The Dark element Revisited

[Charlotte-ate-wilbur]

The Ars Magicka concept honestly seems great but I remain adamant that it is missing a very key theme of Illarion's lore.

Spoilers ahead

To put it into contrast the five elder gods were fighting one single powerhouse of a deity that was the Black Prince Madrook Na'han. These five elder gods had to raise twelve mortals to the power of Godhood on top of armies of heros of the time to face down the threat that was this deity and his armies. This wasn't some Witch King or some low scale threat, this is something so great that it endangered everything, including the Elder gods themselves. This cannot be lost on the grand scheme as the darkness cannot be truly destroyed it moves on, lingers, and changes form. When Moshran defeated the Black Prince and fell to the hatred for his companions who would not aid him as he lay wounded, instead they celebrated Madrook's defeat and left Moshran. Moshran was however aided by three mortals and he did what was forbidden of the twelve younger gods- He raised these mortals to godhood. Moshran essentially has embodied that lingering dark force that cannot be destroyed and has become more akin to the Elder gods by raising mortals to power. What is this lingering dark force? If the five Elder gods are the five Elements then we are missing something crucial to the fabric of Illarion- The Dark Element.

Before the Ars Magicka concept is completed I implore those involved with it's development to take this seriously. I propose the addition of a dark element in the game to craft drow equipment and an expansion to the Ars magicka concept to accept the dark element, the effects of the dark magic skill can be oriented towards draining, Raising the dead or summoning creatures from beyond, or hexing (debuffing) targets.

Ps. To clarify I do not mean that Moshran is now an unstoppable force, it is that he embodies that unkillable dark element. If Moshran falls, evil will come in the shape of another. Evil is ever persistent and ever changing, without it there's no other side of the coin after all.

[Charlotte-ate-wilbur]

Link to the Ars Magicka concept

https://illarion.org/~estralis/Ars_magica_v2.10.pdf

[HolyKnight]

I would be in support of this addition, it seems to fit the lore quite well.

[Vern Kron]

I disagree with the idea of adding a 'dark' element.

My reasons for this are both lore based, and technically based.

1) Thus far, everyone who seems to have had interaction with this 'dark' has lost their minds. Moshran, who is a god, is presented as a murderous vengeful god. You can claim that he isn't mad, but being snubbed for fame, even on a global scale, doesn't really warrant this behavior.
2) Moshran is also not 'wholly evil'. None of the gods are really described to be fully good or evil.
3) The spell effects you have listed out are currently categorized as spells under different elements, and adding a new 'base element' would require the creation of MANY new spells and effects.
4) There is no 'light' element. At best, we have 'spirit', but that is more the idea of 'sentience' it seems than 'light/goodness'.
5) Such a force, when interacted with by a mortal, would only be appropriate to result in actual anti-social roleplay behavior, or actual death. If not that, then it would end up 'marking' such a being. The only logical path forward on this would be division, and eventually, war. The being you are referencing as this 'eternal presence' is a being that is described as being multi-planar (like the elder gods), and seeks to wholly consume and devour the plane into a place of desolation/destruction. While we can certainly roleplay characters in isolation like this, it cannot/shouldn't function in the long term, because what that roleplay suggests is that they are more powerful than Moshran, a god.


Also, nothing currently prevents your character from acting in an evil way, or serving darkness, or what have you. It just doesn't need to be a part of the foundational blocks of the world and technical side of Illarion.

[Jupiter]

Are you missing certain effects in the ars magica? Then, you should try to find how they could fit in the existing framework, rather than adding a new element. I see no need to change the lore in such a fundamental way. From the top of my head, I remember to have entcountered at least four theories that try to explain evil/corruption within Illarion's lore. Just as in real life, this is a central philosophical and theological issue. It would belittle this question, and the characters who thought about it , if we were just to throw in a new element for explanation ("He is evil, because he has a lot of the dark element in him!").

Again, if we you want to porpose changes to the ars magica effects, it is best to do that without changing the core of Illarion's lore. These are different issues that shouldn't be mingled.

[Charlotte-ate-wilbur]

Illarion was always supposed to be a game that offered the freedom of expression for your character, similar to D&D Illarion has taken many high fantasy concepts and incorporated them into it's own framework.

The fact is any theme or idea can be used to promote anti-social roleplay behavior, as in all honesty I've seen just as much anti-social roleplay behavior coming from long standing 'good' guys. Anti-social interactions offer a moral complexity that you cannot have without it. No one can be truly and completely anti-social in Illarion, it will not work for them.

The other fact is this Dark element has and might still be in the game. It was part of a hidden quest that was not really open to other characters. A character had already discovered it's existence. So it's already in the lore whether you know about it or not, just because it's not listed on the home page does not mean it never happened.

The problem with Illarion's freedom of expression is it's limits. The current state of the game does not reflect this freedom of expression. The vbu has wiped any possibility of playing a character with any measure of moral complexity, because as soon as they even say or do something remotely off, hunting season is declared and the armies of cheessy do-gooders with sometimes no reason to get involved storm every corner of the continent. Other times you'll have big personalities push people into this hunting season and the chars hunted are not really that 'evil'.

I'm genuinely sick of the counter-argument of 'people will act anti-socially with this concept or theme' or 'people will break the rules if evil features come around.' This is not healthy to Illarion's game environment as there are many players who do not act in this fashion and honestly it's quite insulting to hear it time and again when I make a proposal to somehow add content to the game that isn't purely divine and holy.

What was lord of the rings without Sauron and Mordor? What was a wrinkle in time without Camazotz? WTF is Illarion without some tangible features that will make me feel I'm not playing a paladin simulator. According to the Ars magicka concept the magic is connected to the elements of the five elder gods. This makes magic divine, everything is divine. Stop it.

Illarion is not Paladin Simulator or Witch Hunt. It's about time development stops treating it that way.

Edit: I would like to add that many other fantasy games have illegal magicks that practiced within certain town limits alert the guard and cause consequences for the character. There is absolutely no reason why the towns ingame cannot make this form of magic illegal if it gets implemented.

[Charlotte-ate-wilbur]

My point here is that players should feel that there is moral complexity in the game, they should feel that they can fall to darkness and have actual fun with it and leave room for possible redemption. We should feel and see the dark things from the lore, they should be tangible in the game, more so than they are.

It is not the Gm's responsibility to set up every villain or plot. Imagine the pressure on one person to create plots for all the players, because that's what's happening.

If it's possible and fun to do these things people would have done them. The fact is the game design has purposefully made evil 'not fun' and it's kinda old now isn't it?


I don't understand why it's beyond comprehension that you can't have Divine things without the Unholy.

There is no heads without tails, no black without white.

Stop bleaching everything

[Felbion Lijawyn]

The arcane magic and by extension the elements and mana in Illarion have always been neutral and balanced in themselves in the way that nature just is, it doesn't have a moral value. Adding a dark or evil element does not fit within established lore. Magic is a tool and how you use it is up to your character. We don't need good or evil attributed to specific elements. Even with the elements we have that are linked to the elder gods they do not share their god's "character" in any way. On top of this, Ars Magicka aims to set very clear boundaries between the different magic systems. For this reason the concept currently doesn't have healing magic for mages as this is supposed to be reserved for priests. This happened despite some protests from mage players early on but I believe the decision is final. Adding an element that is this closely related to and dependent upon a specific god would muddle the mage and priest magics again.

[Charlotte-ate-wilbur]

Dark does not necessarily mean evil. It means an absence of light. Before anyone can say there is no 'light' element, Fire... it's fire. Like two poles of a magnet there's light and dark, heat and cold, life and death, movement vs stiillness. What's interesting and sadly never explored is the title of Black Prince certainly implies some sort of lineage.
I've been working on building ideas along with Po Eli, so sit tight for more.

Edit-All of the Gods have some sort of afterlife for their followers but there is no real deity that serves as an opposition to that. Eventually there must be a cessation of movement, an inevitable slide into pure serene oblivion. Cherga sort of offers this idea, but really she still offers an afterlife of service (which is an abhorrent insult to life, so technically any deity that has an afterlife for their followers is evil, I stand by that. Life after death renders your life meaningless)

I did originally use the term 'evil' that it always changes shape. The concept of a driving 'dark' force has been evolving since yesterday.