled now))

Possible Advantages:

1. Gives place for people that are completely new to the game to get more information about the game (via the library).

2. Gives place for new people to see what the progress is for acceptance into the real game.

3. Place to chat with others, who are still awaiting approval. Would allow them to bug their fellow want-to-be’s, and let them know they aren’t the only one going through the waiting period. Would also allow them to ask questions there, and not in the forum, and not email and PM admins/gamemasters, with repeated requests, as someone there likely already knows the answer and can answer it before a player/gamemaster gets involved.


4. Bookcase can be filled with ‘books’, which contain FAQ’s, tips, history, sitemap to the website, rules, where to find what on the website, warnings of unacceptable behavior... any number of things.... the gamemasters and admins would know better what kind of information requests are consistently being asked for, and what would be best to be in the bookcase, which would relieve others of having to constantly answer the same questions.

(Yes, this may repeat what is already on illarion.org, however, that just means it would be a simple copy/paste into the book object, I would assume. And it would also give a better feeling to the person reading it, as it would be picking up books, and not navigating a site they may not be familiar with)

5. Lets new and awaiting players have a definitive and definite place to check for progress on their application attempt. They can see recent rejections and approvals, and know if they should continue to wait, or if they need to re-apply. No more need to send many messages in the forums, and ask nebulous questions in an attempt to be diplomatic and patient, when a portion of them would prefer to ask outright what their status is (which, I have seen such requests in the forum be met with undue hostility, given the current environment... not from all, but some have been downright rude)

6. By having control over who can talk, and possibly by adding a “Report Abuse” icon somewhere, rude or abusive people can be silenced or ejected from the room, should their language, or what they talk about, be inappropriate to good conduct.

7. With the ability to only pick up books, and the books being the only thing in existence there, and not able to put them down.. there’s no way for them to ‘spam give’ on character a thousand things.. nor for them to put them on the ground in ‘obscene artwork’ ways (body parts, cusswords, etc)


Possible Disadvantages/Exploits:

1. Spammers (setting up auto program for constantly saying the same thing over and over again.. advertising websites.. slamming the game (which they must not know a lot about, since they aren’t in yet)

2. People just hanging out in the newbie area. Not really damaging of anything, unless this takes up more bandwidth than I’d think. However, this can be eliminated by making a 30 min limit, before they are auto-logged-off... this way, they do their thing, read a bit, and leave.

3. Getting bad advice or tips on how to exploit the game, from bad people in the room. Can be cured by having either a readable banner object, which states “All characters/players in this room are not yet accepted into the game, and are likely to have absolutely no in-game knowledge or advice to give which is in any way reliable.” (obviously, that can be tweaked to what would convey the message more expediently).

4. It may get to the point that there are hundreds of people logged into this area, and could present ‘environmental clutter’. Could be cured by having a delimiter of seeing only the last 10 people who logged in before them, and the next 10 people who log on after them, and then that list shifts, as the ‘longest logged on newbie’ logs off... shows next recent person who logged in..

Things I can’t account for:

1. Server load. Not knowing the game’s computer/server makeup, nor load for normal playing environment, I can’t begin to imagine how little or how much effect something like this would have.

2. Unforseen design difficulties. I’m not a designer or programmer for the game, so I don’t know how difficult or simple the process is, and can only present this set of ideas in a manner of theory. I have no tips or advice or preplanned method to carry this idea out, in code or graphics.

3. Inability/Incapability/Indifference or Interface/Interlinking problems.
I may or may not be able to motivate people to do or try this idea.
I can’t help with the functions between the existing email system and the game system, so don’t know how easy/difficult it would be to link functions which would power the Blackboard’s contents, especially when I don’t know the details of what is already in place and being used.
I can’t make this idea sound good enough, if nobody wishes to see it happen (either via apathy, status quo desirability, unwillingness to give it a try and see how much benefit there is in the short and long term).


Benefits to Existing Players and Staff:

Seperation of newbie chatter, attempting to constantly check for status of their application attempt.

Newly accepted characters will have a good idea of what kind of place they’re going into, as they will have already seen some artwork, and had minor practice with knowing how to pick something up, and move around... hence, less interface questions in the middle of In Character situations

Forums will likely have a dramatic decrease of ‘account spam’, as there is a clear method of checking on account progress, and a long drawn out conversation on the topic can be reduced to a one line reply of “Log into Limbo.. You can see your progress there.”

Benefits to New Players (Pending acceptance):

Newbies will be able to make sure their system can handle the graphics, and if they need to upgrade equipment, drivers, or any number of things, to see if their computer or internet connection can handle being connected to the game.

Newbies will have a definite and concrete method for checking progess on their status, and no longer have the feeling of being ‘in Limbo’ (no pun intended), and having to feel guilty about asking questions on the forum, when they see the normal hostility that that line of questioning receives.

Newbies will have a place to talk to others in their situation, and can take solace that ‘they aren’t the only one waiting’.. and they might even get to see the sheer number of new player attempts, and finally understand the monumental task that the game admins face, and that it’s not just a matter of going through a few applications a day, when they might receive hundreds
(may require the 30x30 area be expanded... or, for a limit in how many characters can be seen at one time, by one person.... perhaps limit it to each person can only see twenty other people at a time, to keep the clutter down)



I hope this finally shows the advantages and disadvantages, at least as *I* see them. Again, not having logged into the game, nor been tasked as a game master or story teller, I can only present ideas with my limited understanding of how this game works, and how other games I have played could have used something like this, or had similar qualities which could be combined into a construct to benefit THIS game.

As long as it’s programmed and constructed in a way as to not interact with the existing playerbase (of people who have been accepted into the roleplaying environment), I don’t see how an existing player can complain about something like this... other than perhaps being upset that something like this didn’t exist during their initial attempts to get into the game, and that they feel others should have as difficult and long a wait as they did, and that it shouldn’t be any easier for anyone else... if that last point is the case, then please give your computer away to someone else... that object was an evolution of technology, and if people in the past didn’t have it, then you shouldn’t either (at least by your logic).


Okay.... now that I have presented this detailed explanation of the environment, the advantages and drawbacks, please comment on them. If there are disadvantages that I don’t know about, please list them either in regard to what I have already said, or as something that I didn’t consider (or couldn’t have known about, given my ‘outsider view’ on the whole matter).

And, important: This is the base idea. It can evolve.. it can progress.... it can turn into something more than I have presented, so far.. it can be a tool the admins use, should they create it, and find that they wish other features or tools be involved in it, to either lessen their load, or try out things on a bunch of people who wouldn’t really be affected by the test, were they to try it in the real game (beta testing new monsters, new eq, new items, new processes/skills/etc)

Trager Maximoff

*arches eyebrow*

Um... is nobody reading this thread, anymore? Or is the lack of response due to it being a weekend? Or.... are people fed up with me mentioning "this crap"?

K... will wait a couple days, see what happens, if anything... and if there's no response in a few days, will drop the matter, and never mention it again.

Trager Maximoff.

Hello,

I am pleased to see such a worked out proposal.
So I will throw some remarks of me in.

Some (acutally most) of the features of this room are technical impossible right now.
But thats not the mainpoint why I (only me) do not really like a Newbie Area for Illarion.

I dont think the GameMasters of Illarion should not be (ab)used to monitor a "Newbie Chatroom", its too much time- and personalconsuming.
And my personal fear, what I have mentioned above, would still be present.

I dont want to lock 'Shiv'nar tel Uhr' in the same room as 'Megal33tkilla'.
I am too much afraid to lose Shiv'nar.

Currently the only thing that could scare a roleplayer away are the boards or the long time when he waits to play.
Someone who is really looking for such a game will endure this time, and I think the boards show exatcly that this Game concentrates on roleplaying.

But a Newbie Area would be a totaly different thing.
We cannot check someones abilities before he logs in there, so insults, unfitting behavior might happen there.
Because a Gamemaster is not always present we cannot "protect" the new players that want another gaming experience than Tibia/Runescape/ect.

Understood... then.. technical issues aside, if the ability to talk were removed, and the ability to see other people's character names in there (so Shivnar doesn't see masterki11er43 as a character name), how much would that increase the appeal of the concept, if all other things were present?

Trager wrote:Understood... then.. technical issues aside, if the ability to talk were removed, and the ability to see other people's character names in there (so Shivnar doesn't see masterki11er43 as a character name), how much would that increase the appeal of the concept, if all other things were present?

By the way, am attempting to slowly eliminate the bad points, until only the good points remain... so, as long as it's not bad for anyone's nerves, I will go ahead and take it point by point, until the idea is boiled down into something acceptable by everyone.

Trager

Oooookay.... will assume, by attrition, I should just let this drop... so.. I am.. don't worry.. won't mention it again.

Just because people do not post replies, does not mean it is being thought about and considered.

Eh.. ignore that post... was having a bad day, and felt 'needy' or something...