Illarion.org

Posted: **Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:52 am**

The resent glassblowing post makes me post this.
The trouble with all crafts , as I see them, are...
1) They all happen far too quickly. It takes time to make anything. If you want any item to have value, time, much time should be needed to make it. Even a simple plate should take time to make. If you doubt this, pull out your pocket knife and grab a piece of wood and make one.
2) All resources weight too little. I am as strong as most, but unless the size of stones or logs are very small, there is no way I could carry even a quarter of what an average strength player can carry.
3) All items need to deteriorate. Every time an item is used, it should lose some quality. Every time an item is repaired, it should only be able to be repaired to one level of condition lower than it was before. In this way, all items need to be replaced over time.
4) Some balancing of the value of items at the town trader's needs to be adjusted. The items that take the most time, the most resources, the most different skills, to make should cost the most. And, the most coveted items should require the most effort, skills and resources to make.
5) Every craftsman should be able to make any tool needed for their craft. Maybe not a good one, but one they can work with for a short period of time. If they want a better one, then they would also need to learn the skill that makes their tool, or do some trading. A farmer should be able to make something that will cut down their grain. It may wear out quickly, and leave lots of seed on the ground, but they can make do until they can afford better, or learn how to make a better one.
6) Finally, We need more reasons to use the more finely crafted items. Take clothing, it can be considered a light armor. But no matter it's quality, it's value, it is still armor class 0. A fine 5 gold robe should have a higher armor class than a sack cloth gray shirt. A lantern should put out much more light and last much longer than a torch. An item of any type, should have more quality, work better and last longer, if it was made by anyone, than one bought from the town traders ( that doesn't bear the name of the craftsman) This adds value to trading with others over buying from the town.
7) Some basic tools need to be added to Hemp Necktie and Jumajistan and the wilds. Maybe they should also be of lower quality, thus produce items of lower quality. Say an anvil that isn't flat. A baking oven with bricks missing, so it can't keep an even temperature. But have them all the same. Still a benefit to those that do live in town, but those that don't, can still be part of the economy.
Just a few thoughts. This game has become, and maybe always was more fighting centered, but a better crafting format would greatly improve the game. I can only smack so and so , so many times before he hates me, and I am completely bored.

Posted: **Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:47 am**

To expand on points 1 and 3,
If you want less pointless attacks, make it cost more.
If every time I used my weapon, it degraded a point, say each item has ten points before breaking, I could only use it 9 times without needing repair. If it was ever destroyed, any gems in it would also be lost. After each repair, it would then lose ten points of its level. Then, a 100 level, would be a 90, and then down the line. At some point, I will need to replace it. It may only be a level 40, so I will want to now, or when ever can be afforded. Now also add in the much longer crafting times. To make a level 100 weapon, it takes maybe 8 hours of time to build it. Not seconds or minutes, but game hours. Maybe you dont have that much time to play, it is fine. You can stop at any time, and restart on your next log-in. How much value does that very powerful item now have? How often will I use such a potent item? Can it be bought at the local trader market? Yes, but it only is half as good. Power and durability wise. This is how you bring parity to the crafting class, and reduce attacks by otherwise powerful characters.

Posted: **Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:40 pm**

* at the moment crafting is death --> due to the fact that things can be totally repaired all the time
* increasing producing times with possibility of stop sounds realy good - not sure if this is possible
* loss of mag gems sounds strange - not sure that is a good solution
* true, all things must deteriorate with use
* NPC´s only sell "low quality" tools (like at the moment)

* to make "high quality" tools you need a certain level of skill
* to make "high level" produkts you need "high quality" tools

Posted: **Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:37 pm**

With regards to deterioration of items and gem loss:

Personally, I'm all for items deteriorating and needing to be replaced. This is part of what made tradesman vital in the old client and kept some balance between fighters and crafters. I could see lowering item quality slowly over time with each repair for items that are craftable. Items that are not craftable by a character and are only found as quest items should be exempt from this process or the quests be made repeatable. Further, losing the socketed gems would be too much of a deterrent in my opinion. Those should land back in the bag for re-use maybe with some minor subtraction but not a total loss. That's too punitive and we would be back to worrying about our 4th best armor like in the old client and the good stuff never seeing the light of day.

So, with the exception of the gem loss and the non-craftable items, I'm all for it.

Posted: **Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:52 am**

I made a post here http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=40677 and Achae says it relates to this topic as well, so rather than moving it Ill just quote it here incase its better discussed in this kind of topic since it discusses a few points of crafting and MC:

Kamilar wrote:Skills have become a much larger focus than they were in the old client
On that note. In the old client there were lots of roads and forests between settlements free from monsters. This allowed you to play a non-fighting character better without being stuck to towns and portals. This is one of the things that made skilling more prominent, it being required to walk about the world outside of the towns "safe" zones. This is one thing that encourages powergaming.

Another point is that since we are split into three towns, and due to the gems and crafting tool distributions forced to split between them instead of gathering in one town like trollsbane in the past (That most players gathered in bane, I think proved that if you give the players the choice , they will move to a big central town with all tools, while few stay on more remote settlements like varshikar and tol vanima.).
This split, as well as high level dungeons being far away from towns, make it so that players have a harder time finding RP. What do they do then? They turn to the engine aspect and start power-gaming, in order to stay active. For some this becomes an obsession and they end up favoring it over RP, some do it as a past time while waiting for RP, and some end up growing so tired of the whole system that they leave the game. (A recent example was the p.o. Ashbell/Renoah).

Myself I enjoy the current MC system, and am one of those that have grown fond of grinding while I wait for RP to appear, though it can get a little too much.
I do however understand why those who complain do. If I had less time to spend on the game than I do I'd probably not be willing to put up with the engine-aspects of it, and if I was not so attached to the playerbase that I am, I'd end up like Renoah seeking out a more pen and paper esque roleplaying game.

To be a bit constructive though..
From what I understand, three towns are there to stay in hopes of a larger playerbase one day, so I won't try and suggest to remove that.
As to the MC. I like it better than the old system, but it's still a flawed concept as is. I'm not sure if it just needs to be worked on, or be changed. But I dont think the old system or the one now in its current state are the right ones yet for an RP focused game like ours. Still. In my opinion our system for it now is a step in the right direction compared to what was in the past.

I imagine safe walking paths between towns could be made via player events over the years to come, but even this wouldn't really solve the problem. Remember the peaceful woods south of bane stretching all the way to the harbor, and settlements like the farmers union? You had plenty of choices as a non-fighter back then, I didn't truly take up the mantle of a fighter character until post-vbu, and first then after months of being stuck in town growing tired of all the people leaving me by my lonesome cause they were going out doing whatever, and my character would've died immediately if she came with. Personally I've never been fond of the fighter-RP, duels, spars and such, but it's become somewhat of a must to wield a weapon in post-vbu illa.

So for players being so split. Maybe a system can be thought out, so players know where to go for RP? Like.. If there are 5 players online, and three are in the galmair safezone or within galmair itself, then a system that tracks this and lets players know that the "largest amount of non-afk characters are currently gathered in the vicinity of Galmair" so people atleast have a general idea of where to seek out RP? I dont know if this exact idea would be possible, but I assume people would get what Im getting at with that example.

I like how skilling is extended over a certain amount of time no matter if you RP or skill all day. However since the system favors those with most time to play, over those who have little, I see why those with little time are upset that we went away from the old system. The old system would still favor those with most time, but it wouldn't punish those with little time as hard as it currently does. However I think MC wouldn't be this much of an obsession if it was not as I mentioned more or less "required" to have a fighting skill to be able to participate in a lot of RP. Hell, most quests both GM made and player made are fighting-based. (Though I really enjoy quests like the ones lucy-p has been doing that are purely RP based!).

It's easy enough to be a crafter. You can gather food from trees, gather resource inside the safe zone, easily enough gain the skill level in crafts to make your own tools and be entirely self sufficient that way. That ignoring the fact that players literally throw free tools and stuff at new characters that show willingness to RP. Sure, you level a lot of skills in the process that you didn't necessarily intend to level, but that ain't bad as leveling is supposed to take time. (In this Im ignoring how you spend a lot more time gathering mats than crafting, since they intend to fix this with the big craft update by extending craft time and by doing so also how much xp each item you craft gives).
I think the bad thing is that you are basically forced to fight, 3 skills that raise your mc, to actively partake in much of the RP and events that goes on.

Maybe if fighting and crafting/gathering/etc mc was split into two different pools, so you had one for fighting/magic and one for any peaceful skilling? Yes this would end up with people "metagaming" switching between the two, but we already do that in a way by doing actions we know will reduce our MC (like melting at level 20 smithing) in order to lower our MC when no people are around to RP with. We would just need to find a balance to make up for this, so skilling wont necessarily become that much faster, like making the MC go up a slight bit faster but go down as slow as currently?

As for the high end dungeons I mentioned, Ive before talked about the option to have an attunement of sorts. Think of the quest made by Evie outside of Galmair, the cave with the lizards. There you reach a quest status that allows you to leave the small island in the end repeatedly. Now, imagine that system being activated through a questline in a high-end dungeon, which allows you to use a tool or similar to get a quick-transport there from a point that is near town. No need to make one back since portal books exist. This would decrease travel time (yes I know mage portals plan to do that but this is also a way), so that players would have more time on their hands to get stuff done and then also this would result in people returning to town faster and being away for less time. There already exists the portal pedestal by the runewick quest that teleports you around and youre stuck until you beat it or die (wonder..something? The name eludes me right now). I was told this could be scripted to serve the function of only allowing you to use it if you have a specific quest-status.
What I imagine is something like the defensors in akaltuts cave, once you get to say the point where you get the special reward(wont write it cause spoilers), you could also get an attunement to fast travel there through, maybe a pedestal in town by the bounty hunter? Youve already proven plenty of times by then that you are capable of walking there by yourself, but doing so makes you miss out on a lot of RP or waste a lot of time when theres no one to RP with and you dont have a lot of time to play.

No tl:dr, if youre in the proposal forum you should expect long texts :p
Anyways, thats all I have the energy to put down on paper right now. English is not my first language so some points may be unclear and Id be happy to clarify what exactly I meant by them. Im trying to be constructive here, not trying to upset anyone or insult anyones dev work. All this is just my opinion, Im not trying to state anything but technical stuff as facts.

And on a unique note for this topic, I agree on the detoriation. I too think that having items detoriate would be cool, though gems should return to your bag/inventory when they are destroyed, and rather than repairing lowering them in quality I think repairing for normal items should go away, and repair npcs should only repair a set list of items such as drow bows and drow swords, things that are not craftable and hence so hard to get that if they would detoriate like normal items people would not use them.

Posted: **Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:27 am**

Any ideas regarding custom items? (Regular items with special description that were handed out as quest rewards or were made with gm-approval.)
Should the holy weapon of God xy or someone's wedding ring deteriorate as well? If not, should the game prevent people collecting themselves a full set of custom equipment, and if, how?

Regarding money:
Should the money gain of fighters be increased with such a change in system? Right now fighters already are behind in the amount of money they gain with the same effort put in. Would a high demand with little money from the buying side be a desirable situation? If not, how and by how much should income of fighters increase?

Should the drop rate for pure elements (which basically is the current currency for magical and religious rituals and therefore already very valuable for many) be increased with higher demand? Personal note: Right now my religious fighter character is broke in regards of elements. Don't tell me elements aren't used.

Posted: **Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:04 pm**

I play a character outlawed by every town, and he isn't broke. There is lots of coin to be made and if that is not enough for you, take up a simple gathering trade. You can't be at war all the time.
If you are concerned about newer characters that also consider themselves as warriors, their cost of doing business is less. Their usable equipment costs much less to repair and replace. Again, take up a simple trade to make up the difference. There is no reason to further help warrior types. They already own the world. Those that need help are the crafters and to more extent, the mage and druid types.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:22 pm**

Hew Keenaxe wrote:T
5) Every craftsman should be able to make any tool needed for their craft. Maybe not a good one, but one they can work with for a short period of time. If they want a better one, then they would also need to learn the skill that makes their tool, or do some trading. A farmer should be able to make something that will cut down their grain. It may wear out quickly, and leave lots of seed on the ground, but they can make do until they can afford better, or learn how to make a better one.

Please don't. It would kill last existing crafter job a toolmaker. My char Titus always buy tools from other chars (he has a noble code which refuse him to do a craft).

Someone wrote about safe paths. Yes I miss it also. My first char spent years with low fighting levels. If it is possible please make every critters like dogs, foxes or slimes to be not agressive creatures (before you attack them first). It makes nervous while you're walking around wilderness and all low level critters are attacking you. Sometimes you must run away from whole forest. It not looks real.

Posted: **Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:01 am**

Mein Englisch ist nicht das Beste also falls ich was falsch verstanden habe sagt Bescheid.

Das lernen bei Handwerken finde ich nicht zu schnell. Ich kann zwar nicht beurteilen wie es bei Charakteren ist die Handwerker Attribute haben, aber bei Charakteren ohne Handwerker Attribute geht es recht langsam voran.
Wenn es noch langsam gehen würde, hätte ich gar keine Lust mehr ein Handwerk zu erlernen.

Edelsteine sollten nicht verloren gehen, wenn Rüstung oder Waffen zerbrechen. Sie sollten in der Stärke erhalten bleiben, in welcher sie eingefügt wurden. Und auch so entfernen lassen.

Handwerker sollten nicht die Werkzeuge welche sie benötigen selbst herstellen können, da sonst der Handel untereinander kaputt geht.

Abgesehen davon stimme ich zu das Kleidung, Werkzeug, Rüstung auch trotz Reperatur langsam immer schlechter werden sollte. Aber langsam, und so das es sich nicht zu stark auf den Wert auswirkt.

Allem Gerede zum Trotz gibt es auch Kämpfer welche nicht einen Berg an Gold haben um sich ständig neue Rüstung kaufen zu können.

Und das ist in dem jetzigen Illarion, in welchem es voller Monster wimmelt nämlich recht wichtig. Da man ständig Rüstung benötigt.

Nehmen wir zB Kämpfer xy hat nicht viel Gold, seine Rüstung ist aber schon so mitgenommen das er bald eine neue benötigt. Um das Geld dafür zu bekommen geht er Monster jagen.
Das ist in Ordnung aber jetzt komme ich zu dem kritischen Punkt. Wenn die Rüstung nicht mehr so gut schützt wird das kämpfen zur Qual.

Man vergisst offenbar das wir nicht mehr wie Früher nur begrenzte Gebiete haben welche mit aggresiven Monster besetzt ist. Sondern Alles rund um die Städte voll davon ist.
Allein der weg zwischen den Städten ist schon sehr gefährlich. Selbst für schon etwas trainierte Kämpfercharaktere.

____________________________________________________

My English is not the best so if I have misunderstood what says about it.

The learning in craft find not too fast .
Although I can not judge as in characters craftsmen 's have attributes , but for players without craftsmen attributes it going rather slowly .

If it would still go slow , I had no desire more a craft to learn .

Gems should not be lost when armor or weapons break . They should remain in force , in which they were inserted . And be removed too.

Craftsman should not have the tools that they need themselves can make , otherwise the trade between them is broken .

Besides, I slowly agree with the clothing, tools , armor despite repair should always be worse . But slowly , and so it is not too much impact on the value .

Despite all the talk despite there are fighters who do not have a mountain of gold to constantly can buy new armor.

Take, for example , fighter xy does not have much gold , but his armor is already broken so he needs a new soon . To get the money he goes chasing monsters .
That's fine but now I come to the critical point . If the armor does not protect so well , which is struggling to torment .

Man apparently forgets that we no longer like the past have limited areas , which is manned by aggressive monsters . Now all around the cities is full of.

Alone the way between cities is very dangerous. Even for somewhat trained fighter characters .

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Make crafting real and valuable

Make crafting real and valuable

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Re: Make crafting real and valuable

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Re: Make crafting real and valuable