Illarion.org

I know you're all tired of hearing about the skills arguement, but just listen to me before you call me a 'powergamer' or 'some fool who wants to be a master in some craft in a day.'

I understand the reason why the difficulty of skill raising was raised. What Serpardum said, "no more master blacksmiths in a day" still holds true to me. However, it's almost impossible for a newbie to become good at more than talking to people these days. Blacksmithing, carpentry, peasantry, etc. takes time and money which one may not have. Even fishing, you'll drop the pole more times than you'll catch fish. How is one to make a decent living without killing 1,000 trolls after spending a year chopping up pigs in the fields? You tell me...even I barely made it, until I got into fishing (the time before you dropped poles into the water).

Have you ever played a Final Fantasy game? On average, it takes a player about 80 hours to become a full fledged master at every skill. Now I'm not saying it should be the same for Illarion, but it shouldn't take a year to become good at only one skill...I spend more time skill raising than roleplaying because I want to be decent at something. Skills are sometimes incorporated into an actual role of a character. You don't want a dwarf known as 'Bobathan the blacksmith' selling you shoddy items, but giving up on his role because it takes too long to peform decently.

I'm not one of those wankers that go in demon caves with expert friends and a hefty supply of vases so I can raise my fighting skills quickly. I take it slow, one at a time, fighting some pigs, zombies, scorpions and the occasional orc...but it's to the point where I don't want to roleplay as an assassin anymore because it's all I do on my off time...yet I still suck at it (unless I bring out the awesome staff made by Muten ) It's getting to the point where I have to live another life outside of my own just so I can be progressive in something. I, like many other people, don't have TIME to live another life. I'm 15, I go to high school, I have loads of accounting and core class homework every night. It's also a game on the internet, and most people that play this don't own their very own internet system and computer; they use their parents or relatives, whom don't let them on any old time of the day. It's easier to access Final Fantasy, because you don't have to tie up a phone line while you're playing; and connection is never lost. Yet it STILL takes longer on here to advance. I tried my hand at carpentry, but, apparently, 250 hand made items isn't enough to figure out how to make another piece of wood beyond a staff that looks like an old piece of KFC.

The 'realism' factor is sort of true...yet, also a bad excuse. When I fish in real life, I don't drop my pole into the water at all, let alone 5 times after I catch about 15 fish. (I don't do that anymore in the game, but it took quite a hell of a long time to get past that stage...)

Death. The worst part about any game, but even worse here...not only does death come easily to the commoner, but an astronomical amount of work can be lost in a surprisingly short amount of time. Blast...finally good at something, then you call a dwarf silly then WHAM...there goes your work. (Worse reasons for death have happened, believe me)

A GM posting would probably say 'then this game isn't for you.' But it MUST be for me, for I dread delving once again into the idiocy of Runescape and Tibia, where more namecalling, powergaming, etc. occurs than actual roleplaying. Let's face it, there are no actual free yet good games on the internet like this one. Welcome to Illarion. A colorful world full of roleplaying (and quality roleplayers) with different races, attitudes, monsters, and sorts of adventure. Beautiful graphics, good combat system, great music/sound, and all for the low low price of NOTHING. The skill raising difficulty was a good idea, but it was executed poorly, in my opinion. Remember, this is still just a GAME not another lifestyle. Games should be more fun than work.

If you have any replies, they would be appreciated.

really, i think blacksmithin and carpentry are the hardest skills, i only blacksmith when someone is selling materials because in order to be profecient in it you have to spend every waking hour just mining/blacksmithing for a few mesily gold. however there are such professions like farming/baking,tailoring,and a few others. if you do put forth the effort its really not that hard to make a decent living. i chopped wood till i had 12 ingots so i could buy seeds to become a farmer. and any nice person has a spare axe they would be willing to give out. its true games are supposed to be more fun then work but its also true you need to work to have fun because i enjoy being good at something you see what i mean?

well, i started around the time you did xerake. I don't find any of the skills hard to raise, and I also find it fun to raise it this hard. I have become an average smither and it takes a while, but so far, I've managed to get average at, peasantry, blacksmithing, herblore, fighting (if fighting skeletons is average) and im working on baking and reading. and you can ask anyone I still roleplay. Although i don't like having to make 1000+ daggers to get to the third set of smithing items, i wouldn't want the game changed to be easier. Xerake, think about this, this game won't leave, you will always have it, you have plenty of time to get good, and you can roleplay and work at the same time.

but bumbol not everyone has tons of time and their own computer like us. i run on a cable modem and i have my own custom computer, mostly parts from my brothers computers. but my point is not everyone has the connection/time that some people do. i do because ive made time for it my whole life, my whole family are gamers.

Wow your lucky Al! well, how does anyone get good at any game if they can't play on the comp often? besides, go to a internet cafe' or library.

generally they dont let someone download a 14meg game though.

Very well said Xerake.

I FULLY AGREE.

One option could be to have npcs in the game who are masters at the skills and you could pay them to learn the skills.

Time passes quicker in illarion than in RL, and that is why you drop/break things so quickly. But as for skill change...I think right now the rate of skills gained is just right, and for some skills there should be some possible raising for difficulty. Do you think it took Elaralith a few days or even a few weeks to become a master tailor? No it took many centuries of her long elven life (translated into months for RL). Xerake, I understand your frustration, but instead of concentrating all your efforts on raising your skills in a short amount of time, and becoming frustrated you should put skill gaining as one of your last priorities and just ROLEPLAY. When you do that, you will find that your skills will raise with time but you won't constantly be worried about them.
Good luck and have fun!

I understand what you're saying Elaralith, but I have played this character for over a year now (though I just recently gave him a board name). I DID get good in skills, but then death came easily after assuming I could take on skeletons after easily beating trolls. Now I'm almost a newbie all over again. At least the death issue can be fixed a bit...

As for the time passing thing, it would also make sense to get more fish if you went fishing. Getting 15 fish and dropping your pole 5 times doesn't seem very realistic...I understand the aim though. I know it takes months of work, but what about constant, full time work? Were I to make 400 wooden items yet not know anything else new in carpentry seems a bit absurd to me...

You have some good points though.

I forgot to say something else...it was clearly mentioned that skills shouldn't be raised in short periods of time by Xerake, but more progress should be made slowly rather than being stuck on one level of craftsmanship for a long time. I would have it where one new item at a time could be earned if you work long enough, so you don't get bored making the same old items over and over...that way, you get a psychological sense of progression, and won't feel the need to give up.

This coming from one evil mother too, heh.

Xerake I have a character that started after the skill change so I know how difficult it is for beginners. Having said that, you dont need much money to live in Trollsbane and you can roll play being a good blacksmith without being able to actually make anything. I play my new character far more than my older one as I find him more challenging. Try splitting the time you do have so a little goes towards work and some towards socialising. Oh and I totally agree with you about death being a bit too harsh. It can be very disheartening to finally get somewhere, after much time trying, only to be set back to square one by someone who doesn't like humans/lizards/elves/halflings/dwarves or whatever.

I think part of the problem is that the differences between levels are so vast. When I say levels, I mean levels in that someone who can defeat skeletons easily is a higher "level" than someone who can only fight ogres easily. If you work as hard as you say you are, you really are progressing, it's just nearly impossible to tell. I've noticed this mostly in Blacksmithing and fighting, though judging by the comments, Carpentry seems to be bad too. I think a good analogy is comparing Disney world to Orlando Studios. There may be a 45 minute wait for a ride at both places, but at Disney, the line is 100-200 yards long with signs, posters, and things to look at along the way. Universal on the other hand has a 45 minute wait to move 50 feet. The wait isn't any longer at Universal, it just feels longer. I'm sure this will change eventually. Someone suggested a few months ago (over the summer, I think) that the items be spread out more and Bror said it was good idea, it would just require a change in the type of database the server used so that more items could be added easier in the future. If you want to search for it, I'm sure it's on the archives at the proposal board somewhere. This will probably help you out a lot if it gets here anytime soon. I guess all we can do is hope . . .

Kragmar

I agree, the rate at which one gets new items to make in any craft should be faster and more frequent. Skill gaining rate stays the same, but in order for the game to retain the element of interest there needs to be more items to be made in the crafts and a faster rate at which new items can be made, and not such huge intervals before a large number of new items can be made. Basically, we should go for short intervals before one can make a new item, but have a lesser number of items appear after each interval.

elaralith you made your skill before the 10x system so why do you want to make newbies work hard? more business? i dunno but i have mastered peasantry and almost baking. its hard to master a skill but its not that hard to become good at it. (exept for blacksmithing and carpentry) and i have done this all with the 10x system. it is quite hard but i think carpentry should be made easier as we have a lack of carpenters around.

@Gro'bul Actually many of my current skills were mastered after the 10x system was implemented so I know its difficulty. And really do you think I care about "business" and the like? No, I play illarion for the roleplaying experience not the graphical ingots.

Another problem with skills. You show up in Illarion with a character who is (usually for a human) in his twenties. Yet you posses only a hammer, pants, and a shovel, and absolutely no skills. Wouldn't someone have at least some skills before arriving in Illarion? This way you could play your role (say a warrior) without having to worry about gaining skills before you start. It's not reasonable for someone who has been enrolled in a military school since he was 12 to show up in Illarion and run from flies.

@Korwin I would tend to agree.
I think that after the Vocation System is implemented, in the creation of a character a person should be able to choose his particular future vocation. That way when a character is born in illarion the appropriate minor skills can be applied according to the chosen vocation. So for a person who chose 'warrior' as the vocation for their character could arrive in illarion with some minimal warrior skills and items.

the new system is perfect, i actually think it should take longer. i would say that we should reset illarion and everyone gets a new character with no skills, but there ave been people that worked hard for skills they already have.

i actually think that it should be a wee bit harder to raise skills, but a wee better way to tell how good you are at them

look at runescape, the only good thing about it is there skill system. There are about a a few dozen people that can make a rune 2 hander, out of about 20,000 players. And even for mithril or addamantine it is rare to see someone that can make that kind of armor. If they didnt sell rune armor in stores then rune would be rare. i played runescape for about 7 months and my highest skill was at 58, and not once did i think that the skills are too hard to raise.

but i tihnk that playes should get a small certain amount of skill to handout out over as many skills as they want when they start, and that after you lose some skills after death, its easier to get back than raising skills regularly

yes i agree salathe the death thing really bugs me. today i killed about 150 pigs and my ranged weapons didnt move a single shade. it used to take me three or four shots to kill a zombie, now it takes six or seven after the orc attack. it is my fault that i died but ive used over 600 bolts shouldnt that raise my skill a little bit? and elaralith if you dont care about the business then why do you complain about how cheap tailored items are.

It is for the sake of realism and a better roleplaying atmosphere Gro'bul...I fear that you along with some others do not truly understand my intentions for my proposals. I see that the gap between the price of tailored items and other items is ridiculous, and that is why I proposed for the raising of the value of tailored items such as dresses which are fit for nobles.
If I cared for business I would not be a tailor in illarion. I would be something along the lines of a smithlarion/merchant as they make the most money right now in illarion...

Gro'bul wrote:we have a lack of carpenters around.

Aye and I like it like that!! Being a carpenter and all myself...and a good one at that hehe

But to 'X' the lizard that was a nicley worded and toned post (The very first one.) if you ask me. I cant realy comment on this as I have been playing long before the 10x skill rise. But Yeh archery....feeew, so many arrows, so so many and did I see the shade change...

There is one thing tho that does..well, bug me. This is a graphical RP game..with skills and character attributes....so, if you are not intrested or priorities your char skills as the last thing..why play, why not play a text based MUD.

@Drathe Play and get your skills up but do not worry insessantly about them to the extent of forgetting to RP. And do not worry about your skills so much so that you powergame to max them.

The problem for me is that I MUST get my skills up, because I didn't want to wait a whole year to be an archmage before being the most hated being in Trollsbane

Now I have some odd reputation for being a 'weakling.' God, how annoying...

Well, I started out, with no skills. (this was after the skill raise)

I am a master farmer. (i got 64 ingots from farming in the depot)
Im a 4rth or 5th stage blacksmith
i'm a 3rd stage carpenter
I'm a pretty darn good fighter if you ask me..(not meaning to brag)
and, last but not least, im a master herb lore, lumberjacking, and mining.

So, dont start complaining that you cant get skill. Because you can! I proved it.

This was only implemented because morons started to ruin everything because they started to smith thousand's of ore a day, carpenter thousand's or wood a day, fish hundreds of fish a day...etc This really pissed me off. Now it is being encouranged to do such a thing, since it is so harder, in my opinion.

There should be a certain extent when you become the best fighter or the best mage you die under the stress of your power or strength. It should be a random factor. And the skills should be limited to a certain extent also. so no one can be the hightest and would improve competition. IF AND ONLY IF THE THE OLD WAYS ARE BROUGHT BACK.

Being as old ( or older ) Than Drathe playing this game ( over two and a half years now. Best years of my life ^_^ ) I have found out MANY things. Like for say Grobul! When you created your character what did you put his dex at? That would effect how well you shoot arrows and such. NOT just the skill system. Even if it WAS maxed it DOES take a while. Also hitting nothing but mummies isnt going to do it GO AFTER SKELES! Demons! Rots! Those will raise your marksmanship cause your trying to run away while shooting them! As for the other skills. I have started a new character AFTER the new skill system was in place. *laughs* IT ALL boils down to this. You can gain skills only if you know WHAT to make and when. PERIOD. IF i had say.... 3 hours per day to work on ONE skill it would take me 2-3 days to master that skill... ( I have played WWAAYYYY to long Not that that is a bad thing Hahaha ) Except maybe carpentry..thats ALWAYS been hard to me It does take a LITTLE powergaming BUT when youre done with that its time to have fun! Also remember people are normally REALLY nice. So you could always get some food or a FEW extra potions in your time of need

( Dont bash me for my spelling or gramar mistakes. ITs late im tired and i wanted to write this Tell me what you think )

Kringin wrote:This was only implemented because morons started to ruin everything because they started to smith thousand's of ore a day, carpenter thousand's or wood a day, fish hundreds of fish a day...etc This really pissed me off. Now it is being encouranged to do such a thing, since it is so harder, in my opinion.

I agree, It just encourages powergaming because the skills are WAY too hard. So in a way you HAVE to powergame.

[/quote]There should be a certain extent when you become the best fighter or the best mage you die under the stress of your power or strength. It should be a random factor. [/quote]
No Way ! !

If it were up to me, and it isn't, I would make everything but fighting a bit easier. You shouldn't be a seasoned pro at magic or a man slayer in a week...

this is true, fighting should be harder, but, dont you gain experience by how much damage you take from the enemy? couldnt you get more exp by killing a pig in one shot then killing a demon in 50? depending on how much health they have of course.

Experience? There is no such thing as experience in Illarion.

It is a skill based game. You gain skill, not experience.