Illarion.org

Hello,

currently, this is the effect of wind arrows:
This means that the movement costs of the weapon are decreased, by 1. This is an extremly small decrease, especially considering how archery works scriptwise, and is therefore nearly unnoticeable.

I would like to give wind arrows a proper effect. I would like to hear your ideas. Maybe you have a genius creative idea that we will use. You must not base the effect you propose on the current crafting recipe of wind arrows. Because that is not good. The recipe will be adjusted according to the effect - not vice versa. So you are free to be as creative as you like.

I will start with some two of my own:
- Increase shooting speed. This is - theoretically - what the current state is about. But I want it to be noticeable! Let's say you shoot 50% faster with wind arrows. This would be ceratinly noticeable
- Damage! Wind arrows deal simply more damage then other arrows. Maybe 30%

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Hallo,

das ist der derzeitige Effekt von Windpfeilen:
Das heißt, dass die Bewegugskosten der Waffe gesenk werden, nämlich um 1. Das ist ein sehr geinger Abzug, besonders hin Hinblick darauf, wie die Berechnung für Schützen abläuft, und ist daher nahezu nicht wahrnehmbar.

Ich möchte Windfpeilen einen vernüftigne Effekt geben. Ich möchte eure Ideen hören. Vielleicht hat einer einen genialen Einfall, den wird nutzen können. Ihr sollt dabei nicht das derzeitige Herstellungsrezept berücksichtigen. Das ist nämlich nicht gut. Das Rezept wird dem Effekt entsprechen angepasst - nicht andersrum. Ihr könnt also so kreativ sein, wie ihr wollt.

I will start with some two of my own:
- Increase shooting speed. This is - theoretically - what the current state is about. But I want it to be noticeable! Let's say you shoot 50% faster with wind arrows. This would be ceratinly noticeable.
- Damage! Wind arrows deal simply more damage then other arrows. Maybe 30%

Ich beginne mit ein paar Ideen von mir:
- Schussrate erhöhen. Das ist - zumindest theoretisch - das, was der jetzige Effekt erreichen soll. Aber ich will, dass man das auch merkt! Sagen wir, man ist mit Windpfeilen 50% schneller. Das wäre auf jeden Fall bemerkbar.
- Schaden! Windpfeile machen einafch mehr Schaden als andere. Vielleicht so 30%

My idea for a possible effect for artifact or enchanted bows was x% chance to knockback the target one tile (no stunning)

This would prove incredibly useful to archers considering it would help them keep a distance.

Also I wondering of ways to better the crafting of wind arrows and poisoned arrows. Currently a pure air for only ten arrows is just a waste of a pure air >.<

Mephistopheles wrote:My idea for a possible effect for artifact or enchanted bows was x% chance to knockback the target one tile (no stunning)

This would prove incredibly useful to archers considering it would help them keep a distance.

You loose the target when someone is warped. So this makes it for archers actually worse, I think.

Can that be managed somehow? like a forced untarget when someone is knocked down, or when someone teleports (ie. mage) but keeping a target for sword knockback attacks and then same with the wind arrows?

Just asking if it's possible, if so might be worth considering

I have no idea. But this would require client and/or server changes. So it is nothing we should rely on. An other solution might be to set a low chance but to make the warping back more than just one tile.

Edit: Scratch that. I just read that the target is not lost anymore in the dev client and it is true. So this is an option

I play an archer in another game... my favorite shoot is to place "fear" in the enemy temporarily, they turn around and walk away but eventually come back.

This allows the archer to get one arrow in before being hit, the "walk away" requires the archer to wait a little distance, then can usually get 2-3 more arrows, maybe even a fire arrow in before the target is close again. The walk away also helps 100% if an archer has more then one foe which happens quite frequently in Illarion. You shoot one opponent with the "fear" arrow.. and while they are walking away try to deal with the other because there is a delay in being able to use the "fear" arrow too quickly.


I like your idea of increased speed and strength but it doesn't do much good if you can't keep distance up which is a problem frequently.. and with more then one foe.

maybe some kind of wind against the enemy so he is slowed to half of the movement rate or more, thats not a stun but still usefull for archers. It would be nice to make shooting arrays than, like first shot (or first few shots) a wind arrow to slow than 3-4 normal arrows than wind arrow again and so on, so you dont need to waste tons of expensive arrows when the enemy is already slowed for damage we already have different bows + gems, so i more like additional effects (maybe even some sort of magical effects, wind arrow could silence target, or make it unable to use magic for a few seconds and so on)

Ranwyln wrote:maybe some kind of wind against the enemy so he is slowed to half of the movement rate or more, thats not a stun but still usefull for archers.

Sadly, not possible. We don't have away to slow characters. We can only take all their movepoints away but that stops them from doing anthing.

I think a 'knockdown/stagger' effect would be very cool and useful both to PVM and PVP viability.

A chance (or maybe even a guarantee if the weight/time is in the right balance) of adding "X weight" to a target for Y seconds. Would slow some weaker characters to walk under their newfound burdens or potentially even stand still and recover their composure. Not sure if this is possible without adding an item to the characters' inventory. Maybe just a reduction in strength/agility for a length of time.

Sadly, not possible. We don't have away to slow characters. We can only take all their movepoints away but that stops them from doing anthing.

We have been told time and time again that agility affects how fast we move, so why would ranwlyn's proposal not work? Has this been changed, or has it never worked?

How about on getting hit the arrow randomly spawns several small gusts of wind around the target. These would just be short lived 'hazards' that are slow to move through. Players/Monsters would either need to push through them slowly or run around them, making kiting slightly more viable.

On a related note: (but also adding a proposal)
i would like to refer to Game of thrones(the PC game). In there 3 different arrows are available.
Each having its own effects:
Broad head : Bleeding effect (HP lost with time)
Pierce head: Cripple effect (unable to move but can use distance attacks of any kind)
Blunt head: Knockback (moved back and mini stuns)

I was going to write this up as a new proposal as bringing new arrow types to the game.
Along with wind arrows of the same type having an increased chance of this happening.

But. since i saw this thread, and if the above isnt possible as separate arrows, then:
How about adding all these effects as random occurences to wind arrows.
Also an experience gain to respective skill too (slash, stab, blunt) for the randomn effect.
The gain can be half the experince of the used weapon in the same skill type and level.

Like even if the ranged weapon skill is 60; if a pierce attack happens from the wind arrow and the current stab skill is just 10, then half the experince of a single hit from the lvl 10 dagger is gained (along with the ranged skill ofcourse) .
Am just saying half... if its needed then it can be higher or lower than that. whichever fits.

Lord Arcia wrote:I think a 'knockdown/stagger' effect would be very cool and useful both to PVM and PVP viability.

A chance (or maybe even a guarantee if the weight/time is in the right balance) of adding "X weight" to a target for Y seconds. Would slow some weaker characters to walk under their newfound burdens or potentially even stand still and recover their composure. Not sure if this is possible without adding an item to the characters' inventory. Maybe just a reduction in strength/agility for a length of time.

No, you cannot change the weight of stuff the char is carring. And adding an additional item is not really an option. This would be a rather "dirty" soultion. Lowering strength and agility is possible but that effects not only the moving but also in case the player engages in any kind of comabt. And while one could explain the agility decreasing (wind blows against you), for strength it would seem a bit random.

We have been told time and time again that agility affects how fast we move, so why would ranwlyn's proposal not work? Has this been changed, or has it never worked?

That is true but I read Ranwlyn's idea differently.
A mere reduction of speed would slow the character. But as this will not just effect the movement but also how fast you attack.

The reason for the reduction in strength would be to slow people down. It's a back alley way of slowing someone down, is all. As encumberance rises, our walking/running speeds fall.

Strength and Agility are the key attributes for combat. Give reducing either just a little bit a try on the test server try for controlled pvp. Most probably you will come to the conclusion that either Agility or Strengh reduced to a degree where walking rate is affected is equal to a death sentence.

With some of the proposed attribute reductions an archer-tank team (already very powerful if skillfully applied) would be able to wreck anything not applying the same tactic. Which might not necessarily be a bad thing, if cost/reward for making 'we win'-arrows is balanced.

My personally preferenced idea on the topic: Very high chance of the knockback twohanded cutting weapons currently have.

Question: Isn't the knockback annyoing when more than one char fight against the same enemy? For the archers that is a good thing, but doesn't that annoye close combat fighters?

It is an annoying effect in solo close combat. Less because enemies are out of range all of a sudden (enemies come back easily enough), but more due to the loss of target focus and the clumsiness of re-targeting (a matter I'll have to get myself to write a proper proposal someday).

For arrows the annoyance would not be too bad, I think. If applied in a pair the archer can knock not-targeted or dangerous enemies away from their meele partner. Solo benefits are obvious. The arrows might even reverse the damage dealer/keep enemies at bay roles, giving archery more versatility.
How about a very high knockback chance (I'll randomly throw in one third) and reduced damage done by this kind of arrow by the same rate?

Edit: If the loss of target is not a thing anymore, I would not consider knocked back enemies an annoyance at all.

Q-wert wrote:It is an annoying effect in solo close combat. Less because enemies are out of range all of a sudden (enemies come back easily enough), but more due to the loss of target focus and the clumsiness of re-targeting (a matter I'll have to get myself to write a proper proposal someday).

This doesn't happen anymore! In the dev client, it is already active that you do not loose the target if the target is warped.

Well heck, if that's the case I think a chance of knockback is probably the best solution...

Logrin Parr wrote:Well heck, if that's the case I think a chance of knockback is probably the best solution...

Agreed.

Everyone just loves when a monster is knocked back and then runs straight for the weakest/most hurt person.

What should happen incase the knockback cannot be excecuted because the path behind the target is blocked?

I used my awesome paint skills to draw an awesome picture: http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3907 ... o4_png.htm

In case a knock back should happen, I would say the script should first try to select the field that I marked with 1. In case that is blocked (a big item like a wall or an other char) the script will check 2a and 2b. In case both are valid, it will select one randomly.

But what should happen when fields 1, 2a and 2b are all blocked? The knock back of the two handed blunt weapons will then not warp the character.
The easiest solution would be to have nothing happend. But I do not like this for wind arrows. Ideas?

Idea: If the target is standing with the back to a wall, blast it to the side. No space to the left and right? Blast it towards the player.

edited awesome picture from Jupiter with spelling errors wrote:

But blasting it towards the archer can be a negative effect for the archer. An archer wants to keep the distance. The chance is small enough that this happens... so we might still be ok with that

It would be great if knocked back more then one space as others said...i.e. 3-4 so an archer has time to shoot it using the wind tunnel effect as mentioned then without a clear shot and the monster in an enclosed area. .. the negative effect. Makes the archer have to think and have tactics versus just target.

Perhaps if there's no room for them to be knocked back or too the side, instead of getting pulled towards the archer they're knocked straight up into the air? I.E. a fancy combat emote and extra 'falling' (blunt) damage?

Nice collection of ideas so far.
Enough to introduce half a dozen different ammunition types.

Remember that there are also crossbows and slings, with different basic properties to be dealt with.
For example:
Crossbow has a longer reload delay and an increased damage output.
Sling deals concussion damage.
The different ammunition types might have similiar names, yet would offer slightly different bonuses.

To Topic.
For wind arrows i propose a small strenght bonus when it comes to determining the max. shooting range.
This bonus would not apply to damage dealt.
ALTERNATELY the range could be increased depending on the skill of the archer 1-3 tiles.



@Jupiter:
...shoot 50% faster... ((=>"Light Arrows"; Needs ten additional feathers as components;))
...deal 30% additional damage... ((=>"Heavy Arrows"; Needs five additional copper ingots as components;))

The named %-ammounts are way too much for an ammunition bonus. Impossible to balance.
25% and 15% would already introduce an uncatchable bonus, when two chars with similiar skills, weapon and armour met on the field.
This, my statement on %s , depends on my experiece as a mech pilot though, where the playing is almost purely about tactical skills.


@Mephistopheles:
It is "Leadhead Arrows" what might be fitting. Extremely low armour piercing power. High stopping power.
((Mr.Oldie also names some good examples, below.))
To craft a bunch of wind arrows the worker might additionally need one bucket of white dye and five silver ingots.


@Jupiter:
How about a forced (walking) movement command instead of a warp? ((Even though a warp might be possible by engine.))
A critical hit might force a run command.
Another possibility would be the loss of target for the (attacked) char.


@Achae:
There might be plenty possibilities to use poisons to create "Painful" or "Enervating" Arrows.

If this occurs, then I would suggest at the same turn, that all magical weapons 'flaming' 'magical' 'poison' have some element of effect as well.

Otherwise everyone in the world is going to become an archer.

Increase maximum range by 1 and decrease minimum range by 1.