Illarion.org

It has come up more then one time how it is unfair outlaws do not get magical gems and now in the other Evie made about bringing back the town leader npcs

Player Governments/ Evil town
http://illarion.org/community/forums/po ... =1&t=40838

Do we really need such gems in game, do they really add to the game experience for the better to me it seems to be a waste and not really needed.

Benefits for removal of the magical gems.

1. The town leaders (( NPCS )) can be removed totally, letting towns be run solely by players or have no rules at all, they will no longer be needed to distribute the gems.

2. Would also remove the taxes being collected that many complained about early in the vbu and some still do now.

3. Makes it even for all players, allowing for no special treatment if you live in a town or are an outlaw.

4. Makes it balanced to the non fighters of the game who now pay taxes for gems that they can not use only sell or horde up.

5. Would the game more balanced and return the game to the original stat based system where no one has an edge and where new players will not always be weaker against veteran players who played since vbu start


Reason to keep the gems in game.

!. Creates a reason for people to join a town.

2. Creates a money sink monthly.

3. allows for a Gm to hold a high position in town in case of need. (( Don, archmage, queen.))

4. Acts a reward for those in a town who pay their taxes to get an edge in game.

Thank you for opening this. For an alterning proposal which is not just as radical as wiping all gems, scroll down.

Raina Narethil wrote: 1. Creates a reason for people to join a town.

This seemed to be the core of the matter in many of the other complaints. Characters should join a town (or not!) based on their roleplay reasons, not because they get gems. I don't really see this as a benefit point, rather a neutral one.

Raina Narethil wrote:2. Creates a money sink monthly.

It does. However, since the crafting system will be reworked, this might become more and more obsolete. In addition, hording money does not really hve any benefits (except buying gems at auctions!), so no gems, no hoarding money. The tax of 1% is rather low and imho has no game breaking effect for some people like the 5% used to have.

Raina Narethil wrote:3. allows for a GM to hold a high position in town in case of need. (( Don, archmage, queen.))

GMs only play the town leaders as characters, by doing so, become part of the world. That entails the possibility of being overthrown. There are two roles a GM plays, really.
1.) A neutral enforcer of game laws and a keeper of peace --> The 'classic' GM role where the GM is himself as a person and observes the gameplay
2.) The GM playing a character
This can be a villain, a town leader, etc. In that position, the GM has superior powers to players (stats, summoning abilities, etc.), but should decide beforehand how far they go. He, so to say, becomes an elevated entity within the physical boundaries of the game world. This entails being hard to be disposed, but it's not impossible. Mind that the GM char is killed in such occasions, it's not aimed at the GM as a person.

Playing town rulers fall under point 2. And there is a possibility to have this without having to elevate players. I would like to reiterate the possibilities quests like 'Baron Hastings' in Cadomyr hold. If the GM recognized a change in will of his players, he (or she, I'm not good at gendering, sorry) can always create an elevated adversary of the elevated GM character already in place and have players flock behind the old or the new ruler. Result: Inter- or cross-faction struggle, lots of RP, and no need to change the underlying principles of the game (GM driven) or the towns (ruler has last word, and is a GM) whatsoever.

Raina Narethil wrote:4. Acts a reward for those in a town who pay their taxes to get an edge in game.

See point 1.

*****************

Alteration of the proposal to wipe gems: Cap gems at level 3. 36% is the maximum bonus for everyone. With this, you still get some of the gem benefits, which are

1.) RP possibilities deriving from the 'large gems' and the missing diamond
2.) Possibility to grow your character after having reached the highest fighting levels
3.) Chance for crafters, others who do not need gems to gain some money from selling their gems
4.) Some leverage for town rulers. (Again, this does NOT mean town rulers can't change, see point 3 above!)
5.) Money sink (which is partly legit.)

but you don't totally imbalance the whole game and make it impossible for new characters to catch up. Also, outlaws should be able to "procure" everything to level 3 gems as they are not totally rare. At the moment, nobody sells outlaws any gems, because there is no realistic gem level cap for anyone. Nobody has reached, say, 10 sets of level 10 gems. But some people will have gotten 6 or more sets of level 3 gems and thus, they would be willing to part with them.
There is a benefit for guilds, too: They can store gems and give them to new members, making it possible for new characters to rise faster. --> One of the ultimate game designs of VBU was cooperative gameplay, yet having gems go up to level 10 favors single, almost unbeatable warriors once again. Capping gems way before would help encourage cooperation.


I'd warmly welcome comments to my alteration proposal especially, since I personally can not see it having any drawbacks for the game. (But that might be because I don't see them, not because all I write is perfect. )

Me on the very same proposal in a different threat wrote:Some very rough theoretical numbers, just for fun:

A character of level 2 rank receives ~200 gems per irl year in average from taxes and donations, taken from Banduks graph.
A Level 6 (the average character) would receive 200*140%=280 gems per year in average.

Assuming the per capita donation rate remains the same:

Average required activity for a single set of gems:

• 1 gem - 1.521 days
  
  Tier 1 (6 gems, 12% bonus) - 1 week
  Tier 2 (18 gems, 24% bonus) - 3 weeks
  Tier 3 (54 gems, 36% bonus) - 10 weeks or 2.3 months
  Tier 4 (162 gems, 48% bonus) - 7 months
  Tier 5 (486 gems, 60% bonus) - 20 months or 1.7 years
  Tier 6 (1458 gems, 72% bonus) - 5.2 years
  Tier 7 (4374 gems, 84% bonus) - 15.6 years
  Tier 8 (13122 gems, 96% bonus) - 46.8 years
  Tier 9 (39366 gems, 108% bonus) - 140 years
  Tier 10 (118098 gems, 120% bonus) - 421 years

Gem output of course fluctuates with the donations happening in the faction, as one can see in the graph.

But one also can gain gems and pure elements by gathering with a 1/4000 (might actually be half that, not too sure) chance for each gathering action. Should someone continuously grind resources at a pace of 1 action every 3 seconds (very pessimistic for mining on pauldron, optimistic for gathering fruit in Cadomyrs orchard) statistically every 3 hours and 20 minutes a gem and pure element would be yielded.

How is 10 weeks of activity per maxed set supposed to be

2.) Possibility to grow your character after having reached the highest fighting levels

?
I suspect with setting the max level this low most new fighter characters would end up having sufficient maxed sets before even having maxed out their combat skills. Speaking from what I needed to get my characters skills up, two hours per day would not be close enough to get maxed combat skills before having maxed sets in weapon and all armour parts important.

Asides from having something to work towards the thing I'd personally miss the most would be gold having a 'hard' countervalue of something desired by everyone interested in outfitting warriors. I'd miss the economical competition between factions and the need to work for raising the gem output to bolster ones factions combat ability or wealth. Why bother to continuously contribute to your factions gem income when donating one to two thousand gold gets you where you need to be? Why bother with raising money altogether?

Gems are almost broken. My maxed char with the best potions possible to make and 36% gemmed lv 100 perfect weapon, cannot even harm most Cadomyrian warriors. I also have full sets in all the other armor, all rank 2s and 3s and one rank 4.

If theres talk of balancing the gem sets in regards to skilling speed. Let me remind you that Cadomyr gets rank 3-4 to even rank 6 gems almost every month because of goldsmith powergamers... You'll be able to easily surpass any warrior from the other factions within 6 months of getting gems like that.

Of course people are going to defend this style of play, because it's working quite well for them.

I think gems are fine.. just not how they are distributed.

People should work for these uber items, not just get to sit on their arses and collect them every week.

Mephistopheles wrote:Gems are almost broken. My maxed char with the best potions possible to make and 36% gemmed lv 100 perfect weapon, cannot even harm most Cadomyrian warriors. I also have full sets in all the other armor, all rank 2s and 3s and one rank 4.

If theres talk of balancing the gem sets in regards to skilling speed. Let me remind you that Cadomyr gets rank 3-4 to even rank 6 gems almost every month because of goldsmith powergamers... You'll be able to easily surpass any warrior from the other factions within 6 months of getting gems like that.

Of course people are going to defend this style of play, because it's working quite well for them.

Please keep the discussion constructive. There is no need for the last sentence. Thank you.

Right now goldsmithing is neglectable in regards of the Cadomyrian income, there are no more active goldsmith powergamers left that I know of. What 'does' weight into the recent continuation of the old trend of Cados higher gem output is the huge farming spot for high level warriors over at Letma. While gem output from Cadomyr remains higher than that of other settlements (about 10-20%), Mephys statement on its amount is vastly exaggerated.

Raina Narethil wrote:
Benefits for removal of the magical gems.

1. The town leaders (( NPCS )) can be removed totally, letting towns be run solely by players or have no rules at all, they will no longer be needed to distribute the gems.

2. Would also remove the taxes being collected that many complained about early in the vbu and some still do now.

3. Makes it even for all players, allowing for no special treatment if you live in a town or are an outlaw.

4. Makes it balanced to the non fighters of the game who now pay taxes for gems that they can not use only sell or horde up.

5. Would the game more balanced and return the game to the original stat based system where no one has an edge and where new players will not always be weaker against veteran players who played since vbu start

1. Removing town leaders is a weak idea. It would increase politics leaded by players and second option without any town policy game will be boring.
2. Removing taxes is second weak idea. Rather we should make them useful for new buildings projects. I hope after house-system all official building will also need repairs.
3. I can agree with this. Please notice that if someone has higher rank gets more gems, but those ranks are only for few players.
4. Yes gems are useless for crafters/workers.
5. Currently if new player would notice how many those who play from start of vbu have gems he will dissapoint and leave.

I agree with removing gems, but with changes in policy of how are towns structures of ranks look I don't.

After removing gems should show up a system what rewards these who have higher ranks, without making them better warriors. I have invented a simple system for my guild society of farmers, but it can't be added to game, cause it's not possible to place new buildings/tools/depots in wilderness.

System looks like this: You need a rank to rent room. Higher to buy room. And higher to build house and rent or sell rooms. When you log off from game in room you get after return small bonus to one of attribute. This idea would make from those who have higher ranks kind a feudal lords without making them uber warriors.

(Read more here: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=40817)

Disable gems for a couple of months and see what happens. Come on, do it. You devs know you want to